Customer service

[Nathanael]

So, this is how you run a railroad station:

(1) do not list track/platform numbers until the previous train on that platform has left.

(2) After that, announce track/platform numbers and let people go to the platform on their own.

If there's actually a problem with overcrowding on the platforms, you need to rebuild the station. The "Spanish solution" is to have a boarding platform on one side and a deboarding platform on the other side, which eliminates most conflicts.

 

[MrFSS]

The "Spanish solution" is to have a boarding platform on one side and a deboarding platform on the other side, which eliminates most conflicts.

That's how Disney does it on rides in their parks. Works great!

 

[AlanB]

So, this is how you run a railroad station:

(1) do not list track/platform numbers until the previous train on that platform has left.

(2) After that, announce track/platform numbers and let people go to the platform on their own.

If there's actually a problem with overcrowding on the platforms, you need to rebuild the station. The "Spanish solution" is to have a boarding platform on one side and a deboarding platform on the other side, which eliminates most conflicts.

Unfortunately, at least with Penn Station NY, the only way to do that would be to either lose tracks or acquire more basements and realign the existing tracks. Either of those will be horribly expensive and the first choice would also reduce overall capacity at NYP, something that cannot be afforded.

While it's not part of the plan to my knowledge, I suppose that if/when Penn South gets built that perhaps they could try to rebuild the rest a bit to improve things, but again that would be hugely expensive. And even then things would not be perfect as one must still shoehorn things in around the load bearing columns that support the buildings overhead.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

So, this is how you run a railroad station:

(1) do not list track/platform numbers until the previous train on that platform has left.

(2) After that, announce track/platform numbers and let people go to the platform on their own.

If there's actually a problem with overcrowding on the platforms, you need to rebuild the station. The "Spanish solution" is to have a boarding platform on one side and a deboarding platform on the other side, which eliminates most conflicts.

Unfortunately, at least with Penn Station NY, the only way to do that would be to either lose tracks or acquire more basements and realign the existing tracks. Either of those will be horribly expensive and the first choice would also reduce overall capacity at NYP, something that cannot be afforded.

While it's not part of the plan to my knowledge, I suppose that if/when Penn South gets built that perhaps they could try to rebuild the rest a bit to improve things, but again that would be hugely expensive. And even then things would not be perfect as one must still shoehorn things in around the load bearing columns that support the buildings overhead.

It would seem not worthwhile at NY Penn. Since most trains originate/terminate there, there's a bit of time in between the incoming and outgoing train (assuming it's a quick turnaround as with many NJ Transit trains - i.e. train is not going out to/back from Sunnyside - Usually tracks 1-4). Definitely enough time for the arriving pax. to clear the platform before the newly departing pax. descend on it. Certainly more time if the consist does go out to Sunnyside & back.

The strategy proposed above might be more helpful at busy "non-terminal" stations... Say Newark Penn.

 

[E Runs]

So, this is how you run a railroad station:

(1) do not list track/platform numbers until the previous train on that platform has left.

(2) After that, announce track/platform numbers and let people go to the platform on their own.

If there's actually a problem with overcrowding on the platforms, you need to rebuild the station. The "Spanish solution" is to have a boarding platform on one side and a deboarding platform on the other side, which eliminates most conflicts.

The lack of that configuration is one of the big pitfalls of CUS, especially as it pertains to METRA's operations. There is a plan to rebulid the freight platforms to meet this need, whether it ever happens is a whole other question.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So, this is how you run a railroad station:

(1) do not list track/platform numbers until the previous train on that platform has left.

(2) After that, announce track/platform numbers and let people go to the platform on their own.

If there's actually a problem with overcrowding on the platforms, you need to rebuild the station. The "Spanish solution" is to have a boarding platform on one side and a deboarding platform on the other side, which eliminates most conflicts.

Unfortunately, at least with Penn Station NY, the only way to do that would be to either lose tracks or acquire more basements and realign the existing tracks. Either of those will be horribly expensive and the first choice would also reduce overall capacity at NYP, something that cannot be afforded.

How on earth did they ever manage to build NYP in the first place? Didn't everyone just sit around shaking their heads at the "horrible expense" involved and immediately give up like we do today?

 

[E Runs]

How on earth did they ever manage to build NYP in the first place? Didn't everyone just sit around shaking their heads at the "horrible expense" involved and immediately give up like we do today?

I agree with your train of thought here but NYP was built with private money, that's how. Look no further than the proposal for Washington Union Station for the howling of using all that public money. That said there's no reason it shouldn't be looked in to.

 

[Allypet]

How on earth did they ever manage to build NYP in the first place? Didn't everyone just sit around shaking their heads at the "horrible expense" involved and immediately give up like we do today?

I agree with your train of thought here but NYP was built with private money, that's how. Look no further than the proposal for Washington Union Station for the howling of using all that public money. That said there's no reason it shouldn't be looked in to.

Yes, and it was built in record time using technology that was untested and developed along the way. Today they can't even build a new staircase for NYP in less time.

 

[AlanB]

How on earth did they ever manage to build NYP in the first place? Didn't everyone just sit around shaking their heads at the "horrible expense" involved and immediately give up like we do today?

I agree with your train of thought here but NYP was built with private money, that's how. Look no further than the proposal for Washington Union Station for the howling of using all that public money. That said there's no reason it shouldn't be looked in to.

Yes, and it was built in record time using technology that was untested and developed along the way. Today they can't even build a new staircase for NYP in less time.

Well it is easier to build something when no one is using it and you don't have any buildings that will fall on your head if you screw up.

 

[AlanB]

Unfortunately, at least with Penn Station NY, the only way to do that would be to either lose tracks or acquire more basements and realign the existing tracks. Either of those will be horribly expensive and the first choice would also reduce overall capacity at NYP, something that cannot be afforded.

How on earth did they ever manage to build NYP in the first place? Didn't everyone just sit around shaking their heads at the "horrible expense" involved and immediately give up like we do today?

There is a difference between a "horrible expense" and a "unneeded and unnecessary horrible expense", which is what redoing the entire station would be just to satisfy a few railfans who want to be able to board their trains whenever rather than wait for the announcement.

It may not always be pretty, but Penn Station works and most people don't care about not knowing where their train will board earlier than 10 minutes out. Most people just want the train to be on time.

And then there are the huge delays and reduced service that would come from even trying to rebuild it.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Unfortunately, at least with Penn Station NY, the only way to do that would be to either lose tracks or acquire more basements and realign the existing tracks. Either of those will be horribly expensive and the first choice would also reduce overall capacity at NYP, something that cannot be afforded.

How on earth did they ever manage to build NYP in the first place? Didn't everyone just sit around shaking their heads at the "horrible expense" involved and immediately give up like we do today?

There is a difference between a "horrible expense" and a "unneeded and unnecessary horrible expense", which is what redoing the entire station would be just to satisfy a few railfans who want to be able to board their trains whenever rather than wait for the announcement.

When I speak about improving Penn Station I'm not thinking of a handful of rail fanatics who have already long since analyzed the schedule and boarding process and worked out their own ad hoc solutions. I'm thinking of the uninitiated massed who could not care less about the minutia of passenger rail transportation and simply want a fast, easy, and enjoyable experience. The folks who currently spend their time tirelessly standing and watching and waiting for the big board to announce their track so they can crush the stairs or escalators in their last minute mad dash to the train. In my view those are the folks who would benefit most from an improved Penn Station, not the rail fanatics.

 

[AlanB]

Unfortunately, at least with Penn Station NY, the only way to do that would be to either lose tracks or acquire more basements and realign the existing tracks. Either of those will be horribly expensive and the first choice would also reduce overall capacity at NYP, something that cannot be afforded.

How on earth did they ever manage to build NYP in the first place? Didn't everyone just sit around shaking their heads at the "horrible expense" involved and immediately give up like we do today?

There is a difference between a "horrible expense" and a "unneeded and unnecessary horrible expense", which is what redoing the entire station would be just to satisfy a few railfans who want to be able to board their trains whenever rather than wait for the announcement.

When I speak about improving Penn Station I'm not thinking of a handful of rail fanatics who have already long since analyzed the schedule and boarding process and worked out their own ad hoc solutions. I'm thinking of the uninitiated massed who could not care less about the minutia of passenger rail transportation and simply want a fast, easy, and enjoyable experience. The folks who currently spend their time tirelessly standing and watching and waiting for the big board to announce their track so they can crush the stairs or escalators in their last minute mad dash to the train. In my view those are the folks who would benefit most from an improved Penn Station, not the rail fanatics.

The majority of the people who use Penn Station don't stand around waiting and watching for their track to be announced. They know that their train leaves at X and they run into the station at the 10 minute or less mark, glance at the board and run down to their train. Heck, many of the regulars even know which track their train is going to leave from anyhow, so they don't bother to wait for it to be posted, then just head down.

This is why when a last minute change does happen, you'll often hear the announcer saying over and over again "this is a track change from the normal."

Only Amtrak passengers or infrequent traveler's on the commuter services, bother to get to the station early.

So for the majority of those who use NYP, there is no need for change.

And for the few that do need it, even if we fixed all the other problems noted here, it still wouldn't help simply because if a train lays down somewhere or a switch malfunctions, then you'll have dozens of passengers standing on the wrong platform if they did post tracks 30 minutes in advance.

I won't even get into the idea of standing on a nice hot, humid platform at NYP for 30 minutes just so you can be first to board.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

The majority of the people who use Penn Station don't stand around waiting and watching for their track to be announced. They know that their train leaves at X and they run into the station at the 10 minute or less mark, glance at the board and run down to their train. Heck, many of the regulars even know which track their train is going to leave from anyhow, so they don't bother to wait for it to be posted, then just head down.

This is why when a last minute change does happen, you'll often hear the announcer saying over and over again "this is a track change from the normal."

Only Amtrak passengers or infrequent traveler's on the commuter services, bother to get to the station early.

So for the majority of those who use NYP, there is no need for change.

And for the few that do need it, even if we fixed all the other problems noted here, it still wouldn't help simply because if a train lays down somewhere or a switch malfunctions, then you'll have dozens of passengers standing on the wrong platform if they did post tracks 30 minutes in advance.

I won't even get into the idea of standing on a nice hot, humid platform at NYP for 30 minutes just so you can be first to board.

Hey, I resemble that remark!!!! h34r:

Seriously, as a veteran of NYP rush hours for many years, I learned all the tricks. Some of us regular commuters do get there a little early. One reason might be to capitalize on a the "train prior to your scheduled train" that might be late... But usually, no more than 1/2hr - 45minutes.

Yes, The track announcements normally do not post until 10min. prior to departure, but there are ways to figure out which is your train and on which track. Most NJ Transit trains use Tracks 1-4. But, of course, they can use others during rush hours, especially if the train had to be turned at Sunnyside. Track 13 was a favorite for the 6:16p NJT Midtown direct to Dover (the one I always took) because it was the only 9 car NJ Transit train (back when they were all single level Comet II & III cars), pulled by a tiny little ALP-44. Anyway, I'd usually get there within 45min. of my "scheduled" train to scout around. You could easily peak or walk down slightly the stairs on the west gate side (that leads to the mezz. level) and check out the electronic signs on the trains (assuming they were set for their next run). You could then tell (reasonably) which train was yours and "stand in front to be the first to board! h34r: " Not an exact science, but better than being in the "swarm." (see below)

Sometimes you got to know your operating crew... So if you saw them descend to a particular platform, you discreetly followed them and checked out the train. Sometimes, they'd even be nice about it and announce which track it was before the general posting/announcement.

The funniest thing is rush hour at around 6-7p and having the Sta. fool you as to which track. Some would be waiting at one end of the mezzanine (say track 1-4 area), and when the track posts at the other end (say 13), you see this swam of "killer commuters" attempting to flood the stairwell and crowd each other. Each standing two abreast at each door, just waiting....

Ah, those were the days...

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The majority of the people who use Penn Station don't stand around waiting and watching for their track to be announced. They know that their train leaves at X and they run into the station at the 10 minute or less mark, glance at the board and run down to their train. Heck, many of the regulars even know which track their train is going to leave from anyhow, so they don't bother to wait for it to be posted, then just head down.

Yes, the regulars and long time riders are well served in spite of Penn Station's continued shortcomings. Why would they care what NYP looks like or how it operates when they've already figured out how to avoid spending any time there. Everyone else, well, that's their own problem. They'll figure it out eventually. Or give up trying. Meanwhile, to the uninitiated, we see a dingy subterranean food court full of grouchy staff and needless confusion. It's not surprising to me that this is completely lost on the regulars who would rather defend the perpetual mediocrity they already know rather than to admit there might be a better way they are unfamiliar with.

And for the few that do need it, even if we fixed all the other problems noted here, it still wouldn't help simply because if a train lays down somewhere or a switch malfunctions, then you'll have dozens of passengers standing on the wrong platform if they did post tracks 30 minutes in advance.

Yes, if something breaks then people will be put out, but exactly how often are these switches and trains breaking down? If it's often enough to impact the standard operating procedure then that would seem to be even more of a reason to get busy fixing the whatever is causing so much trouble down there.

 

[Nathanael]

I realize that NY Penn, which has unusually narrow platforms for a major station, may be hard to redesign. The ideal redesign would involve paving over a few of the trackways to make for big, wide platforms; this is actually possible. Currently, in any given moment, a peak LIRR and an off-peak NJT are operating, or a peak NJT and an off-peak LIRR; if these were combined into single lines (North Jersey Coast & Port Washington Line) Penn could operate with far fewer tracks. However, this would require either getting new dual or triple mode railcars, or (better) re-electrifying LIRR with overhead. Even so, it would probably be cheaper than other methods of reconfiguring Penn Station, and would have substantial additional benefits too.

But NY Penn is a special case. Platform overcrowding on Amtrak platforms is certainly not a problem at LA Union or Seattle or Portland or Boston South or most of the other stations where Amtrak engages in the idiotic "gate" procedures. Chicago Union has a need to provide space for redcap carts in addition to arriving and departing passengers, which reduces the effective platform place, but there's got to be a better way to handle it. Hopefully the proposed redsign to benefit Metra can also for improved Amtrak operations as well.

 

[AlanB]

Sigh. Sometimes I feel like that if I said the moon was blue, you'd tell me that it was green just to disagree.

The majority of the people who use Penn Station don't stand around waiting and watching for their track to be announced. They know that their train leaves at X and they run into the station at the 10 minute or less mark, glance at the board and run down to their train. Heck, many of the regulars even know which track their train is going to leave from anyhow, so they don't bother to wait for it to be posted, then just head down.

Yes, the regulars and long time riders are well served in spite of Penn Station's continued shortcomings. Why would they care what NYP looks like or how it operates when they've already figured out how to avoid spending any time there. Everyone else, well, that's their own problem. They'll figure it out eventually. Or give up trying. Meanwhile, to the uninitiated, we see a dingy subterranean food court full of grouchy staff and needless confusion. It's not surprising to me that this is completely lost on the regulars who would rather defend the perpetual mediocrity they already know rather than to admit there might be a better way they are unfamiliar with.

Well the "regulars and long time riders" are the majority of the people who use NYP. If we're using our money wisely, then we cater to the majority. We don't spend Billions that we don't have, waste thousands of hours for those regulars by delaying trains due to unneeded and unnecessary construction, just so as to accommodate the minority who according to you wander around trying to figure everything out.

Amtrak pushes about 60,000 people per weekday through Penn, many of whom are regulars and know the drill. And Amtrak provides most of the casual travelers who might well be confused. The LIRR pushes 300,000 through NYP each day and NJT is probably up around 220,000 or so now.

Would I like to see some improvements to things? Sure. But not at a cost of several billion dollars just to help out perhaps a maximum of the maybe 10,000 confused riders per day.

And for the few that do need it, even if we fixed all the other problems noted here, it still wouldn't help simply because if a train lays down somewhere or a switch malfunctions, then you'll have dozens of passengers standing on the wrong platform if they did post tracks 30 minutes in advance.

Yes, if something breaks then people will be put out, but exactly how often are these switches and trains breaking down? If it's often enough to impact the standard operating procedure then that would seem to be even more of a reason to get busy fixing the whatever is causing so much trouble down there.

Actually most of the problems are trains that breakdown or trains that arrive late for various reasons. Yes, there are switch failures from time to time and an occasional broken rail or power line. And none of that is going to be fixed by spending Billions to rebuild NYP so that people can get downstairs 1 hour before their train to stand around on the platform either freezing in the winter or sweating in the summer.

 

[lthanlon]

Much as I dislike "reality" TV shows, it would be amusing to see Gordon Ramsay ride a long-distance Amtrak train.

 

[Smurf]

Much as I dislike "reality" TV shows, it would be amusing to see Gordon Ramsay ride a long-distance Amtrak train.

I'd PAY to see that!! :giggle:

 

[TimePeace]

I've waited quite a few times at NYP for a train. And although I agree it is not a particularly comfortable station, nor does it offer much in the way of food that interests me, boarding has never seemed like any kind of hassle. I just breathe in, breathe out, smile at folks, and try not to get too uptight or agitated about anything. I have never missed my train there, nor been much inconvenienced.

Sometimes I get over any minor annoyance by helping someone else find their way, or lift a bag or whatever. After all, no matter how bad it gets in this world, there is usually someone around who has it a lot worse than me.