Cost for bigger tunnels in the Northeast?

[andersone]

As usual I failed to clearly make my point. What I envisioned is something like Emeryville outside NYC . The LD traffic could go straight through without a tunnel and the NYC traffic could be moved in another manner,,, bused?

 

[MikefromCrete]

As usual I failed to clearly make my point. What I envisioned is something like Emeryville outside NYC . The LD traffic could go straight through without a tunnel and the NYC traffic could be moved in another manner,,, bused?

So you looking at pre-1900 conditions where trains would stop short of the nation's largest city to transfer passengers to ferries or buses? All to accommodate double-deck train cars? Sounds like a real bad idea to me. Single-level Amtrak trains and two-level commuter cars are working fine now. No needed to spend billions and billions to accommodate Superliners or halt every thing on the Jersey shore.

 

[cirdan]

As usual I failed to clearly make my point. What I envisioned is something like Emeryville outside NYC . The LD traffic could go straight through without a tunnel and the NYC traffic could be moved in another manner,,, bused?

But one of the biggest strengths of inter city rail (especially when compared to airlines) is that it is downtown to downtown. I think you would end up losing a lot of the business traffic if you started bussing them and thus needlessly extending journey times while introducing unnecessary discomfort.

Emeryville is a necessary compromise. But HSR proposals will see downtown San Francisco served and not Emeryville, as this is where the real traffic potential is.

 

[jis]

The currently planned clearance is 16'4" between TOR, and wire. This is insufficient to accommodate 16'2" tall (TOR to highest point of the roof) Superliners and there are no plans to even try. The reason for the 16'+ clearance is to make it possible for electric equipment to lower pantographs in tunnel without danger of sustained arcing. At present they are not allowed to lower pantograph in many part of the underground sections, which is not very desirable.

First the Gateway tunnel box being built is designed for double deck cars taller than present superliners. So we can expect that the Gateway tunnels will have at least the same clearance. The Penn south station design also has this clearance height. Naturally these cars could not go onto the present NYP tracks 1 - 29.

The planned #5 & #6 East river tunnel design also has the same clearance height. The Harold interlocking underpass of the LIRR also is being built for this height. Sunnyside yard CAT definitely would need to be raised.

One of the senior project managers at Amtrak that I talked to seems to disagree with you regarding Gateway and clearances. The clearance height according to him TOR to wire is 16'4".

BTW, NYP does not have any track numbered greater than 21.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

The freight companies, if nothing else -- they would stand to reap huge savings. I bet they have done so, actually; I just can't find it.

I think you are overstating the amount of Freight that gets moved on the NEC from what I understand its very minimal and only in a few spots.

 

[cirdan]

As long as we are contemplating the impossible, wouldn't it be nice if the Autotrain came all the way up to at least NY or NJ, not to mention Boston? But with the height of those auto carriers, that is really dreaming.

I think if there was a market for Florida to Boston, then there would also be a case for extending at least one of the Silvers to Boston.

I wonder if this has ever been considered?

 

[jis]

It is possible that in the early Amtrak days they just retained the through car to Boston from one of the Silvers or the Champion. Need to check the 1971-72 timetables to be sure.

Extending a whole Silver would be just adding a lot of miles for a few cars worth of passengers at most while taking away a precious slot out of the 39 from a much more needed Corridor train. So won;t happen.

 

[John Bobinyec]

It is possible that in the early Amtrak days they just retained the through car to Boston from one of the Silvers or the Champion. Need to check the 1971-72 timetables to be sure.

Extending a whole Silver would be just adding a lot of miles for a few cars worth of passengers at most while taking away a precious slot out of the 39 from a much more needed Corridor train. So won;t happen.

Slot?

jb

 

[Ryan]

There are only a certain number of trains allowed over the drawbridges in CT. Amtrak can run 39 trains, so the extension of any LD train would mean the cut of a regional train (unless you coupled them together, and that ain't happening at NYP).

I don't see any through car action to BOS in the first system timetable, but perhaps I missed it.

 

[John Bobinyec]

There are only a certain number of trains allowed over the drawbridges in CT. Amtrak can run 39 trains, so the extension of any LD train would mean the cut of a regional train (unless you coupled them together, and that ain't happening at NYP).

Is that by agreement with Connecticut DOT? Coast Guard regulations? Or what? What's the basis of it - wear and tear on the bridges, delays to maritime traffic...?

jb

 

[Ryan]

Coasties. It's so the pesky trains don't cause too much of an inconvenience to the rich folks who want to take their boats out to play.

 

[jis]

There are only a certain number of trains allowed over the drawbridges in CT. Amtrak can run 39 trains, so the extension of any LD train would mean the cut of a regional train (unless you coupled them together, and that ain't happening at NYP).

Is that by agreement with Connecticut DOT? Coast Guard regulations? Or what? What's the basis of it - wear and tear on the bridges, delays to maritime traffic...?

jb

That was the agreement with the Coast Guard and the rich Connecticut boat owners, who cannot stand to be delayed by any more than 39 trains. It stands effectively until Connecticut legislature or Governor decides that they want to change it, and get the Coast Guard and Amtrak to agrees to the change.

 

[afigg]

There are only a certain number of trains allowed over the drawbridges in CT. Amtrak can run 39 trains, so the extension of any LD train would mean the cut of a regional train (unless you coupled them together, and that ain't happening at NYP).

Is that by agreement with Connecticut DOT? Coast Guard regulations? Or what? What's the basis of it - wear and tear on the bridges, delays to maritime traffic...?

To be clear, the 39 trains a day limit applies to the Shore Line East segment, east of New Haven. The limit is total number of trains running both ways for Amtrak. If you check the Amtrak schedule, you will see 19 trains from BOS to NYP and 19 trains from NYP to BOS on weekdays. In comparison, there are twice as many Regionals and Acelas on weekdays operating between NYP and WAS on the southern half of the NEC. The 39 train limit applies specifically to Amtrak and has become a bottleneck for adding more BOS-NYP service. There are also 12 SLE service trains and up to 6 freight trains a day operating on some portion of the Shore Line East tracks.
IIRC, Amtrak has an agreement with MNRR and CDOT to allow 48 trains a day on the New Haven Line. Which covers the Vermonter and the Springfield regionals.

In the 2014 Environmental Assessment for the CT River Bridge replacement, Amtrak's service plan for 2030 has 50 Amtrak trains a day total running across a replacement CT River bridge. With the additional trains all being Acelas, no additional Regionals. So there are long range plans to increase service frequency along the SLE, but I don't know if all the players are on-board with that plan.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

I wonder how much more economical it is to actually run super liners. When you consider all of the costs involved in having two equipment types is that 30% increase in capacity really worth it?

I wonder this too. I love the Superliners and would be upset if my beloved CL didn't have them, but I do question their existence in the first place.

The Superliners work fine where they are used. There's no need to have the same equipment on every train in the system. They will never be used on trains using the NEC. That shouldn't rule out their use where clearances permit.

But that still doesn't answer why they were built instead of just more one level, low height cars when the time came to buy them. What was the "buy these taller ones that are sort of like two levels but not really bilevels" kicker back in the 80s?

 

[Ryan]

The Superliners weren't really a new invention, just a modification/extension to the Hi-Levels that the Sante Fe had built.

 

[Thirdrail7]

As long as we are contemplating the impossible, wouldn't it be nice if the Autotrain came all the way up to at least NY or NJ, not to mention Boston? But with the height of those auto carriers, that is really dreaming.

I think if there was a market for Florida to Boston, then there would also be a case for extending at least one of the Silvers to Boston.

I wonder if this has ever been considered?

When Warrington was president, he considered moving the Auto Train to Odenton and the Silvers to Boston. However, money was an issue. The bridge slots through CT didn't have an impact since the Acela service wasn't in play.

It was considered though.

The currently planned clearance is 16'4" between TOR, and wire. This is insufficient to accommodate 16'2" tall (TOR to highest point of the roof) Superliners and there are no plans to even try. The reason for the 16'+ clearance is to make it possible for electric equipment to lower pantographs in tunnel without danger of sustained arcing. At present they are not allowed to lower pantograph in many part of the underground sections, which is not very desirable.

First the Gateway tunnel box being built is designed for double deck cars taller than present superliners. So we can expect that the Gateway tunnels will have at least the same clearance. The Penn south station design also has this clearance height. Naturally these cars could not go onto the present NYP tracks 1 - 29.

The planned #5 & #6 East river tunnel design also has the same clearance height. The Harold interlocking underpass of the LIRR also is being built for this height. Sunnyside yard CAT definitely would need to be raised.

One of the senior project managers at Amtrak that I talked to seems to disagree with you regarding Gateway and clearances. The clearance height according to him TOR to wire is 16'4".

BTW, NYP does not have any track numbered greater than 21.

They have made modifications to the electric fleet so that all Amtrak engines may lower/raise their pantographs in the tunnels, stations and other low wire areas. I believe the NJT ALP-45s are equipped with MCB switches as well. I'm not sure about the 46s or 46As and the MUs are definitely not equipped so they are governed by the old instruction that requires permission from the power director.

That being said, I agree with everyone else. The actual tunnels are almost the least of your worries. It is everything else from platform heights to wires, cat poles and bridges.

However, as the railroad is being rebuilt in sections, it would be nice if people looked towards the future.

 

[CCC1007]

I thought that the limit was on metro north.

 

[Ryan]

When Warrington was president, he considered moving the Auto Train to Odenton

As an Odenton resident, I endorse this plan.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

When Warrington was president, he considered moving the Auto Train to Odenton

As an Odenton resident, I endorse this plan.

Thought you might.

 

[ScottRu]

I realize that hoping for the Autotrain to come to me in Boston is asking too much. The idea of the Silvers coming up this way is certainly appealing, perhaps a 'piece' of a train like the Lake Shore Ltd or the Empire Builder, which would 'join' the main train at Penn.

It is so much more pleasant when we go west and can load our LD train at South Station. When we go south we don't mind the regional to NYC and the stay in the Acela Club in NYC. But coming back there is always the distinct possibility that we will miss our connection.

Oh well, on 2/6 we will once again be on our way to Orlando via Regional and Silver Meteor. We consider that our vacations begin when we step foot on the train.