Could Amtrak Subcontract Dining

[sunchaser]

Lets also say they buy 25 sectionals, planning on one per train.

How do you deal with the Empire Builder and LSL splits?

The Empire builder, last time I checked, Joel, does not use Viewliner equipment. In any case, the Boston section just got back having a sleeper. They can live without the Slumbercoach.

You know, while I love Slumbercoach cars, I'm kinda thinking that in todays world, a section sleeper would be more effective. People aren't as privacy oriented when traveling anymore. If you use one roomette space worth for a attendants room on one side, and a pair of bathrooms on the other, a Viewliner could handle 20 sections, which means 40 passengers, 10 more than they currently handle, and probably 15-20 more than they handle on average.

I'm having difficulty with the idea that people aren't as privacy oriented when traveling. When I look at advertising for traveling, I find constant emphasis on privacy. Private balconies on cruise ships. Private pods in first class on airliners. Goodness, the flack I get from the ladies at work when I mention that we stayed in a hotel with the bathroom down the hall. (How often do you use the bathroom, I ask.)

Look at MrFSS's description of the Canadian: "No one ever used them on that trip."

I've traveled in something like a section several times, platskarnyi klass on Soviet trains. It seemed a bit communal to sell to Americans, and I'd be hard-pressed to imagine how Amtrak could offer it for less than the equivalent airfare.

You know, while I love Slumbercoach cars, I'm kinda thinking that in todays world, a section sleeper would be more effective. People aren't as privacy oriented when traveling anymore.

That's a sort of bizarre thing to say.

Privacy is becoming more and more of an expectation in American society; what have you seen that leads you to believe travel is exempt from this?

If nothing else, the generation of kids beginning to graduate from college right now are extremely concerned with their physical privacy (online... that's another matter, interestingly enough), with seems to put an expiration date on travel options that deemphasize privacy. Even if the current crop of riders are less concerned with privacy, eventually it will be time for the new generation to take their place, and I believe they'd respond much better to Slumbercoaches.

To the above and others, I reply that you are wrong. How am I suggesting we sell this? I am suggesting Amtrak sells this as a per-seat upgrade for about the same as Business class. For this you get a bed on which you can lay horizontal. People would be willing to pay for the chance to sleep horizontally. If you want privacy, that costs extra. You pay $113 for coach, $165 for a section, $303 for a roomette, and $582 for a Bedroom. Two people would make more sense in a roomette, I admit- $330 for a section verses $416 in a roomette.

Bet you Amtrak can fill the car every time.

University? Puh-lease. There is a VERY different dynamic staying in a curtained-off section for a night on a train and sharing a room for months on end in university!

$582 for a bedroom? Ouch! Of course with the bucket system that is very possible. I prefer a bit lower start price.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

$582 for a bedroom? Ouch! Of course with the bucket system that is very possible. I prefer a bit lower start price.

No, the bedroom is $469. That's the accommodation plus one rail fare. $469 is low bucket. All prices are. Sample paring, which I should have mentioned, is New York to Orlando.

 

[sunchaser]

$582 for a bedroom? Ouch! Of course with the bucket system that is very possible. I prefer a bit lower start price.

No, the bedroom is $469. That's the accommodation plus one rail fare. $469 is low bucket. All prices are. Sample paring, which I should have mentioned, is New York to Orlando.

oh, ok. Makes more sense now. I'm sure at least one of the bedrooms we booked was close to that, but it was not low bucket. I watched the prices climb steadily as we saved for the trip. If we had booked 11 months ahead, I know it would have been much cheaper. But we didn't decide back then.

 

[volkris]

You know, while I love Slumbercoach cars, I'm kinda thinking that in todays world, a section sleeper would be more effective. People aren't as privacy oriented when traveling anymore.

That's a sort of bizarre thing to say.

Privacy is becoming more and more of an expectation in American society; what have you seen that leads you to believe travel is exempt from this?

If nothing else, the generation of kids beginning to graduate from college right now are extremely concerned with their physical privacy (online... that's another matter, interestingly enough), with seems to put an expiration date on travel options that deemphasize privacy. Even if the current crop of riders are less concerned with privacy, eventually it will be time for the new generation to take their place, and I believe they'd respond much better to Slumbercoaches.

To the above and others, I reply that you are wrong.

Great. How about some facts to back up your disagreement?

We have reams and reams of data, studies, polling, and research showing that the culture is becoming more and more privacy oriented, expecting more and more privacy, and growing up with much more privacy than they had in the past... So based on what, exactly, do you claim that "People aren't as privacy oriented when traveling anymore"?

It's one thing to say that with prices low enough people will put up with a lack of privacy; it's quite another to suggest that they won't mind.

 

[VentureForth]

Quick non-scientific, purely capitalistic research shows that San Francisco has at least 323 overnight accomodation facilities. Of those, 29 (9%) of the properties are considered "Specialty Lodging" which is where the less-private Hostels are lumped. Considering that there are a vastly larger volume of beds in traditional hotel/motel and B&Bs, I would guess that the actual number of "less privacy oriented" beds is less than 1%.

For another data point, NYC is much more progressive that San Francisco (if you can believe that) with 100 out of 566 properties (18%) considered "Specialty Lodging".

I'd venture to say that personal space and privacy is still the overwhelming majority preference in the US.

 

[Hamhock]

Regardless of how much or little people want privacy, shared "curtained-off" or "door/wall compartment" accommodations with strangers on Amtrak would last until the first rape, assault, or lawsuit based on either occurred. It's just easier not to bother with the trouble. Slumbercoaches sleeping one, however, offer little chance of said happening, as do roomettes/bedrooms shared by traveling partners.

 

[frj1983]

You know, while I love Slumbercoach cars, I'm kinda thinking that in todays world, a section sleeper would be more effective. People aren't as privacy oriented when traveling anymore.

That's a sort of bizarre thing to say.

Privacy is becoming more and more of an expectation in American society; what have you seen that leads you to believe travel is exempt from this?

If nothing else, the generation of kids beginning to graduate from college right now are extremely concerned with their physical privacy (online... that's another matter, interestingly enough), with seems to put an expiration date on travel options that deemphasize privacy. Even if the current crop of riders are less concerned with privacy, eventually it will be time for the new generation to take their place, and I believe they'd respond much better to Slumbercoaches.

To the above and others, I reply that you are wrong.

Great. How about some facts to back up your disagreement?

We have reams and reams of data, studies, polling, and research showing that the culture is becoming more and more privacy oriented, expecting more and more privacy, and growing up with much more privacy than they had in the past... So based on what, exactly, do you claim that "People aren't as privacy oriented when traveling anymore"?

It's one thing to say that with prices low enough people will put up with a lack of privacy; it's quite another to suggest that they won't mind.

Volkris,

Who is we?

And despite your contention, I don't see the airlines doing anything to make seats more private for their customers...too expensive. So if people want to fly/ride, they'll have to get over themselves! I think, what we might see, is that the younger generation will travel less on public transportation because of their "privacy" phobia! That's OK with me, more seats/rooms available for the rest of us!!!

 

[sunchaser]

Regardless of how much or little people want privacy, shared "curtained-off" or "door/wall compartment" accommodations with strangers on Amtrak would last until the first rape, assault, or lawsuit based on either occurred. It's just easier not to bother with the trouble. Slumbercoaches sleeping one, however, offer little chance of said happening, as do roomettes/bedrooms shared by traveling partners.

Point taken. I really did not consider that as a possibility.

Well, whatever choice would be made by Amtrak, I assume that would be a consideration as well.

Now we are back to Slumbercoaches again!

I have seen a few photos of them, but who knows how many are left or if Amtrak would want to reinstate them.

Maybe the other alternative could be just adding more sleepers (refurb/repair to start) & then dropping the prices a bit.

They would still generate extra revenue.

 

[Ryan]

Point taken. I really did not consider that as a possibility.

That's because it's not a realistic possibility. You don't hear of that happening on trains now because crime on a train is colossally stupid. Say you are raped or assaulted. You report it to someone (problably not likely, because there's nowhere on a train where that will go unnoticed). Guess what happens then? Your assailant is trapped inside a metal tube with you traveling at 79 MPH. The conductor walks the train with you, you point out the assailant and he's handed to the cops at the next grade crossing.

 

[volkris]

Who is we?

The most visible of the "we" might be the colleges around the country who, based on analysis of the data from a range of people including academics, politicians, bean counters, and other businesspeople--have decided to invest billions of dollars to change the way they operate in part to give people the increased privacy they're demanding.

So that's a lot of smart people putting real money on the line based on their confidence in the data that people are increasingly interested in privacy. What do you have showing that they're not?

And despite your contention, I don't see the airlines doing anything to make seats more private for their customers...too expensive. So if people want to fly/ride, they'll have to get over themselves! I think, what we might see, is that the younger generation will travel less on public transportation because of their "privacy" phobia! That's OK with me, more seats/rooms available for the rest of us!!!

Believe it or not, there are some differences between air flight and rail services...

Anyway, there won't be more seats and rooms available for long once they start cutting services due to lack of demand. Turning away customers is no way to run an organization.

 

[Hamhock]

That's because it's not a realistic possibility. You don't hear of that happening on trains now because crime on a train is colossally stupid. Say you are raped or assaulted. You report it to someone (problably not likely, because there's nowhere on a train where that will go unnoticed). Guess what happens then? Your assailant is trapped inside a metal tube with you traveling at 79 MPH. The conductor walks the train with you, you point out the assailant and he's handed to the cops at the next grade crossing.

No assault/rape victim ever gets rendered unconscious beforehand? Or encounters a "they held a knife to my throat and said if I made a sound..." situation?

Also, that's why I added lawsuits to the list, to cover alleged crimes that may not actually have occurred... "I was assaulted by unknown passenger I was 'forced' to share accommodations with; Amtrak is at fault", etc...

 

[jis]

No assault/rape victim ever gets rendered unconscious beforehand? Or encounters a "they held a knife to my throat and said if I made a sound..." situation?
Also, that's why I added lawsuits to the list, to cover alleged crimes that may not actually have occurred... "I was assaulted by unknown passenger I was 'forced' to share accommodations with; Amtrak is at fault", etc...

I just wonder why such problems do not already occur in Coach. Afterall, one is forced to share a pair of seats with a stranger if one is traveling alone and the train is full. How far would a coach seat have to recline back before it becomes an issue in this regard? Would installing lie flat reclining seats like in planes cause this problem to arise, even though it appears to be absent in Coach today? Just curious. I don't know the answer.

 

[Neil_M]

No assault/rape victim ever gets rendered unconscious beforehand? Or encounters a "they held a knife to my throat and said if I made a sound..." situation?
Also, that's why I added lawsuits to the list, to cover alleged crimes that may not actually have occurred... "I was assaulted by unknown passenger I was 'forced' to share accommodations with; Amtrak is at fault", etc...

I just wonder why such problems do not already occur in Coach. Afterall, one is forced to share a pair of seats with a stranger if one is traveling alone and the train is full. How far would a coach seat have to recline back before it becomes an issue in this regard? Would installing lie flat reclining seats like in planes cause this problem to arise, even though it appears to be absent in Coach today? Just curious. I don't know the answer.

Maybe people just feel more vulnerable when sleeping in a confined sleeping space like a roomette, and they are probably wearing less clothing anyway,maybe its just all in the mind.

 

[Ryan]

That's because it's not a realistic possibility. You don't hear of that happening on trains now because crime on a train is colossally stupid. Say you are raped or assaulted. You report it to someone (problably not likely, because there's nowhere on a train where that will go unnoticed). Guess what happens then? Your assailant is trapped inside a metal tube with you traveling at 79 MPH. The conductor walks the train with you, you point out the assailant and he's handed to the cops at the next grade crossing.

No assault/rape victim ever gets rendered unconscious beforehand? Or encounters a "they held a knife to my throat and said if I made a sound..." situation?

Also, that's why I added lawsuits to the list, to cover alleged crimes that may not actually have occurred... "I was assaulted by unknown passenger I was 'forced' to share accommodations with; Amtrak is at fault", etc...

Any of that could happen in coach (in a bathroom) or in a sleeper now, yet we see that it doesn't.

The bottom line is that a train is a confined space where the identity of all onboard is known. It's a crappy place to commit a crime, and criminals are smart enough to realize that fact.

 

[sunchaser]

That's because it's not a realistic possibility. You don't hear of that happening on trains now because crime on a train is colossally stupid. Say you are raped or assaulted. You report it to someone (problably not likely, because there's nowhere on a train where that will go unnoticed). Guess what happens then? Your assailant is trapped inside a metal tube with you traveling at 79 MPH. The conductor walks the train with you, you point out the assailant and he's handed to the cops at the next grade crossing.

No assault/rape victim ever gets rendered unconscious beforehand? Or encounters a "they held a knife to my throat and said if I made a sound..." situation?

Also, that's why I added lawsuits to the list, to cover alleged crimes that may not actually have occurred... "I was assaulted by unknown passenger I was 'forced' to share accommodations with; Amtrak is at fault", etc...

Any of that could happen in coach (in a bathroom) or in a sleeper now, yet we see that it doesn't.

The bottom line is that a train is a confined space where the identity of all onboard is known. It's a crappy place to commit a crime, and criminals are smart enough to realize that fact.

Duh on my part. You are on a train! Where can they go? Even if something like that did occur, they will not manage to escape unless they did it right before a stop & was able to exit the train. The average criminal is not that organized to time something like that. I realize it can be more common on a bus or subway, I don't think I've ever heard of anything like that on the train. Except of course, 'Murder on the Orient Express'!

 

[AlanB]

I realize it can be more common on a bus or subway, I don't think I've ever heard of anything like that on the train. Except of course, 'Murder on the Orient Express'!

It's not very common on a subway either, in fact I'm not sure that I've ever heard of a report in the NYC subway where someone was raped on the train. There have been gropings and improper touching and such, but usually any one whose been raped in association with a subway was followed off the train and raped some place else, be it the station or a park or a dark alley or their own apartment.

 

[jackal]

And despite your contention, I don't see the airlines doing anything to make seats more private for their customers...too expensive. So if people want to fly/ride, they'll have to get over themselves! I think, what we might see, is that the younger generation will travel less on public transportation because of their "privacy" phobia! That's OK with me, more seats/rooms available for the rest of us!!!

That's because in an airline coach seat (or in an Amtrak coach seat, for that matter), you're still in a semi-upright position, probably not sleeping very heavily, and fully clothed and visible to everyone else in the car.

In a curtained-off sleeping compartment, you're lying down flat, very well could be sleeping quite heavily, at least semi-undressed, and with all of the curtains closed, no one could see what anyone else does to you.

And actually, airlines are doing things to make their seats more private for their customers. My British Airways First Class seat was actually a semi-enclosed sleeping pod, and the seats were arranged in such a way that no one else could see me unless I stood up or poked my head out from around the side of the seat. Some even nicer airlines are actually installing fully enclosed suites for their first-class passengers (Singapore, I believe, on their new A380s, and possibly Emirates, too). Granted, these come at a price far above any Amtrak bedroom (in the tens of thousands per trip)...

 

[jis]

And actually, airlines are doing things to make their seats more private for their customers. My British Airways First Class seat was actually a semi-enclosed sleeping pod, and the seats were arranged in such a way that no one else could see me unless I stood up or poked my head out from around the side of the seat. Some even nicer airlines are actually installing fully enclosed suites for their first-class passengers (Singapore, I believe, on their new A380s, and possibly Emirates, too). Granted, these come at a price far above any Amtrak bedroom (in the tens of thousands per trip)...

True about First Class. But all of them offer lie flat seats in Business Class which are much less "protected and private". The number of Business Class seats on any given flight is at least 2 to 3 times in number compared to First Class seats, so clearly there are 2 to 3 times the number of people willing to be exposed in such ways. And of course I have never heard of anyone undressing to go to sleep on those lie flat seats.

Also, having traveled a lot in couchettes and open sections in other parts of the world, I have never come across people who undress before going to sleep in such accommodation, and yet they prefer such over coach seats. As a matter of fact sagging ridership on overnight air-conditioned trains was reversed in India only after coaches were completely gotten rid of and replaced with open sections, or their equivalent. People simply refused to be stuck in seats for the overnight. Of course the original idea of coach for overnight was borrowed from the US, and it did not work at all. I guess it is all in how people relate totheir fellow human beings in a culture.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You are thinking of this wrong. Its not a downgrade from a roomette, its an upgrade from a coach seat. How many of you people who actually think I am wrong frequently overnight in coach?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

You are thinking of this wrong. Its not a downgrade from a roomette, its an upgrade from a coach seat. How many of you people who actually think I am wrong frequently overnight in coach?

I overnight in coach often and rarely can justify the cost of a roomette unless I have a second traveling with me-- which I never do... so I do agree, your idea sounds (at the very least) intriguing.

 

[jackal]

And actually, airlines are doing things to make their seats more private for their customers. My British Airways First Class seat was actually a semi-enclosed sleeping pod, and the seats were arranged in such a way that no one else could see me unless I stood up or poked my head out from around the side of the seat. Some even nicer airlines are actually installing fully enclosed suites for their first-class passengers (Singapore, I believe, on their new A380s, and possibly Emirates, too). Granted, these come at a price far above any Amtrak bedroom (in the tens of thousands per trip)...

True about First Class. But all of them offer lie flat seats in Business Class which are much less "protected and private". The number of Business Class seats on any given flight is at least 2 to 3 times in number compared to First Class seats, so clearly there are 2 to 3 times the number of people willing to be exposed in such ways. And of course I have never heard of anyone undressing to go to sleep on those lie flat seats.

Well, BA gave me pajamas (pyjamas, I suppose I should say! )...and I'd say pretty much everyone in the cabin changed into those before going to bed!

 

[jis]

Well, BA gave me pajamas (pyjamas, I suppose I should say! )...and I'd say pretty much everyone in the cabin changed into those before going to bed!

In Business Class? I was not talking of First Class.

 

[volkris]

You are thinking of this wrong. Its not a downgrade from a roomette, its an upgrade from a coach seat. How many of you people who actually think I am wrong frequently overnight in coach?

No, it's not about upgrades or downgrades. It's about perceptions of value and the number of people who would pay for the various options versus their costs.

Given that overnighting in coach isn't a horrible experience, how much more could you charge for the slight upgrade to a flat bed? Would you be able to charge enough people a big enough premium to justify the cost of offering the option? Then consider the option of a slumbercoach type setup: the premium can be higher since you're offering not only the slight upgrade to a flat bed but also the increased perception of privacy, the perception of safety, and the perception of ownership of an area. Yes, those are only perceptions, but in the end perception is all that matters. Anyway, it's a very different equation.

 

[jackal]

Well, BA gave me pajamas (pyjamas, I suppose I should say! )...and I'd say pretty much everyone in the cabin changed into those before going to bed!

In Business Class? I was not talking of First Class.

Ah, sorry. No, it was in First Class. I don't know what the minions back in Business Class (Club World) do--I don't ever lower myself down to that level!

 

[Konrad]

Well, BA gave me pajamas (pyjamas, I suppose I should say! )...and I'd say pretty much everyone in the cabin changed into those before going to bed!

In Business Class? I was not talking of First Class.

Ah, sorry. No, it was in First Class. I don't know what the minions back in Business Class (Club World) do--I don't ever lower myself down to that level!

Qantas and BA offer pyjamas to Business travellers. I have even seen them change in the lounge pre-flight (Qantas Club privileges allow one to watch the ruling classes). Of course, these are 10 to 14 hour flights leaving well after sunset.