Cab Cams an "invastion of privacy"???

[MattW]

Its unlawfull for anyone, not holding a valid Locomotive Engineers certificate to occupy the engineers seat or operate a locomotive, unless inside a private property (factory or such)

Just for clarification what is private property in this case? I thought just about all trackage in the U.S. IS private except for the NEC, part of Michigan track, and some track near stations owned by Amtrak. You say "factory or such" but RR is private, factory is private...seriously, what's the difference here?

Before anyone jumps on me, please go a few posts back and read my stance on a regular person at the controls.

 

[oldtimer]

How about the legal aspect of an inward pointing camera when the train is involved in a grade crossing incident. I believe that in a lawsuit this tape/hard-drive would have to be turned over as it would by called an item subject to "discovery". The actions of the operator would be questioned in court and if negligence were found there is the possibility that the operator would face criminal charges.

If his actions were in any way questioned IE he made a full service brake application first then an emergency application versus a initial emergency application I am sure that negligence would be brought out.

All you engineers here; How many times have you done this?

As for being on camera if you are in an Amtrak yard or maintenance facility you are on camera except when you are in locker rooms or restrooms. They know when you going the locker room or lunchroom. They have on record all moves made in the yard and it is not only downloadable but in some cases your supervisors can even log on at home and see you. I personally know that this info can be used in an investigation against you. When you sit there and see 3 different views of you doing something you cannot deny it!

Amtrak employees should also know that every road vehicle that Amtrak uses is being tracked with a hidden GPS system and its location is known at all times. This too has been used to assess discipline.

 

[RTOlson]

It is an interesting issue and I hope it is certainly debated at length. While there are obvious pros (including better documentation of incidents), there are also a large number of cons (possibility of abuse). I would hope that a vigorous debate would lead to a decent compromise.

I would love to be behind the controls of a locomotive, but lacking the proper training, I would rather do in the relatively safe confines of a historical museum (like the Western Pacific Railroad Museum in Portola, Calif.).

As for live monitoring, it is possible to stream video over a cell phone (or using a computer and a cellular data connection). Web sites like UStream.TV and Livestream are two sites that specialize in such things for the average Web user.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

If they want to take the risk upon themselves of violating the rules and letting an unauthorized person in the cab or committing some other violation, then that is their decision.

If an engineer, operating on a entirely separated right of way behind a fence wants to take upon themselves the risk of letting a nincompoop like you operate a train, my hat comes off to them- and to Charles Darwin.

But if that engineer does that when his locomotive is attached to a train that I happen to be riding on, or on a train on the same line that I happen to be riding on, I would like to drag his sorry arse out of his cab, and kick him all the way down his bloody train and back again.

I don't care about your life. If you have this reckless and selfish disregard for the safety of other people, perhaps I'd even lean in the other direction slightly. But I do not care to have you endanger mine, or have some jerk off of an engineer facilitate your so doing.

I'm not interested in red light cameras, and since your slippery slope was a logical fallacy, I'll leave you to your visions of the riches New York skims from those poor red light runners. Me, I'm always happy for local government to extract more money from people who break laws.

It really makes it easy to ignore an argument by simply dismissing it, without reason, as a fallacy, doesn't it? Do better.

Secondly, rules are often written in blood. Others are written to cover peoples asses so that the railroad can transfer blame from themselves to other people. I'm sure Jay and others would be willing to cite examples of rules that are intended to simply further managements goals rather then actually accomplish safer running.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Its unlawfull for anyone, not holding a valid Locomotive Engineers certificate to occupy the engineers seat or operate a locomotive, unless inside a private property (factory or such)

Just for clarification what is private property in this case? I thought just about all trackage in the U.S. IS private except for the NEC, part of Michigan track, and some track near stations owned by Amtrak. You say "factory or such" but RR is private, factory is private...seriously, what's the difference here?

Before anyone jumps on me, please go a few posts back and read my stance on a regular person at the controls.

Private property in this case is any railroad not being part of general railway system of USA.

A general railroad system falls under Federal Railroad Administration guidelines and laws.

And those CFR 49 laws are making it ilegal for anyone without a Locomotive Engineers licence to operate a locomotive.

Even engineer trainees get a licence before being let loose for on the Job training, after having passed Airbrake and rules training.

 

[Amtrak839]

If they want to take the risk upon themselves of violating the rules and letting an unauthorized person in the cab or committing some other violation, then that is their decision.

If an engineer, operating on a entirely separated right of way behind a fence wants to take upon themselves the risk of letting a nincompoop like you operate a train, my hat comes off to them- and to Charles Darwin.

But if that engineer does that when his locomotive is attached to a train that I happen to be riding on, or on a train on the same line that I happen to be riding on, I would like to drag his sorry arse out of his cab, and kick him all the way down his bloody train and back again.

I don't care about your life. If you have this reckless and selfish disregard for the safety of other people, perhaps I'd even lean in the other direction slightly. But I do not care to have you endanger mine, or have some jerk off of an engineer facilitate your so doing.

Really GML, name calling? Do you really care that much about what some kid on an internet forum says? I think the picture below applies to you.

I do not care that you do not care about my life. I do not care about yours. I do not care what you or anyone else here thinks of me.

<----GML???

Let's review what I've said here:

1. I do not think there should be inward facing cameras in locomotive cabs for privacy reasons (this is my logical reason).

2. I (selfishly and illogically) hope that cameras are not installed, as I would not feel comfortable taking a cab ride with a camera watching me. I would enjoy a cab ride, and would take one if offered, but I do not seek opportunities for them. If I were in the cab, and the engineer offered to let me take the throttle for a moment, with him/her supervising, I would. I do not seek opportunities to do this either.

Now why is it that I am labeled as a threat to public safety? The odds of me ever getting a cab ride are tiny. The odds of me ever taking the throttle of a locomotive are minuscule. The odds of me causing harm to anyone by operating a locomotive are microscopic. Why are some of you so worried by what one insignificant 16 YO says on an internet forum? How many of you drive a car? Do you realize how much more likely you are to harm yourself or someone else while driving a car than I am to harm anyone while operating a locomotive? Really, if some of you this concerned by some comments by an idiot teen on a forum, I don't know how you get by in the real world.

 

[jis]

So the bottom line that I am seeing evolve here is that camera in cab is inevitable since such exists in other contexts where an operator who is responsible for the lives of many people and their well being is involved. My suspicion is that BLE will not win this one. Additionally, for what it is worth (minuscule I am sure) it seems to make sense to me. Whenever any change is proposed there is always some opposition to it some reasonable and some off the wall, and this time is no different. Such is life.

 

[AAARGH!]

If an engineer, operating on a entirely separated right of way behind a fence wants to take upon themselves the risk of letting a nincompoop like you operate a train, my hat comes off to them- and to Charles Darwin.
But if that engineer does that when his locomotive is attached to a train that I happen to be riding on, or on a train on the same line that I happen to be riding on, I would like to drag his sorry arse out of his cab, and kick him all the way down his bloody train and back again.

I don't care about your life. If you have this reckless and selfish disregard for the safety of other people, perhaps I'd even lean in the other direction slightly. But I do not care to have you endanger mine, or have some jerk off of an engineer facilitate your so doing.

Tactful as always GML... :huh:

As a Duran Duran song line went: "You are about as easy as a nuclear war".

 

[AAARGH!]

I was thinking about when the History Channel did their train series (what was it called again?) on the Acela. Of course there was the engineer, the (idiot) host, and the camera man (and maybe a sound guy too). If that is not a distraction, I don't know what is.

I would not have wanted to be on that Acela train with him being distracted by stupid questions and comments. Perhaps the only time I would not have wanted to be on an Acela!

Same thing when they were on the LD train.

 

[ThayerATM]

If they want to take the risk upon themselves of violating the rules and letting an unauthorized person in the cab or committing some other violation, then that is their decision.

If an engineer, operating on a entirely separated right of way behind a fence wants to take upon themselves the risk of letting a nincompoop like you operate a train, my hat comes off to them- and to Charles Darwin.

But if that engineer does that when his locomotive is attached to a train that I happen to be riding on, or on a train on the same line that I happen to be riding on, I would like to drag his sorry arse out of his cab, and kick him all the way down his bloody train and back again.

I don't care about your life. If you have this reckless and selfish disregard for the safety of other people, perhaps I'd even lean in the other direction slightly. But I do not care to have you endanger mine, or have some jerk off of an engineer facilitate your so doing.

Really GML, name calling? Do you really care that much about what some kid on an internet forum says? I think the picture below applies to you.

I do not care that you do not care about my life. I do not care about yours. I do not care what you or anyone else here thinks of me.

<----GML???

Let's review what I've said here:

1. I do not think there should be inward facing cameras in locomotive cabs for privacy reasons (this is my logical reason).

2. I (selfishly and illogically) hope that cameras are not installed, as I would not feel comfortable taking a cab ride with a camera watching me. I would enjoy a cab ride, and would take one if offered, but I do not seek opportunities for them. If I were in the cab, and the engineer offered to let me take the throttle for a moment, with him/her supervising, I would. I do not seek opportunities to do this either.

Now why is it that I am labeled as a threat to public safety? The odds of me ever getting a cab ride are tiny. The odds of me ever taking the throttle of a locomotive are minuscule. The odds of me causing harm to anyone by operating a locomotive are microscopic. Why are some of you so worried by what one insignificant 16 YO says on an internet forum? How many of you drive a car? Do you realize how much more likely you are to harm yourself or someone else while driving a car than I am to harm anyone while operating a locomotive? Really, if some of you this concerned by some comments by an idiot teen on a forum, I don't know how you get by in the real world.

Peter,

Your cartoon gave me a chance to laugh this morning. It was cleverly presented.

However, I think we might be talking about a problem concerning "impulse control." This involves being able to reasonably foresee the consequences of your actions.

Sure --- there are many things that I'd like to, like slapping that obnoxious customer on the other side of the counter, but I don't do it. There are several reasons, but the primary one is that I'd get fired.

As for me handling the throttle of a railroad engine... It's not really that difficult to reasonably foresee the consequences of a split second mistake, or a split second delay in reaction time due to the fact that I'm unqualified. In that split second the engineer would have to intervene.

A lot of unpleasant things could happen because of that split second delay.

 

[AAARGH!]

Peter:

This may also be an age perspective. You are 16, and at that age I was impulsive and took risks that I should not have. That comes with being 16. As we all know, the most dangerous drivers on the road are between 16 and 21.

Having been behind the wheel of something as "simple" as a car for 27 years, I have a different perspective on safety and about risk taking in general. I am not saying you are wrong, but that your opinion may be coming from the perspective of a 16 year old. I would like to know what your opinion would be 20 years from now.

Now, I am a still a risk taker to a point. I am not an old fogey (yet) and still do things that are somewhat dangerous. BUT I never will do anything that would endanger the safety of others. (I was given the controls of a sail plane (glider) with no experience, so I was putting the pilots life in danger, but it was only he and I and the consequenses of me doing something wrong could be immediately corrected by the pilot. I know this sounds contradictory, but I see it as a different situation than operating a train.)

Back to the topic at hand, if offered a cab ride, so long as I was not a distraction to the engineer in any way, I might accept. But I would remain quiet and a completely passive observer. Under no cirumstances would I take the control of a train on non-private tracks OR with anyone else (public) on the train besides the engineer.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Well I got to engineer a park train, the Breckenridge Eagle, a few years ago when a friend owned the concession!

It was a replica of the MP Eagle with a steamer on the front end but of course there were no pax aboard and it was really like running a golf cart or maybe a Prius! :lol:

I would love to ride in a Steam Engine but am not so keen on being in a diesel but thats just me! No how,no way would I attempt to operate a real train without going through training and being qualified and I am a licensed pilot,glider qualified,had a SCCA competition license in my younger days and did lots of stupid things back in the day!

I agree about being young, fantasies and dreams are wonderful things, even we folks of a certain age as they say still have them and that is great, as Bob Dylan said: "he not busy being born is busy dying.."

I too would sit quietly and enjoy being in a cab but would like to blow the whistle and ring the bell!!!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Tactful as always GML... :huh:
As a Duran Duran song line went: "You are about as easy as a nuclear war".

That's me. I'm just your natural born diplomat right here.

 

[Ryan]

I do not care about yours.

Clearly.

1. I do not think there should be inward facing cameras in locomotive cabs for privacy reasons (this is my logical reason).

Except that there is no logic to it. There's no expectation of privacy when you're on the job.

Do you realize how much more likely you are to harm yourself or someone else while driving a car than I am to harm anyone while operating a locomotive?

Of course I do. That's why I attended training, was tested and granted the proper license to do so.

idiot teen

Finally, we agree on something.

 

[Amtrak839]

I do not care about yours.

Clearly.

1. I do not think there should be inward facing cameras in locomotive cabs for privacy reasons (this is my logical reason).

Except that there is no logic to it. There's no expectation of privacy when you're on the job.

Do you realize how much more likely you are to harm yourself or someone else while driving a car than I am to harm anyone while operating a locomotive?

Of course I do. That's why I attended training, was tested and granted the proper license to do so.

idiot teen

Finally, we agree on something.

Well, that post was obnoxious and unnecessary. Way to take the high road. Fine example you're setting. And you complain about people like me? People like you contribute to the problem. What exactly do you expect a post like that to accomplish?

I want to thank other posters here for at least trying to understand my point of view, and being respectful of it. Despite that we disagree, I can see the points some of you try to make, and respect your views.

Let's try to get this thread back on topic, shall we?

 

[Neil_M]

As someone who has operated a number of trains in the UK under supervision from the driver (engineer, if you must) at speeds up to 125mph and instructs members of the public on a heritage line on paid for driving courses as a passed driver on that line I can see both sides to this, 99% of the time it is fine to let someone have a go at the controls, but the problem is when stuff goes wrong. If its against the rules then the staff member is taking a big risk, if its illegal then its even more of a risk.

As I have said, I have done it in the past, now I wouldn't and even travelling in the cab would be a no no, unless in possession of the correct documentation.

(That said, blasting along at 125mph in the seat of power is a lot of fun!)

 

[Long Train Runnin']

Peter I am only 17 you can start voulnteering at the age of 14 at most places. You can start working on your certifications if you were so inclined. I am only 17 years old I won't be able to run alone until my 18th birthday but intend to be fully quailfied to do so on my birthday. Things don't just happen you have to work at them.

 

[jis]

(That said, blasting along at 125mph in the seat of power is a lot of fun!)

Heh heh! I have done that (and perhaps a bit more in speed) sitting just behind the seat of power on an ICE It is fun. But that was from the passenger compartment, no distraction for the operator.

 

[AAARGH!]

Well, that post was obnoxious and unnecessary. Way to take the high road. Fine example you're setting. And you complain about people like me? People like you contribute to the problem. What exactly do you expect a post like that to accomplish?
I want to thank other posters here for at least trying to understand my point of view, and being respectful of it. Despite that we disagree, I can see the points some of you try to make, and respect your views.

Let's try to get this thread back on topic, shall we?

I will say this Peter, for 16 you get your point across very well. That is, you write very well, better than most who are (at least) twice as old as you.

I would say you have more maturity than several posters on this board as well.

 

[Amtrak839]

Peter I am only 17 you can start voulnteering at the age of 14 at most places. You can start working on your certifications if you were so inclined. I am only 17 years old I won't be able to run alone until my 18th birthday but indeed to be fully quailfied to do so on my birthday. Things don't just happen you have to work at them.

Interesting. Where exactly can you volunteer? Are you talking about a tourist line? The only railroads in my area are Amtrak, CSX, NS, VRE, and MARC. There are some tourist lines farther a way, but I don't think there are any I could get to on a regular basis.

 

[VentureForth]

Legal departments. Lawyers have far too much to do with this. Before there was any means of monitoring crews, no one would have worried about this sort of situation.

Lawyers have something to do with this because people have been injured and the owners of the property and the jobs which rules were broken had to pay out big bucks because of their negligence.

Could you please describe a scenario in which an unauthorized person being in the cab operating the locomotive under the close guidance of the engineer, with him or her ready to take control at a seconds notice, could endanger anyone (physical danger, ignoring potential legal trouble for the engineer or unauthorized person)?

As mentioned by so many other folks already, standing behind a trespasser that's sitting at the cab controls requires at least a couple more seconds of reaction time than if the trained professional employee was sitting in his/her seat.

You also asked in another post who wouldn't take a cab ride if offered? Who wouldn't take the controls of a P42 going 79 MPH if offered? Me, for one. I'm a railfan, but draw the line at foaming. I draw the line at rules. For all those who keep yelling at the dead "If you wouldn't have trespassed, you'd be alive!" remember that an unauthorized person in the cab is WAY more dangerous! For what it's worth, I think you've almost scared me from riding Amtrak, knowing that there are engineers out there who let unauthorized persons in the cab. I'm going to pay much closer attention to the cab as it comes into the station on my next ride.

The "private" tracks which were referred to as the preference for railfans playing with locomotives, means those tracks that are isolated either physically or with enough safety measures, from a main line. Yes, most rail is privately owned, not public.

As for speed, almost by definition I would say, a mainline freight or passenger train running at 20 - 40 MPH is probably much more dangerous than 79 if for no other reason than that the speed limit is set for the very reason that extra attention is necessary (ie: yards, sidings, etc).

I have no right or expectation of privacy at my little cubicle at work. IT monitors my internet usage. My boss can hover behind me at any time. If I'm slacking, the worst damage I can do is let go of a trade secret or cost the company in productivity. But it won't kill anyone. A train engineer can and should be monitored more because of that one differentiating fact.

 

[wayman]

(That said, blasting along at 125mph in the seat of power is a lot of fun!)

Heh heh! I have done that (and perhaps a bit more in speed) sitting just behind the seat of power on an ICE It is fun. But that was from the passenger compartment, no distraction for the operator.

Likewise, when a Keystone is running cab-car-forward, the view out the front window is pretty exciting. But you're behind a closed door between you and the engineer's cab. Nice clear view of both the tracks ahead and the cab controls, but totally safe.

 

[wayman]

Peter I am only 17 you can start voulnteering at the age of 14 at most places. You can start working on your certifications if you were so inclined. I am only 17 years old I won't be able to run alone until my 18th birthday but indeed to be fully quailfied to do so on my birthday. Things don't just happen you have to work at them.

Interesting. Where exactly can you volunteer? Are you talking about a tourist line? The only railroads in my area are Amtrak, CSX, NS, VRE, and MARC. There are some tourist lines farther a way, but I don't think there are any I could get to on a regular basis.

Depending on where you are in Northern Virginia and what your transportation options are, the following may be possibilities:

The National Capital Trolley Museum is located near Silver Spring, MD. It's been closed for moving and renovations for a while but is reopening on November 28th of this year. They're an all-volunteer organization, and they're not very large -- for what it's worth, Wikipedia says they have 125 volunteers. The smaller operations might be less exciting, but they've also got much smaller volunteer bases, which means a lot more opportunities for earnest new volunteers.

The Old Dominion Chapter of the NRHS owns locomotives and passenger cars and operates them for excursions on the Buckingham Branch (a freight short line, which Amtrak's Cardinal travels upon for a stretch between Charlottesville and Clifton Forge, I believe). Their website says they welcome volunteers of all stripes. Because the Buckingham Branch is part of the national railway system, one has to be fully qualified to be an engineer or conductor, but for all other positions -- including trainmen -- no qualification test is necessary. Just show up and demonstrate interest and competency and you could find yourself in that role pretty quickly, depending on how many volunteers they tend to have; you'll find the old hands are very willing to teach you all about everything, and you'll may find that they offer their own qualification classes to dedicated volunteers, too. You may spend a lot of time doing non-train work at first -- track work, or car restoration, or ticket sales, who knows. But the more they see that you're reliable and genuinely interested, the more opportunities you'll have. The Chapter is based in Richmond, and the address for the excursion ticket office is just north of Petersburg -- not exactly "northern", but not terribly far.

And the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad is based in Cumberland, MD -- about 2.5 hours from Washington, so it's probably quite a hike for you -- but it looks to be a pretty solid operation, and they too seek volunteers of all sorts, and have volunteer positions for trainmen and engine crew. Again, you have to work your way up to those positions, but it's easy to start.

 

[Neil_M]

(That said, blasting along at 125mph in the seat of power is a lot of fun!)

Heh heh! I have done that (and perhaps a bit more in speed) sitting just behind the seat of power on an ICE It is fun. But that was from the passenger compartment, no distraction for the operator.

Whoooosh...........

http://50031.fotopic.net/p52883946.html

 

[Long Train Runnin']

Its just like Wayman says these tourist RR and Scenic RRs love to have people our age. Granted you have to ready to work. When I showed up on day one they don't just hand you a radio and get you on the train. As a younger guy you turn into a great resource to them since you provide a set of arms ready for heavy lifting. You have to work hard to earn their trust and respect. Once thats in places you get your book or rules and start spending time on the train. Personally I love both aspects and now spend my entire weekend from 9 AM to 6 PM saturday and sunday over there. If you have an interest in railroading you really should try and find an outfit you can make it to regularly. They will accept you with open arms and teach you everything you want to know about trains and then even more.