Brightline Trains Florida discussion 2023 Q4

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Anderson said:
True. The different paint schemes probably lean against doing too much of that, but that's an aesthetic matter, not a technical one.
[The bigger issue is that I know they have at least three distinct cars, maybe four, in each set - Premium, coach+bag, and I don't recall if the last two coaches are identical or a bit different.]
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The reason that one has semi-permanently coupled sets is because in the normal course of things they wish to manage the consists as the unit. If you have a large enough number of sets then you can just manage things in terms of sets and keep a set or two in reserve. If one starts playing fast and loose with not keeping enough contingency around then one has to start playing games about managing individual cars. If Brightline is backing itself into that situation they will pay in terms of unreliability of service. We will just have to see how it goes.
 
jis said:
The reason that one has semi-permanently coupled sets is because in the normal course of things they wish to manage the consists as the unit. If you have a large enough number of sets then you can just manage things in terms of sets and keep a set or two in reserve. If one starts playing fast and loose with not keeping enough contingency around then one has to start playing games about managing individual cars. If Brightline is backing itself into that situation they will pay in terms of unreliability of service. We will just have to see how it goes.
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Agreed. In theory, under a "full build-out" situation where they have hourly service Miami-Disney Springs* (9-10 sets), hourly service MCO-Tampa (maybe 5 sets?), every-other-hour to Jacksonville (6-7 sets), and cover the rest of the hours not going to JAX between MIA-WPB (3 sets)? The "base" of about 25 sets would allow for five shop/spare sets (so, one each at MCO, MIA/WPB, and JAX**; one out for inspection; and one extra), which is probably sustainable operationally. The issue right now is just that the number of sets in play is a bit on the low side.

*I realize it might be to another stop in the Orlando area nearby.
**JAX instead of TPA since it'd be quick enough to scramble a spare off to Tampa, while JAX is a long way to get something moved in.
 
jis said:
They cannot do a car swap on the road. But they can certainly change out a car in the shop overnight, if they have additional cars available to do so. It takes an hour at most to swap a car in a consist in the shop. So a consist becomes unavailable only for the balance of the day.

But you are correct when you have a larger fleet you can really keep consists together and do spare management in terms of consists and not cars.
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Why is it so difficult to cut out a car and why can that not be done on the road? I guess there must be oodles of jumper cables to connect and maybe non standard couplings . But you shouldn’t need to go into a workshop for that.

Of course I follow your argument that it is more rational to plan with fixed sets rather than changing lengths all over the place .

But in a contingency situation if a car develops a fault, I would expect separating out one car makes more sense than failing an entire train?
 
cirdan said:
Of course I follow your argument that it is more rational to plan with fixed sets rather than changing lengths all over the place .

But in a contingency situation if a car develops a fault, I would expect separating out one car makes more sense than failing an entire train?
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As soon as you do that you are not managing in terms of sets, in a manner of speaking. The counter argument is, when an axle fails you replace the axle and put the car back in service. That in principle is the same as replacing a car in a set when a car fails. In principle both can be done in the field and is done after accidents in order to clear the mess. But in normal operation you'd make both changes in shop.

In semi-permanent coupled sets there is no coupler it is a bolted on drawbar that connects the two cars. The cables and hoses are no different than between cars coupled together using H couplers. Usually the gangway is much more robust and more "permanently" set up than those at H coupler coupled points.
 
It would seem that the concern is if one car becomes not roadworthy then train set has to be parked in siding if possible. When the problem cannot be fixed on the road then a crane has to be brought in to disconnect the car then car on either a RR flat or over the road flat. It may be with locos on either end with field work disconnecting the bad order car and the 2 sections of the good train set can rejoin or just each ferry to maintenance location. Just hope that this never occurs on the single-track section Cocoa - MCO.
 
The whole idea works only in environments where in service failures are infinitesimally small. All of the world's HSRs work this way. A certain level of reliability has to be a pre-requisite, and that means a certain level of predictive maintenance is part of the deal. While not at the level of attention required for ETOPS rating on airlines, it is probably significantly more than the seemingly "as and when we can" attitude observed in the US.
 
cirdan said:
Why is it so difficult to cut out a car and why can that not be done on the road? I guess there must be oodles of jumper cables to connect and maybe non standard couplings . But you shouldn’t need to go into a workshop for that.
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I think the other part of this is “why bother when you’re never more than 2h from a workshop?” There’s one in Palm Beach and one just south of MCO.
 
I just received an email from Brightline promoting its "All Station Shared Pass"

​
The All-Station Shared Pass is here.

​
With service to Orlando now open, we are excited to introduce a new All-Station Shared Train Pass, allowing you to explore all the best of Florida.

Why This Pass Is More Than Just a Ticket: With locked-in pricing, you’re in control. Whether it’s an impromptu business meeting, a spontaneous weekend getaway, or a long-anticipated family vacation, Brightline’s All-Station Shared Pass ensures you're always on the move.

Standout Features of Brightline’s All-Station Shared Pass:

  • Predictable Pricing: Always know what you're paying with consistent fare rates at less than $100 per ride.

  • Expansive Travel Range: Reach every Florida station, effortlessly connecting South Florida and Orlando.

  • Ample Rides: A total of 12 rides, offering flexibility and convenience.

  • Extended Validity: Use your rides within a spacious 90-day timeframe.

  • Shareable: Spread joy. Share your rides with friends or family.

  • Travel in Style: Choose between our SMART & PREMIUM services.

As the holiday season approaches, it's time to book your end-of-year vacation. And with prices starting at just $1199 for SMART service, you’ll pay less than $100 per ride. Write the next chapter of your travel story with Brightline’s All-Station Shared Pass.
 
pennyk said:
I just received an email from Brightline promoting its "All Station Share Pass"

​
The All-Station Shared Pass is here.

​
With service to Orlando now open, we are excited to introduce a new All-Station Shared Train Pass, allowing you to explore all the best of Florida.

Why This Pass Is More Than Just a Ticket: With locked-in pricing, you’re in control. Whether it’s an impromptu business meeting, a spontaneous weekend getaway, or a long-anticipated family vacation, Brightline’s All-Station Shared Pass ensures you're always on the move.

Standout Features of Brightline’s All-Station Shared Pass:

  • Predictable Pricing: Always know what you're paying with consistent fare rates at less than $100 per ride.

  • Expansive Travel Range: Reach every Florida station, effortlessly connecting South Florida and Orlando.

  • Ample Rides: A total of 12 rides, offering flexibility and convenience.

  • Extended Validity: Use your rides within a spacious 90-day timeframe.

  • Shareable: Spread joy. Share your rides with friends or family.

  • Travel in Style: Choose between our SMART & PREMIUM services.

As the holiday season approaches, it's time to book your end-of-year vacation. And with prices starting at just $1199 for SMART service, you’ll pay less than $100 per ride. Write the next chapter of your travel story with Brightline’s All-Station Shared Pass.
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The SMART Pass sounds like a good Deal, the Premium One not so much so!( $8+ vs $100 per ride) YMMV
 
pennyk said:
I just received an email from Brightline promoting its "All Station Share Pass"

​
The All-Station Shared Pass is here.

​
With service to Orlando now open, we are excited to introduce a new All-Station Shared Train Pass, allowing you to explore all the best of Florida.

Why This Pass Is More Than Just a Ticket: With locked-in pricing, you’re in control. Whether it’s an impromptu business meeting, a spontaneous weekend getaway, or a long-anticipated family vacation, Brightline’s All-Station Shared Pass ensures you're always on the move.

Standout Features of Brightline’s All-Station Shared Pass:

  • Predictable Pricing: Always know what you're paying with consistent fare rates at less than $100 per ride.

  • Expansive Travel Range: Reach every Florida station, effortlessly connecting South Florida and Orlando.

  • Ample Rides: A total of 12 rides, offering flexibility and convenience.

  • Extended Validity: Use your rides within a spacious 90-day timeframe.

  • Shareable: Spread joy. Share your rides with friends or family.

  • Travel in Style: Choose between our SMART & PREMIUM services.

As the holiday season approaches, it's time to book your end-of-year vacation. And with prices starting at just $1199 for SMART service, you’ll pay less than $100 per ride. Write the next chapter of your travel story with Brightline’s All-Station Shared Pass.
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Wow. So they will sell you 12 tickets at the maximum (current) price. With all the $79-$89 fares available, why would anyone do that? Anything BUT "Smart".
 
VentureForth said:
Wow. So they will sell you 12 tickets at the maximum (current) price. With all the $79-$89 fares available, why would anyone do that? Anything BUT "Smart".
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Yeah...I would have expected it to be closer to $149. Maybe not $149 or less, but somewhere around $160 or so for now (so, $1899-1949)?
 
VentureForth said:
Wow. So they will sell you 12 tickets at the maximum (current) price. With all the $79-$89 fares available, why would anyone do that?
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If I had occasional and unpredictable needs to go to Orlando for work over a three month period I'd be really tempted. The pass is for when the train you need to take tomorrow goes past $100 but isn't sold out.
 
chrsjrcj said:
Looking at WPB to Orlando all the trains tomorrow are priced at $69 except the first trip priced at $89. Unless my math is wrong, this Florida Pass is $99 per trip. The weekend tickets will likely end up being more expensive, but with a little planning I fail to see the current value in the pass.
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Might be interesting for business travelers. As on airlines, business customers don't necessarily get the lowest fares, but they often get predictable fares.
 
cirdan said:
... but no mention of when they expect to start construction, or commence service.
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The second quarter report [1] didn't say much else, but the hint I get is that they have several balls in the air (Cocoa/Treasure Coast stations, South Florida commuter operations, and this) and there's still engineering work and so on that needs to be done first.

[1] https://emma.msrb.org/P11702339-P11308958-P11740459.pdf
 
cirdan said:
Might be interesting for business travelers. As on airlines, business customers don't necessarily get the lowest fares, but they often get predictable fares.
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True, but there are currently no Smart fares that are more than $99. If I saw a smattering of Smart fares at ideal times of $109-119, it may be worth consideration.

I do stand corrected. The 12-ride, $1200 pass is valid on either Smart -or- Premium. With that, I think it's pretty easy to get 6 round trips in 3 months.
 
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Anderson said:
The second quarter report [1] didn't say much else, but the hint I get is that they have several balls in the air (Cocoa/Treasure Coast stations, South Florida commuter operations, and this) and there's still engineering work and so on that needs to be done first.

[1] https://emma.msrb.org/P11702339-P11308958-P11740459.pdf
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Adding more stops is a two-edged sword. It can allow for the same seat to be sold multiple times along a run, and it can also prevent occupancy of a full run (max revenue) passenger by losing available seats enroute. As we have all previously discussed, it also slows down the total trip time by up to 5 minutes per additional station at a time they're trying to get total time reduced. I'm already seeing sold out trains from ORL - MIA tomorrow, but it's because the train is sold out between FTL & MIA.
 
VentureForth said:
Adding more stops is a two-edged sword. It can allow for the same seat to be sold multiple times along a run, and it can also prevent occupancy of a full run (max revenue) passenger by losing available seats enroute. As we have all previously discussed, it also slows down the total trip time by up to 5 minutes per additional station at a time they're trying to get total time reduced. I'm already seeing sold out trains from ORL - MIA tomorrow, but it's because the train is sold out between FTL & MIA.
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That is pretty common, and it's something Brightline does need to address. Of course, if a train is sold out FTL-MIA, that'd mean there's space that could be sold within WPB-MCO.

[Brightline really needs another few trains running WPB-MIA, just as a matter of the demand they cultivated in South Florida.]
 
Anderson said:
That is pretty common, and it's something Brightline does need to address. Of course, if a train is sold out FTL-MIA, that'd mean there's space that could be sold within WPB-MCO.

[Brightline really needs another few trains running WPB-MIA, just as a matter of the demand they cultivated in South Florida.]
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, I am somewhat surprised people will pay premium Brightline fares for such short trips, especially when there is a much cheaper alternate choice available via Tri Rail.... 🤔
 
railiner said:
, I am somewhat surprised people will pay premium Brightline fares for such short trips, especially when there is a much cheaper alternate choice available via Tri Rail.... 🤔
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At least for the moment, Tri-Rail doesn't go downtown, so that's a complication there in terms of travel time, a separate fare in Miami, and so on. Once it does, I think some of this might self-sort.

That being said, the Smart pass for South Florida is priced along the lines of a monthly ticket on the New Haven Line, and prices out to about $10/ride. That's not nuts. However, the intra-South Florida fares can get high enough that buying a 12-pass and only using like 5-6 of them at a peak hour can make sense. If I had to guess, you've got passholders seriously stressing the peak-hour trains.
 
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