Boardman: Amtrak Commits to End Food and Beverage Losses

[AKA]

So, on the whole, cafe cars are a break-even affair, while dining cars are the money-losers. Have we ever had confirmation that was the case in the past?

Seeing the NEC has cafe cars, and the NEC cannot possibly be resposnible for losing any money at all, it is quite logical really.

I suggest rebranding LD trains as NEC Extended Edition and losses would evaporate instantly.

GREAT idea.

 

[SarahZ]

It's so interesting to me that the "no cash" option is getting argued against. Whenever we go to a deli/restaurant/coffee stand and there's a sign that says "Cash Only", people groan, turn away, and head off to find the nearest ATM (or just leave altogether). I can't remember the last time I paid cash for something, so I only carry $10-20 at any given time, especially when we're traveling.

On the other hand, I realize there are people who don't have bank accounts and can't get a credit card, and they may not think to buy one of those Visa gift cards before the trip, so that could potentially affect those passengers who don't have a lot of money/credit and only deal with cash and checks. I may be showing my younger age, but cash is such a foreign concept to me now. I write two checks per month (rent and parents); everything else goes on my debit or credit cards. (I'm not saying everyone should do that; it's just common among my friends/generation.)

It's strange to think that there'd be such a big difference between those people who get upset when a place is "cash only" and then to think that people would be upset about "credit only" on the train, like the train is its own little society. It's just interesting, that's all.

 

[haolerider]

If by "ending food and beverage losses, Amtrak means electronic accounting and Point-of-Sale, along with proper electronic inventory tracking, and efficient use of space in the dining car (maximum number of seatings), then great!

If by "ending food and beverage losses", Amtrak means means worse or more expensive food, then terrible!

(Regarding what I just wrote: Look up "if by whiskey" in Wikipedia. )

If Amtrak can accomplish two things with the electronic changes, it would avoid the threat of "missing cash" , but most importantly, it would help to eliminate the huge waste of food that has to be thrown out at the end of a LD train trip. I have witnessed the tremendous waste with outdated food, packages that have been opened, but not fully consumed, spoilage, etc. it all goes into the garbage and cannot be given to a food bank or even taken home by employees. It is waste and it is huge!

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Ever notice the little 'fine print' on the front of all US bills? "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" What is amazing is that people can get away with not accepting cash. Amtrak has stated that using only electronic transactions will cut down on fraud. While true it will protect Amtrak from its own employees, it puts its customers who prefer to use cash at greater risk for fraud.

 

[rrdude]

Guys and Gals:

I "can't not" weigh in here.

1. Been involved in selling and installing POS for restaurants for over 30 years, worked for: (NCR, Aloha, Micros, Panasonic, now ASI which writes the POS software called "Restaurant Manager" .
   
2. Worked OBS for Amtrak for almost 3 years. SA-Diner, TA-C, TA-S, LSA
   
3. Ran my own restaurant and two dinner trains for five years. (Michigan & Maryland)
   
4. Sold Amtrak NCR POS, back in mid-80's to the-then "Long Distance" Vertical Business Unit. (Since abolished and re-structured)
   
5. Investigated thoroughly Amtrak's previous aborted attempts/fiasco's at installing ECR's and POS. (Electronic Cash Register)
   

Battalion51's ideas/comments are sound, anything to do with POS is great, as long as someone in mgmt does the "data mining" and them makes decision based on that info!

Amtrak Dining Car service is so overdue for POS, it boggles my imagination. Granted, when we tested back in the 90's wireless was in it's infancy, but let's forget about "what Amtrak has tried/failed in the past, and focus on the today.

1. Wireless (LAN, not WAN) is simple, inexpensive, secure, robust, and operationally stable, all it has to do is cover the dining car.
   
2. TODAY, Amtrak can implement HandHeld devices, or (as the company I work for is now testing, Bring Your Own Devices, BYOD) in said dining cars, and the servers can either input the orders for the customer, or have the customer do it them self. E-Signature capture is proven, solid, mature, and secure.
   
3. As soon as the SA-Diner confirms the order, BOOM! The order is electronically sent to the kitchen down below. (doesn't matter if the train is in a tunnel or in the middle of nowheresville, it's only LAN at this point) SA-Diner then spins on his/her heels, greets the next table, and repeats the process. Add-on orders are done the same way.
   
4. HandHeld tablets (iPad, Mini, or any of the Android varieties) are cheaper now, and there are a multitude of inexpensive shock-resistant cases for them
   
5. When closing the check, for sleeper pax, they could go one of two ways. 1) The POS server could be updated with actual occupancy, and the POS could check against that, (Like a Room Charge in a hotel, Batallion51) to verify. Or, 2) Could simply input the car and room number, without any verification, like they do manually now.
   
6. For coach customers, could go one of several ways: 1) If accepting CC, POS Server in Diner would connect to WAN or Cell network (like the CC machines they have now do) and process CC that way. 2) If accepting cash, EZ-Pee-Zee, just settle to cash, kick out the receipt. (if requested) 3) If Amtrak goes to "Coach-Meal Included" could operate like sleeper option number 2 above.
   
7. CC tips will be calculated and tracked by server electronically. (guess who is gonna really like the $2 Bill tips then!) This is one major reasons that servers, Amtrak or land-based restaurants, HATE IT when a POS system is installed in a restaurant that didn't have them before.
   
8. The Metrics one can can from a POS system blow the mind, and I will only highlight a few, as other posters have touched on some
   

• Average check calculated
  
• Average TIME from open to close check calculated
  
• Time that entrees are ordered calculated
  
• Average sales per SA-Diner are calculated. (so could Ave Sales per crew, but I'd be shocked if they weren't tracking that now)
  
• Peak and valley meal times are 100% accurate, and are calculated
  
• POS Systems all allow for multiple pricing periods, so "early Bird Specials" and "Late Owl" service, with diff pricing could be easily implemented.
  
• Minimum Drinks per check can be enforced. (Did the SA-Diner enter a drink? No big deal is sleeper, but BIG deal is coach)
  
• Orders get to kitchen MUST FASTER, and are easily read by kitchen staff/chef. Individual abbreviations and "chicken scratch" is history.
  
• Faster Table-Turns result from many of the above points
  
• Data transmitted from POS server to Amtrak CNOC, or wherever the Hell it needs to go to, or to specific commissaries, enroute.
  
• LSA-Diner and SA-Diner check out and "down-time" is greatly reduced, as the POS does everything but count the remaining stock.
  
• The dreaded "896 Form" becomes 'nuttin but a memory.............As it is produced electronically, (after the count) and transmitted to the cloud.
  
• Stop me now, I got thirty years of experience, and unless you are in my industry, you don't care...............
  

 

[rrdude]

Ever notice the little 'fine print' on the front of all US bills? "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" What is amazing is that people can get away with not accepting cash. Amtrak has stated that using only electronic transactions will cut down on fraud. While true it will protect Amtrak from its own employees, it puts its customers who prefer to use cash at greater risk for fraud.

It Is Legal Tender, but I don't think that implies the merchant/service provider HAS to take cash..............just saying..

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Ever notice the little 'fine print' on the front of all US bills? "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" What is amazing is that people can get away with not accepting cash. Amtrak has stated that using only electronic transactions will cut down on fraud. While true it will protect Amtrak from its own employees, it puts its customers who prefer to use cash at greater risk for fraud.

It Is Legal Tender, but I don't think that implies the merchant/service provider HAS to take cash..............just saying..

I here you, and Terms of Service postings would work against me, but if I've already eaten and all I have is cash, being hauled off the train and possibly spending some 'quality' time at a local police department seems a bit much, when all I want to do is pay with legal tender...

 

[National Limited]

Doesn't Boardman's statement sound suspiciously like the infamous "glidepath to self-sufficiency?"

 

[amtrakmichigan]

IMO...If Amtrak wants to make the dining cars profitable, the first thing that needs to go is the waitstaff who make $50,000+ per year between union benefits and wages. I believe that if you cut salaries and benefits in half to all Amtrak food service employees, then Amtrak would turn a profit without changing menu prices or lowering the quality of products.

There are many simple things that could be changed too in the dining cars like I observed on my last 2 trips. If making a profit is such a issue, why is Amtrak offering premium name brand products? Instead of Newmans Own dressings, Heinz ketchup, Hellmens mayo..etc....Why not generic brands such as Sysco, Sams club brands....etc? To me this could save a million $ plus a year by just switching to generic brands like most restaurants serve now days anyway.

 

[John Bobinyec]

IMO...If Amtrak wants to make the dining cars profitable, the first thing that needs to go is the waitstaff who make $50,000+ per year between union benefits and wages. I believe that if you cut salaries and benefits in half to all Amtrak food service employees, then Amtrak would turn a profit without changing menu prices or lowering the quality of products.

What about quality of the service? How long are you willing to wait for your meal to be delivered to you?

jb

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

There are many simple things that could be changed too in the dining cars like I observed on my last 2 trips. If making a profit is such a issue, why is Amtrak offering premium name brand products? Instead of Newmans Own dressings, Heinz ketchup, Hellmens mayo..etc....Why not generic brands such as Sysco, Sams club brands....etc? To me this could save a million $ plus a year by just switching to generic brands like most restaurants serve now days anyway.

That is a valid point and often the "house brand" products are just as good as the name brand but somewhere poor Fred Harvey is going 'round and 'round in his grave at the thought.....

 

[Bus Nut]

But customers respond to brand names. For example, I'm more likely to order salad knowing they stock Newman's own, which is tasty, as opposed to Kraft, or, worse, some of the more common food service varietys (Hain's, etc), which taste disgusting to me. As for some of those other items where customers maybe don't perceive a difference you may find that Sysco's broadline isn't that much of a savings. Sysco carries different quality points of items and the good quality (good tasting) items are not inexpensive! Remember, to get Sysco they would probably have to contract with Sysco and presumably they have reasons for contracting with the suppliers that they use now. Sysco is by no means the cheapest.

 

[PRR 60]

I don't think that economic reform of Amtrak Food and Beverage will live or die with the brand of salad dressing purchased.

When you use an Amtrak dining car and see your order recorded by hand on a large, multi-part paper form (that you have to sign, in black ink only, of course), you know there is considerable room for improvement on the process side of F&B business. The degree to which that visible side of the operation reflects what happens behind the scenes can only be imagined. Whether Amtrak means business with this pronouncement or is just creating a diversion remains to be seen.

 

[MikefromCrete]

IMO...If Amtrak wants to make the dining cars profitable, the first thing that needs to go is the waitstaff who make $50,000+ per year between union benefits and wages. I believe that if you cut salaries and benefits in half to all Amtrak food service employees, then Amtrak would turn a profit without changing menu prices or lowering the quality of products.

There are many simple things that could be changed too in the dining cars like I observed on my last 2 trips. If making a profit is such a issue, why is Amtrak offering premium name brand products? Instead of Newmans Own dressings, Heinz ketchup, Hellmens mayo..etc....Why not generic brands such as Sysco, Sams club brands....etc? To me this could save a million $ plus a year by just switching to generic brands like most restaurants serve now days anyway.

What do you do for a living? Give me your boss' name and I'll suggest he cut your salary and benefits in half.

 

[MikefromCrete]

It's so interesting to me that the "no cash" option is getting argued against. Whenever we go to a deli/restaurant/coffee stand and there's a sign that says "Cash Only", people groan, turn away, and head off to find the nearest ATM (or just leave altogether). I can't remember the last time I paid cash for something, so I only carry $10-20 at any given time, especially when we're traveling.

On the other hand, I realize there are people who don't have bank accounts and can't get a credit card, and they may not think to buy one of those Visa gift cards before the trip, so that could potentially affect those passengers who don't have a lot of money/credit and only deal with cash and checks. I may be showing my younger age, but cash is such a foreign concept to me now. I write two checks per month (rent and parents); everything else goes on my debit or credit cards. (I'm not saying everyone should do that; it's just common among my friends/generation.)

It's strange to think that there'd be such a big difference between those people who get upset when a place is "cash only" and then to think that people would be upset about "credit only" on the train, like the train is its own little society. It's just interesting, that's all.

I find the idea of using credit or debit cards for every single purpose a bit silly. The finest restaurant in Chicago -- Hot Doug's -- accepts only cash and people stand in line for an hour to get in and enjoy his great offerings. Besides, I don't like to think that my every purchase and movement in life can be traced.

 

[MattW]

It's so interesting to me that the "no cash" option is getting argued against. Whenever we go to a deli/restaurant/coffee stand and there's a sign that says "Cash Only", people groan, turn away, and head off to find the nearest ATM (or just leave altogether). I can't remember the last time I paid cash for something, so I only carry $10-20 at any given time, especially when we're traveling.

On the other hand, I realize there are people who don't have bank accounts and can't get a credit card, and they may not think to buy one of those Visa gift cards before the trip, so that could potentially affect those passengers who don't have a lot of money/credit and only deal with cash and checks. I may be showing my younger age, but cash is such a foreign concept to me now. I write two checks per month (rent and parents); everything else goes on my debit or credit cards. (I'm not saying everyone should do that; it's just common among my friends/generation.)

It's strange to think that there'd be such a big difference between those people who get upset when a place is "cash only" and then to think that people would be upset about "credit only" on the train, like the train is its own little society. It's just interesting, that's all.

But how many "no cash" places do you know? I've seen many cash only places, but never a no cash place, so I don't have a point of comparison. Cash is better for small transactions, you don't have a bunch of tiny recipts to keep track of, and you reduce the risk of credit card fraud by using it for less transactions. Yes, your cash could get stolen too, but it's a one-time thing, taking someone's $10 bill means all they get is $10. Taking someone's credit card means they could run up thousands of dollars of charges, then the victim has to go through the hassle of identifying legitimate charges, possibly have to go to court, file reports, etc. The option should be left to pay either way.

 

[SarahZ]

It's so interesting to me that the "no cash" option is getting argued against. Whenever we go to a deli/restaurant/coffee stand and there's a sign that says "Cash Only", people groan, turn away, and head off to find the nearest ATM (or just leave altogether). I can't remember the last time I paid cash for something, so I only carry $10-20 at any given time, especially when we're traveling.

On the other hand, I realize there are people who don't have bank accounts and can't get a credit card, and they may not think to buy one of those Visa gift cards before the trip, so that could potentially affect those passengers who don't have a lot of money/credit and only deal with cash and checks. I may be showing my younger age, but cash is such a foreign concept to me now. I write two checks per month (rent and parents); everything else goes on my debit or credit cards. (I'm not saying everyone should do that; it's just common among my friends/generation.)

It's strange to think that there'd be such a big difference between those people who get upset when a place is "cash only" and then to think that people would be upset about "credit only" on the train, like the train is its own little society. It's just interesting, that's all.

Besides, I don't like to think that my every purchase and movement in life can be traced.

I don't care about that one bit. I have nothing to hide.

 

[SarahZ]

But how many "no cash" places do you know? I've seen many cash only places, but never a no cash place, so I don't have a point of comparison.

True enough. I've seen them, but it's very rare.

 

[zepherdude]

i have looked for these thoughts I am holding, but no one has brought this concept up. What if Amtrak gets out of the food service business completely? Amtrak hires a professional contractor to handle food and beverage on board. Its not impossible to do and make money from the deal. Many corporations have greater buying power than Amtrak. The vendor comes in and redesigns the lower lobe kitchens, sets up provisioning stations, point A to B to C. Places its own crew inside, handles its own cash, liquor, beer and wine. Amtrak does not need to be in the food service business.

There are many smart operators that could make this all work. Limit the dining car selections to that of a Dinner Train, three or four entrees, all with salad, entree, dessert. Years of Amtrak numbers will reveal how much steak, pasta and seafood is served. So, meal planning is an equation based on past passenger selection. Easy to obtain passenger load factors and how many used the long distance dining car.

Actually, an airline kitchen would be great at this type of catering. Have no idea who caterers anymore, I did for 40 years. There were many independent airline caterers around in my time. I was one of those guys. It was all about numbers and percents of the passenger load factor. Examples, coffee creamers were boarded and 70% for a morning kickoff flight. Milk on a meal flight, 1-8 passengers, OJ Quarts, 1-10 passengers. Some amounts were standard, coffee, sugar PCs, bev naps.

This is a form of airline catering as meals are based upon a percent of passengers who will eat chicken at 30%, steak at 60%, cold plate at 10% for 16 first class passengers. On long haul flights, passenger counts are much higher but the same percents apply. Appetizers in first class are based on 60-40% choice. Chocolates at 110% and so on with wine and beer. Airline liquor kits are packed with maybe 40 units and based on 1 full kit for 30 passengers. The same percents were followed in coach when meals were served in the back. An airline would board a hot meal at 70%, sandwich/snack at 30% for 130 coach passengers.

Just tossing this out, an independent caterer who has the brains, bucks, rolling stock and a hefty amount of insurance could pull this off nicely. Just a thought. Entrees, pre-made, blast frozen fresh and hot could produce an outstanding, quality, inexpensive meal..

Trains could be serviced for the entire trip based on historical numbers, the way Amtrak does it now. Sound too hard? When I started in the business, I catered Braniff International, and Eastern Airlines from an old pizza parlor, 5 miles from the airport and through 3 school zones. Anything is possible with a vision, a little money and friends in high places. Just my thoughts.

 

[boxcarsyix]

Zephyrdude please don't take offense. Airline food is ok for one inflight meal, but three times for 2-3 days would not suit my taste.

 

[chakk]

Could there be Spam on our future travels by rail?

If Amtrak adds service in Hawaii, this would most certainly be the case -- and expected by the customers.

 

[battalion51]

But how many "no cash" places do you know? I've seen many cash only places, but never a no cash place, so I don't have a point of comparison.

True enough. I've seen them, but it's very rare.

Ever been to Sam's Club gas station? Ever bought anything from an online merchant like Amazon? Redbox? QuikTrak machine?

I don't think we're going to solve all the potential problems here for sure. There's definitely room for improvements, that much we can all agree on. How it will all take shape there's no telling. But I would say that given the success of the E-Ticket program Amtrak seems to have turned the corner on using technology in on board applications.

 

[MattW]

Sam's Club requires membership, and the online stores are a remote transaction which aren't the cases on the train.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Whether Amtrak means business with this pronouncement or is just creating a diversion remains to be seen.

I don't think Joe Boardman runs his mouth. So if he says Amtrak will eliminate losses on food and beverage, it will. He has been shown the plans to make it work -- with a margin of error just in case.

It's all good. As someone commented above, now Cong Mica will have to find some other petty something to try to make into a big something.

 

[SarahZ]

But how many "no cash" places do you know? I've seen many cash only places, but never a no cash place, so I don't have a point of comparison.

True enough. I've seen them, but it's very rare.

Ever been to Sam's Club gas station? Ever bought anything from an online merchant like Amazon? Redbox? QuikTrak machine?

I don't think we're going to solve all the potential problems here for sure. There's definitely room for improvements, that much we can all agree on. How it will all take shape there's no telling. But I would say that given the success of the E-Ticket program Amtrak seems to have turned the corner on using technology in on board applications.

Oh, I was speaking of brick-and-mortar merchants, not online merchants. I can think of a zillion things that are credit-only, but I was going along the path of restaurants and things like that.