Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Alex M.]

I rather doubt that Amtrak would be interested in these cars, even if they do exceed expectations for AAF. It may be just another oddball set of rolling stock using different parts. Where a potential market might be is in the state sponsored trains like the Piedmonts.

 

[Paulus]

I rather doubt that Amtrak would be interested in these cars, even if they do exceed expectations for AAF. It may be just another oddball set of rolling stock using different parts. Where a potential market might be is in the state sponsored trains like the Piedmonts.

Amtrak will be replacing the Amfleets soon, so they wouldn't be "just another oddball set of rolling stock."

 

[xyzzy]

It's difficult to imagine that Congress will fund 600 new passengers cars anytime soon.

 

[jis]

Congress has pretty much said that Amtrak has to use RRIF and other private means for financing new equipment.

But of course, that is for the time being. political winds could change.

In acquiring replacement for Amfleet Is Amtrak will need to balance the cost savings from buying off the shelf equipment with minimal modification for US adaptation against building a relatively small run of completely different cars from anything available off the shelf. I don;t know where the balance falls on that. As for oddball cars, any batch of 400 to 600 cars will not be oddball by any stretch of imagination. The Talgos are way more oddball than that any day.

 

[cirdan]

Congres has pretty much said that Amtrak has to use RRIF and other private means for financing new equipment.

But of course, that is for the time being. political winds could change.

In acquiring replacement for Amfleet Is Amtrak will need to balance the cost savings from buying off the shelf equipment with minimal modification for US adaptation against building a relatively small run of completely different cars from anything available off the shelf. I don;t know where the balance falls on that. As for oddball cars, any batch of 400 to 600 cars will not be oddball by any stretch of imagination. The Talgos are way more oddball than that any day.

absolutely, if Siemens pull this off smartly, they could do very well on this. I suspect that FEC is to some extent a door-opener to them and that they are pricing aggressively to get into and prove themselves in the North American market.

 

[Paulus]

Congres has pretty much said that Amtrak has to use RRIF and other private means for financing new equipment.

But of course, that is for the time being. political winds could change.

In acquiring replacement for Amfleet Is Amtrak will need to balance the cost savings from buying off the shelf equipment with minimal modification for US adaptation against building a relatively small run of completely different cars from anything available off the shelf. I don;t know where the balance falls on that. As for oddball cars, any batch of 400 to 600 cars will not be oddball by any stretch of imagination. The Talgos are way more oddball than that any day.

absolutely, if Siemens pull this off smartly, they could do very well on this. I suspect that FEC is to some extent a door-opener to them and that they are pricing aggressively to get into and prove themselves in the North American market.

It's a pretty bottom barrel price, quite possibly at cost, and they're financing the entire car purchase as well.

 

[Palmetto]

I have not seen anything about food service on AAF. Anyone know?

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I have not seen anything about food service on AAF. Anyone know?

It's mentioned that food and drinks will be provided, according to their website.

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/about-us/all-aboard-florida

 

[VentureForth]

Being such a short run, time wise, I think it would make much more sense to offer as little real estate on board for food service. A couple vending machines should be fine. 3 hours max journey won't leave anyone starving. That being said, it's always a lure to the train. But if NO ONE can make it profitable and if it's a huge drain on cash, then it'll be the first thing to go.

A snack trolley would be sufficient.

 

[jis]

All Aboard Florida plans to have a Lounge/Food Service Car in each train.

According to a FEC/AAF web site among the services provided will be

• Nourishing, tasty meals and beverages — When you ride on an All Aboard Florida train, you can enjoy food and beverage options.
  

I have also heard that (hearsay) First Class service will include high quality food service. I have also heard that they do not plan to try to make the food service an independent business with its own P&L, i.e. they do not plan to make it separately profitable necessarily.

 

[VentureForth]

More power to them. If their bottom line can absorb it, I definitely wish it well.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Archer Western will be building the tracks and structure for the OIA segment of AAF.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-train-orlando-archer-western-20150707-story.html

This is also the same company who built the Sunrail corridor and they did one hell of a job, in my opinion.

 

[cirdan]

All Aboard Florida plans to have a Lounge/Food Service Car in each train.

According to a FEC/AAF web site among the services provided will be

• Nourishing, tasty meals and beverages — When you ride on an All Aboard Florida train, you can enjoy food and beverage options.

I have also heard that (hearsay) First Class service will include high quality food service. I have also heard that they do not plan to try to make the food service an independent business with its own P&L, i.e. they do not plan to make it separately profitable necessarily.

This is exactly the sort of thing that will convince business travellers and up-segment leisure travellers to consider switching from the airlines.

 

[jis]

It just goes to show that Gene Skorpowski knows what he is doing, and the success of the Capitol Corridor in California was no accident.

 

[Anderson]

All Aboard Florida plans to have a Lounge/Food Service Car in each train.

According to a FEC/AAF web site among the services provided will be

• Nourishing, tasty meals and beverages — When you ride on an All Aboard Florida train, you can enjoy food and beverage options.

I have also heard that (hearsay) First Class service will include high quality food service. I have also heard that they do not plan to try to make the food service an independent business with its own P&L, i.e. they do not plan to make it separately profitable necessarily.

This is exactly the sort of thing that will convince business travellers and up-segment leisure travellers to consider switching from the airlines.

Well, or to supplement a flight with a rail leg. There are plenty of cases where a flight to one of the relevant airports (MCO, WPB, FLL, MIA) will be far cheaper than one's ultimate destination, and especially when MCO is the cheap one (MIA and FLL have "expensive" reputations from what I recall while MCO has a "cheap" one) there will be plenty of cases where AAF can "steal" a passenger bound for South Florida from the airports there and get them to fly into MCO instead.

 

[cirdan]

Well, or to supplement a flight with a rail leg. There are plenty of cases where a flight to one of the relevant airports (MCO, WPB, FLL, MIA) will be far cheaper than one's ultimate destination, and especially when MCO is the cheap one (MIA and FLL have "expensive" reputations from what I recall while MCO has a "cheap" one) there will be plenty of cases where AAF can "steal" a passenger bound for South Florida from the airports there and get them to fly into MCO instead.

Depending on AAF's business model.

If they can convince some airlines to codeshare with them, this would indeed be an attarctive proposition. If on the other hand the airlines chose to close the door on negotiations, I doubt many travellers would go to the lengths of booking the train journey as a separate leg, especially if the booking restricts them to a given train and a delayed incoming flight might invalidate their train booking.

This relates to Orlando to Miami traffic of course. If you're looking at traffic from Orlando to intermediate points the story is different.

 

[Anderson]

Well, or to supplement a flight with a rail leg. There are plenty of cases where a flight to one of the relevant airports (MCO, WPB, FLL, MIA) will be far cheaper than one's ultimate destination, and especially when MCO is the cheap one (MIA and FLL have "expensive" reputations from what I recall while MCO has a "cheap" one) there will be plenty of cases where AAF can "steal" a passenger bound for South Florida from the airports there and get them to fly into MCO instead.

Depending on AAF's business model.

If they can convince some airlines to codeshare with them, this would indeed be an attarctive proposition. If on the other hand the airlines chose to close the door on negotiations, I doubt many travellers would go to the lengths of booking the train journey as a separate leg, especially if the booking restricts them to a given train and a delayed incoming flight might invalidate their train booking.

This relates to Orlando to Miami traffic of course. If you're looking at traffic from Orlando to intermediate points the story is different.

That is, of course, going to depend on the airline as much as anything. You have 41 airlines serving Orlando and 51 serving Miami...but in a lot of cases those are foreign carriers only doing one or two flights per day to the airport in question. Here's a chart (going by the websites of the airlines):

Airline MIA FLL PBI MCO Total
Aer Lingus X 1
Aeroflot X 1
AeroGal X 1
Aerolineas Argentinas X 1
Aeromexico X X 2
airberlin X 1
Air Canada X X X X 4
Air Europa X 1
Air France X 1
Air Transat X X 2
Alitalia X 1
Alaska Airlines X X 2
Allegiant Air X X 2
American Airlines X X X X 4
ArkeFly X 1
Aruba Airlines X 1
Avianca X X X 3
Avior Airlines X 1
Azul X X 2
Bahamasair X X X X 4
BoA X 1
British Airways X X 2
CanJet X 1
Caribbean Airlines X X X 3
Cayman Airways X 1
Condor X 1
COPA Airlines X X X 3
Delta Air Lines X X X X 4
Eastern Air Lines X 1
Emirates X 1
Frontier Airline X X X X 4
GOL X X 2
IBC Airways X X 2
Iberia X 1
Icelandair X 1
Insel Air X 1
Insel Air Aruba X 1
Interjet X 1
Jetairfly X 1
JetBlue X X X 3
LAN Airlines X X 2
Lufthansa X X 2
Magni Charters X 1
Miami Air X X 2
Norwegian X X 2
Qatar X 1
Santa Barbara Airlines X 1
Silver Airways X X X 3
SkyBahamas X 1
Southwest X X 2
Spirit X X X 3
Sun Country X X 2
Sunwing X X 2
Surinam Airways X 1
Swiftair X 1
Swiss International X 1
TAM Brazilian X X 2
TAP Portugal X 1
TAME X 1
Thomas Cook X X 2
Tiara Air Aruba X 1
Transaero X 1
United Airlines X X X X 4
Virgin America X X 2
Virgin Atlantic X X 2
Volaris X X 2
WestJet X X X 3
World Atlantic X X 2
Xtra Airways X 1
XL Airways France X 1

In general, I suspect that a lot of those carriers would love nothing more than to consolidate down from serving multiple airports (if only to cut basing costs), but this is going to apply doubly for a lot of the foreign carriers. Additionally, a number of foreign carriers only serve a single airport...so code-sharing with AAF will make sense since it will allow them to advertise increased reach without having to set up a second base for one or two flights per day.

 

[jis]

For AAF to be seamlessly code shareable with the majors they have to have checked baggage service. I have not heard anything pro or con on that issue, but AFAIK they do not have a baggage car in their currently planned consists.

 

[Brian_tampa]

If I remember correctly, the new intermodal terminal at Orlando airport will have baggage check-in capabilities for departing airplane passengers. I would assume that would also mean the ability to pick up baggage at the train station for arriving airplane passengers who will be departing the airport on AAF or Sunrail.

 

[cirdan]

For AAF to be seamlessly code shareable with the majors they have to have checked baggage service. I have not heard anything pro or con on that issue, but AFAIK they do not have a baggage car in their currently planned consists.

When flying into the USA from a destination abroad (as I assume most of the airlines on your list are doing), unless I am mistaken, the procedure is that you collect your baggage at the first US airport you arrive, take it through customs and then re-check it.

There would thus be no need for AAF to transfer checked baggage to or from airlines.

 

[jis]

The problem is that people who check their bags do it for a reading, and they tend to avoid situations where they suddenly have to drag their checked bags along with them on what is supposed to be a leg in an itinerary that is supposed to be providing checked bag service. Real easing a bag from checked state at an airport is not a problem.

 

[cirdan]

The problem is that people who check their bags do it for a reading, and they tend to avoid situations where they suddenly have to drag their checked bags along with them on what is supposed to be a leg in an itinerary that is supposed to be providing checked bag service. Real easing a bag from checked state at an airport is not a problem.

Quite often the reason people check luggage is that

a) it may contain items you're not allowed in a carry on

b) the luggage exceeds the dimensions that the airline allows for a carry on

As trains are far less restrictive on both measures, I don't think checked baggage is a must.

 

[jis]

In customer surveys that United has done on people who could use the code share through Newark one thing that came out as an issue was no checked baggage on trains. Originally they had thought of expanding the code share considerably apparently, but then held off on it since they found they had to maintain their NEC connecting flights from Newark anyway or lose customers. So the jet and turboprop puddle jumpers in addition to mainline 737 flights continue to serve both the residual air market beyond Amtrak and the connecting passengers market. I would hasten to add though that checked baggage is not the only issue in lack of seamlessness. There are a couple other issues too apparently between United and Amtrak, one being the lack of sufficient integration between reservation systems. For example DB and Lufthansa is able to do a much more seamless operation in that area in Frankfurt. So there are ways to mitigate problems with seamlessness in areas other than checked baggage to make the overall experience attractive enough for people to use significantly.

Ideally if the code share worked truly seamlessly in Newark, Continental and now United should have been able to dispense with the need for deploying any of its own equipment for connecting to anywhere on the NEC reachable with a train ride of 3 hours or less. but that did not come to pass.

Of course things could be different in Orlando and I would certainly hope so, since it is not burdened with past traditions and possible lack of capacity and equipment and such as the whole New York area seems to be drowning under at present. In Orlando they have the possibility of thinking anew and building something better. Whether they will do that is to be seen.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This is exactly the sort of thing that will convince business travellers and up-segment leisure travellers to consider switching from the airlines.

In areas of the world where trains compete successfully with aircraft the primary attraction is speed and dependability. Food service is often minimal or non-existant.

There are plenty of cases where a flight to one of the relevant airports (MCO, WPB, FLL, MIA) will be far cheaper than one's ultimate destination, and especially when MCO is the cheap one (MIA and FLL have "expensive" reputations from what I recall while MCO has a "cheap" one) there will be plenty of cases where AAF can "steal" a passenger bound for South Florida from the airports there and get them to fly into MCO instead.

MCO, SFB, TPA, and FLL are all fairly cheap compared to MIA.

People who check their bags do it for a [reason], and they tend to avoid situations where they suddenly have to drag their checked bags along with them on what is supposed to be a leg in an itinerary that is supposed to be providing checked bag service.

Exactly. I don't check bags but I often travel with folks who do and lack of through checking is going to seriously impact their decision. If they get stuck carrying checked luggage for more than a short interchange, such as between a taxi and check-in desk or between customs and recheck, they won't be coming back. Luggage transfer needs to be as close to seamless as possible to keep things running smoothly.

When flying into the USA from a destination abroad (as I assume most of the airlines on your list are doing), unless I am mistaken, the procedure is that you collect your baggage at the first US airport you arrive, take it through customs and then re-check it. There would thus be no need for AAF to transfer checked baggage to or from airlines.

Through checking needs to be in place to keep things running smoothly or else everything gets bogged down and counteracts the goal of poaching connecting travelers. The outbound check-in process is already among the most tedious and stressful stages of air travel. If the train is going to woo substantial numbers of through passengers they need to offer a seamless luggage handling experience. The recheck process is generally pretty simple because it's designed and staffed to handle rechecks that have already been reviewed for compliance and loaded into the tracking system. It is not designed or staffed to handle large numbers of new luggage checks.

 

[jis]

When flying into the USA from a destination abroad (as I assume most of the airlines on your list are doing), unless I am mistaken, the procedure is that you collect your baggage at the first US airport you arrive, take it through customs and then re-check it. There would thus be no need for AAF to transfer checked baggage to or from airlines.

I really don't follow your line of reasoning here. I'm no expert on luggage processing but I've seen a lot of what works and what doesn't over the years and I feel I have a good understanding of where the divisions occur.

Yeah, I don't quite understand the point being made either. Actually, the airlines do the transfer of bags from just outside of the C&I checkpoint to the plane. There is a bag dropoff area, which is nothing like checking the bag in. They taker the bag, scan the tag and send it on its way. No checkin required. I do this multiple times a year in Newark both Terminals B and C. After dropping off the checked bag at the C&I checkpoint you proceed to whatever gate your flight is at with just your hand baggage, so the distance you have to drag your checked bag is just from the bag belt to the dropoff point, through the Customs checkpoint. This incidentally is standard procedure in many countries (and Schengen which is not quite a country) at the first port of entry, not just the US, as long as the subsequent flight is an domestic flight.

A person arriving by United whether it be international or domestic into Newark and connecting to an Amtrak code share basically has to reclaim their bags and then drag it up the escalators or elevators to the AirTrain, drag it into the AirTrain, go to the NEC station, drag it from the AirTrain to the Amtrak train and then find a place for the bags in usually what is an overcrowded train where you often have to walk through multiple cars to even find a seat (remember, Amtrak does not reserve assigned seats unlike say DB out of Frankfurt). It is a wholly unattractive and borderline painful experience. Given a choice between Amtrak code share and a puddle jumper to Philly, I know many choose the puddle jumper, even though that is also not the best of experiences. But at least the airline will handle your baggage for you all the way. The train connection is a worse experience.

For this reason, I believe as long as AAF does not provide checked baggage, many of the MCO - MIA flights will continue as is, perhaps downsized a bit. But they will not just disappear. If AAF provides European style assigned seat reservation, that will mitigate the pain quite a bit and will tilt thing a bit in favor of AAF, since you at least know precisely where you need to drag the bag to.