Blank Check from CN

[Jeremy]

I'm not familiar with the intersection but wouldn't it have made more sense for CN or Amtrak or someone to have called the local PD and asked for the grade crossing to be blocked by a couple of squad cars while they ran their test? Any associated costs would have been minuscule compared to the mess they are in now.

 

[DivMiler]

This is definitely a PR nightmare for CN.

To the average person, it probably is worse for Amtrak in terms of perception.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

it was a amtrak train that hit the vehicle so if the family members were to sue they would sue amtrak. if CSX hit that while on CN tracks they would sue CSX. at the end of the days its amtraks name on the train. just like a at a rock concert and some fans get trampled to death who do they sue. not the venue or staff. they go after the band.

 

[PRR 60]

it was a amtrak train that hit the vehicle so if the family members were to sue they would sue amtrak. if CSX hit that while on CN tracks they would sue CSX. at the end of the days its amtraks name on the train. just like a at a rock concert and some fans get trampled to death who do they sue. not the venue or staff. they go after the band.

I'm sure you think that's the way it is, but it isn't.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Unfortunately, Amtrak will be the ones that pay any settlements under the agreements between RR's.

I'd bet you're wrong, in this rare instance. Because CN gave Amtrak a specific and unusual signal to proceed full speed through the speed restriction, I'd bet you that CN is actually responsible for damages.

If the car ahead of you is stopped, and there's less than a car-length between it and you, that won't help matters.

Not totally true. A year or so ago, my prized '79 Mercedes 300SD ground to an unmoving halt just around a blind corner on a relative unused road near my house, with what later turned out to be THREE locked brake calipers. I still am at a loss as to what caused all three to lock solid at once, but they did. In anycase, my immediate assumption was that the rear axle had jammed (I'd been having rear axle problems), and I left my girlfriend with a maglite to direct anyone who happened to be coming around the curve.

I then got my other car, the '95 E300 Diesel (not a powerful car, trust me) and positioned it behind the bumper of the '79. I managed to push the thing about 225 feet so that it was off to the side and not in the immediate path of some poor fool who came barreling around the curve unsuspecting.

I'm sure that if I can shove a car like that with three locked calipers, the average person could push a car in front of them out of the way enough that they'd get a more glancing blow, at the least.

 

[oldtimer]

I suspect it takes a typical person at least 10 seconds to 1, realize there's an emergency, 2, unbuckle, 3, open the door, 4, get out of the car, and 5, run at least 6 feet away from the car. That might be a lot more time than she had.

Just a little bit of advice from someone who has had the misfortune of experiencing many grade crossing accidents.

When you run, run TOWARD the approaching train, as you will be out of the debris field when the impact occurs.

Al

:huh: :huh:

 

[wayman]

Unfortunately, Amtrak will be the ones that pay any settlements under the agreements between RR's.

I'd bet you're wrong, in this rare instance. Because CN gave Amtrak a specific and unusual signal to proceed full speed through the speed restriction, I'd bet you that CN is actually responsible for damages.

If the car ahead of you is stopped, and there's less than a car-length between it and you, that won't help matters.

Not totally true. A year or so ago, my prized '79 Mercedes 300SD ground to an unmoving halt just around a blind corner on a relative unused road near my house, with what later turned out to be THREE locked brake calipers. I still am at a loss as to what caused all three to lock solid at once, but they did. In anycase, my immediate assumption was that the rear axle had jammed (I'd been having rear axle problems), and I left my girlfriend with a maglite to direct anyone who happened to be coming around the curve.

I then got my other car, the '95 E300 Diesel (not a powerful car, trust me) and positioned it behind the bumper of the '79. I managed to push the thing about 225 feet so that it was off to the side and not in the immediate path of some poor fool who came barreling around the curve unsuspecting.

I'm sure that if I can shove a car like that with three locked calipers, the average person could push a car in front of them out of the way enough that they'd get a more glancing blow, at the least.

You can certainly push one car, despite locked brakes, but what if that car has another car immediately in front of it, and that car has another car immediately in front of it, and there's generally two feet between cars, say? In the situation where there's a backup of stopped traffic, She'd be ramming one car into the next into the next ... and I doubt her car would get all the way clear of the tracks. She'd make some forward progress, but quite possibly not enough to avoid being at least clipped by the train. It might have been enough to be the difference between life and death; it's hard to say. But I don't think it's quite the same situation as you had with one car pushing one other car.

 

[Guest]

You can certainly push one car, despite locked brakes, but what if that car has another car immediately in front of it, and that car has another car immediately in front of it, and there's generally two feet between cars, say? In the situation where there's a backup of stopped traffic, She'd be ramming one car into the next into the next ... and I doubt her car would get all the way clear of the tracks. She'd make some forward progress, but quite possibly not enough to avoid being at least clipped by the train. It might have been enough to be the difference between life and death; it's hard to say. But I don't think it's quite the same situation as you had with one car pushing one other car.

It is not about forward progress. You are looking for a way out with openings on the sides and blockage on the front. So 2+2=turn your steering wheel so you go off to the side, but since cars won't have the turning radius the car ahead will get hit as well. Now since the car in front will be rotated instead pushed it will take less energy to do that so you have a better chance of clearing the tracks. Also this means that you won't be pushing the next car in front of the car you ram. Of course if someone is not smart enough to not stop on the tracks or keep proper distance then they probably wouldn't realize how to drive out either.

 

[sunchaser]

Here is an article on this subject....

It states that she was sandwiched between other cars, so apparently she had no place to go.

Also, here is a video.

It looks like there is at least two sets of tracks.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Here is an article on this subject.... It states that she was sandwiched between other cars, so apparently she had no place to go.

Also, here is a video.

It looks like there is at least two sets of tracks.

The western most track is the CN main line. The east track connects with the main line just south of Stuenkel Road, it's a lead track for freight trains entering Markham Yard at Homewood (a very long lead). There is space between the tracks where a second main track used to be.

Just north of Stuenkel Road is the Metra Electric yard and University Park station, but these tracks do not cross the road.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You can certainly push one car, despite locked brakes, but what if that car has another car immediately in front of it, and that car has another car immediately in front of it, and there's generally two feet between cars, say? In the situation where there's a backup of stopped traffic, She'd be ramming one car into the next into the next ... and I doubt her car would get all the way clear of the tracks. She'd make some forward progress, but quite possibly not enough to avoid being at least clipped by the train. It might have been enough to be the difference between life and death; it's hard to say. But I don't think it's quite the same situation as you had with one car pushing one other car.

My instinctive response would be to either jump out of the car or to attempt to work my way out edgewise as much as possible. Logically, I would probably not get clear of the tracks, but in this circumstance, I'd be aiming for anything I could get. I have a million chances to die and a tiny one to live, and I'd be going for it no matter how little chance it had of making a difference. Little chance is better than no chance, etc.

Here is an article on this subject.... It states that she was sandwiched between other cars, so apparently she had no place to go.

Also, here is a video.

It looks like there is at least two sets of tracks.

Sandwiched is a vague term. Sandwhiched can mean there was an inch between the bumpers of her car and the cars immediately infront of and in back of, or a foot, or even 3 feet. In any case, when I started shoving Gottlieb (the '79) with Rudolf ('95) I had gently moved up to the point where the bumpers of the cars gently nudged each other before I started putting power to the ground (I was trying to avoid damaging the relatively delicate modern plastic bumpers on Rudolf with the hydraulic 1970s steel battering rams on Gottlieb), so I didn't need any space to gain momentum. Admittedly, Rudolf is a Diesel (hence the name) and thus most of the engine's torque is available just off idle, but I only have 155 lb-ft of it at peak and I was trying to move about 4000 lbs of rolling weight and 3900 lbs of dead weight with it.

If I'm any judge of the wreckage, the car hit was a large Ford, which would have had a lot more pushing power than my car.

I was trying to a) minimize damage to Gottlieb (I was figuring it was the rear axle still, and figured if I tore that apart, well, it needed replacement anyway), b) not damage the body of Rudolf at all, and c) not destroy my transmission. Furthermore, with my girlfriend flagging the road behind me with a flashlight, my life was not in danger.

If I had been on the grade crossing as that woman was, I'd be cranking the wheel hard-a-starboard, and nailing the throttle, and not give one damn if I totaled my car in the process.

 

[battalion51]

It seems like CN is taking a lot of the heat on this, rightfully so. But I know damn sure the black box shows that the Engineer was laying on the horn. All of the boys I know would be laying it down. If you approach a crossing and there's even the hint something's about to go down, you lay it down hard with your left hand and have your right hand ready to dump it.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

That said, CN still blew it big time here.
Unfortunately, Amtrak will be the ones that pay any settlements under the agreements between RR's.

The more I think about this, the more I find myself astonished that Amtrak would accept the potential liability here by knowingly allowing their trains to be used to test a known-to-be-potentially-malfunctioning grade crossing. CN has basically admitted "we wanted to be sure this would work at both freight and passenger speeds, so we took the slow order off to see what would happen with a train at passenger speed". I would think Amtrak should have said "you can't say for certain this will work, and it's our liability if it doesn't, so we're going to let you run your own test train at speed; we're going to treat this as a slow order for our trains until it's been tested". I know they're under CN's dispatching, but surely there's some prerogative for an engineer to act in a safer manner than the dispatcher if track conditions warrant that.

Did the engineer have no idea what was going on -- that the grade crossing was actually in testing, and that he was "the test train"? If so, I would hope there is some grounds for Amtrak suing CN over this. I know what the agreements are, but there's a far, far greater demonstration of negligence here -- "we know it may still be broken, and we're knowingly using you as a test train" -- than under normal accident circumstances -- eg, "oops, it was broken, our bad, but your liability". If the engineer knew, I can see it still being Amtrak's liability clearly. But if the engineer didn't know -- if CN had some degree of doubt about the grade crossing and was withholding that information -- that just seems like it's a different legal ballgame altogether.

Amtrak used some of the Sunset Limited cars in Alabama to help NS recalibrate grade crossing last year. Although there were no passengers and signal crews were on hand during every test. The train ran as #919 and #920 the 9 prefix meaning it was a special company train for NS. The test train was allowed to reach 90mph with an FRA waiver during the actual tests but was restricted to 79mph during all other movements such as setting up for the test and ferry moves. The consist was P42,2-3 Superliners,P42...

 

[wayman]

That said, CN still blew it big time here.
Unfortunately, Amtrak will be the ones that pay any settlements under the agreements between RR's.

The more I think about this, the more I find myself astonished that Amtrak would accept the potential liability here by knowingly allowing their trains to be used to test a known-to-be-potentially-malfunctioning grade crossing. CN has basically admitted "we wanted to be sure this would work at both freight and passenger speeds, so we took the slow order off to see what would happen with a train at passenger speed". I would think Amtrak should have said "you can't say for certain this will work, and it's our liability if it doesn't, so we're going to let you run your own test train at speed; we're going to treat this as a slow order for our trains until it's been tested". I know they're under CN's dispatching, but surely there's some prerogative for an engineer to act in a safer manner than the dispatcher if track conditions warrant that.

Did the engineer have no idea what was going on -- that the grade crossing was actually in testing, and that he was "the test train"? If so, I would hope there is some grounds for Amtrak suing CN over this. I know what the agreements are, but there's a far, far greater demonstration of negligence here -- "we know it may still be broken, and we're knowingly using you as a test train" -- than under normal accident circumstances -- eg, "oops, it was broken, our bad, but your liability". If the engineer knew, I can see it still being Amtrak's liability clearly. But if the engineer didn't know -- if CN had some degree of doubt about the grade crossing and was withholding that information -- that just seems like it's a different legal ballgame altogether.

Amtrak used some of the Sunset Limited cars in Alabama to help NS recalibrate grade crossing last year. Although there were no passengers and signal crews were on hand during every test. The train ran as #919 and #920 the 9 prefix meaning it was a special company train for NS. The test train was allowed to reach 90mph with an FRA waiver during the actual tests but was restricted to 79mph during all other movements such as setting up for the test and ferry moves. The consist was P42,2-3 Superliners,P42...

As a "special company train for NS", does that mean Amtrak and NS had taken steps to ensure this was technically/legally an NS train (using borrowed equipment) rather than an Amtrak train, for purposes of determining liability in the event of an accident? If so, why did it have an Amtrak train number at all?

 

[Mackensen]

Just to follow up on this topic, CN (through the Illinois Central) settled with the family for $6 million. Full story here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-dancer-settlement-20120314,0,1054394.story. As several people here surmised, Amtrak was not held responsible.

 

[Anderson]

Just looking this over, agreements notwithstanding I'm wondering if Amtrak might not have a claim against CN for gross negligence. At least in general, no matter what is in the agreement if someone crosses that line then if something goes wrong it tends to be on them.