BC on a Budd train

[Anderson]

For some reason, I had thought it was the Budd corridor train (there's one) that didn't have BC, but I'm on #55 right now. I'm sitting in Gare Central, and I'm in a train car where the seats actually line up with the windows (two seats to a window). I'm...I don't know how to describe it, but this is amazing.

Not only that, but from a railfan perspective...the train actually matches.

Yeah, I'm sort of having a railfan freakout.

Edit: And now that I know how to look for them, I'm going to bend over backwards to get these trains. If I didn't have one of those **** non-refundable reservations (thank you, VIA, for eliminating the middle, refundable-with-fee, option in BC with your 50% off sale), I'd be switching my reservation for this evening to the 6:30 train from the 8:32. Actually, I'm still sorely tempted to do so regardless.

 

[railiner]

For some reason, I had thought it was the Budd corridor train (there's one) that didn't have BC, but I'm on #55 right now. I'm sitting in Gare Central, and I'm in a train car where the seats actually line up with the windows (two seats to a window). I'm...I don't know how to describe it, but this is amazing.

Not only that, but from a railfan perspective...the train actually matches.

Yeah, I'm sort of having a railfan freakout.

Edit: And now that I know how to look for them, I'm going to bend over backwards to get these trains. If I didn't have one of those **** non-refundable reservations (thank you, VIA, for eliminating the middle, refundable-with-fee, option in BC with your 50% off sale), I'd be switching my reservation for this evening to the 6:30 train from the 8:32. Actually, I'm still sorely tempted to do so regardless.

Very nice.

But when I saw the title of your posting, I got excited thinking you were describing riding in British Columbia on a Railiner...

 

[NS VIA Fan]

For some reason, I had thought it was the Budd corridor train (there's one) that didn't have BC, but I'm on #55 right now. I'm sitting in Gare Central, and I'm in a train car where the seats actually line up with the windows (two seats to a window). I'm...I don't know how to describe it, but this is amazing.

Not only that, but from a railfan perspective...the train actually matches.

Yeah, I'm sort of having a railfan freakout.

Edit: And now that I know how to look for them, I'm going to bend over backwards to get these trains. If I didn't have one of those **** non-refundable reservations (thank you, VIA, for eliminating the middle, refundable-with-fee, option in BC with your 50% off sale), I'd be switching my reservation for this evening to the 6:30 train from the 8:32. Actually, I'm still sorely tempted to do so regardless.

Very nice.

But when I saw the title of your posting, I got excited thinking you were describing riding in British Columbia on a Railiner...

That's exactly what I thought too……a nostalgic report about ridings Budd RDCs on BC Rail! (has it really been 10 years since their last run north to Prince George!)

The railfan in me says enjoy the ride in those old Budd HEP2 rebuilds. But on the practical side; my order of preferences for Business Class in the corridor is: 1) the smooth riding Renaissance equipment with the ability to have a single seat and that huge tray-table for working. 2) LRCs and finally 3) the old Budds……shake & rattle!.....they're old!

(And remember BC or Business Class on VIA is an entirely different product than BC on Amtrak…..VIA's is similar to Acela First Class)

 

[Anderson]

On VIA's BC being akin to Acela First...oh, don't I know it! Breakfast was tea and shortbread cookies, fruit, scrambled eggs with ham mixed in, orange juice, and water. Oh, and a croissant. It was amazing.

I don't have any experience with the Rens, but I'm going to indicate a modest preference for the Budds over the LRCs. Based on my recollection from my last trip, they weren't much smoother (if any). I might well prefer the Rens, but I can't judge. The only beef I have with any of them, though, is the lack of a footrest.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

On VIA's BC being akin to Acela First...oh, don't I know it! Breakfast was tea and shortbread cookies, fruit, scrambled eggs with ham mixed in, orange juice, and water. Oh, and a croissant. It was amazing.

Wait 'till you get to experience an evening meal!

I just wanted to get the point across that BC on VIA was more that a half can of pop and a free newspaper

 

[railiner]

For some reason, I had thought it was the Budd corridor train (there's one) that didn't have BC, but I'm on #55 right now. I'm sitting in Gare Central, and I'm in a train car where the seats actually line up with the windows (two seats to a window). I'm...I don't know how to describe it, but this is amazing.

Not only that, but from a railfan perspective...the train actually matches.

Yeah, I'm sort of having a railfan freakout.

Edit: And now that I know how to look for them, I'm going to bend over backwards to get these trains. If I didn't have one of those **** non-refundable reservations (thank you, VIA, for eliminating the middle, refundable-with-fee, option in BC with your 50% off sale), I'd be switching my reservation for this evening to the 6:30 train from the 8:32. Actually, I'm still sorely tempted to do so regardless.

Very nice.

But when I saw the title of your posting, I got excited thinking you were describing riding in British Columbia on a Railiner...

That's exactly what I thought too……a nostalgic report about ridings Budd RDCs on BC Rail! (has it really been 10 years since their last run north to Prince George!) [/size]

Except I was thinking more of the E&N Malahat from Victoria....

 

[Anderson]

On VIA's BC being akin to Acela First...oh, don't I know it! Breakfast was tea and shortbread cookies, fruit, scrambled eggs with ham mixed in, orange juice, and water. Oh, and a croissant. It was amazing.

Wait 'till you get to experience an evening meal!

I just wanted to get the point across that BC on VIA was more that a half can of pop and a free newspaper

Oh, I know...complete with a cocktail, wine, and after-dinner chocolates. There's a reason that I say VIA puts Amtrak to shame on this front...I vaguely tolerate the Acela, even in FC, but I'm looking forward to dinner tonight.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I love those old Budds, too! Too bad VIA is going through severe difficulties.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

..............Too bad VIA is going through severe difficulties.

I certainly wouldn't say "severe" difficulities

Sure the Canadian was cut to twice weekly in the off-season and the Ocean will now operate three times a week. (Ridership on the Ocean is half of what it was 10 years ago……just too much airline competition out there: Toronto: 2 hr vs. 24 on the train)

But the Government has also invested a Billion $ in VIA over the past 5 years and that investment continues:

 

 

Link Here: New Stations - New Tracks - Equipment Rebuilds

-Miles of new triple-track for high speed corridor operation.

-Several totally new stations plus up-grades to others.

-The entire F40 fleet was rebuilt.

-The LRC fleet is also being totally rebuilt but that has hit a temporary snag with the current contractor (Industrial Rail) going into receivership

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

..............Too bad VIA is going through severe difficulties.

I certainly wouldn't say "severe" difficulities

Sure the Canadian was cut to twice weekly in the off-season and the Ocean will now operate three times a week. (Ridership on the Ocean is half of what it was 10 years ago……just too much airline competition out there: Toronto: 2 hr vs. 24 on the train)

But the Government has also invested a Billion $ in VIA over the past 5 years and that investment continues:

 

 

Link Here: New Stations - New Tracks - Equipment Rebuilds

-Miles of new triple-track for high speed corridor operation.

-Several totally new stations plus up-grades to others.

-The entire F40 fleet was rebuilt.

-The LRC fleet is also being totally rebuilt but that has hit a temporary snag with the current contractor (Industrial Rail) going into receivership

Sure, the fleet is getting overhauled, but the cuts aross the system are very bad IMO. If VIA can't restore some trains then they are definately doing BAD. I don't know why they're losing ridership while Amtrak is gaining a lot.

 

[Anderson]

I think it has to do with the fact that while most of the US trains are workable transportation for at least some folks, the Canadian really isn't. The Corridor is doing well enough, as I understand it, but the LD trains are just too slow/have to cover too much ground.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

..................... The Corridor is doing well enough, as I understand it, but the LD trains are just too slow/have to cover too much ground.

 

Plus the vast distances to be covered. It's 1900 km and a day and a half from Toronto to Winnipeg and once you're beyond Sudbury there are no places with any significant population…..some First Nation communities and former railway servicing stops in the bush. At the Ontario-Manitoba border, there is but one two-lane highway, a single CN track and a single CP track……nothing else connecting eastern and western Canada. There are some population centres across the prairies and with Calgary and Edmonton over a million each and about 200 miles apart……prime candidates for high-speed rail someday.

In the Maritimes, there's greater population density along the Ocean's route but lots of airline competition in Halifax and Moncton with fares just as cheap or cheaper than the train……also it's an hour to Montreal or two to Toronto vs 24 on the train. The Ocean does a good local business west of Moncton especially with students travelling to/fr University (and hopefully this traffic will be retained on the new tri-weekly schedule. There will be trains on Friday and Sunday when most are travelling.)

 

[Anderson]

True, and there's apparently been some passing chatter about running passenger rail between Calgary and Edmonton (really the only two clear candidates for it outside the Corridor).

From what you're saying, it really seems a shame that VIA couldn't do what Southern did and run a truncated Ocean (maybe overnight, maybe on a daylight schedule) to Moncton on non-Halifax days.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

True, and there's apparently been some passing chatter about running passenger rail between Calgary and Edmonton (really the only two clear candidates for it outside the Corridor).

From what you're saying, it really seems a shame that VIA couldn't do what Southern did and run a truncated Ocean (maybe overnight, maybe on a daylight schedule) to Moncton on non-Halifax days.

What "Southern" are you talking about here?

 

[Anderson]

True, and there's apparently been some passing chatter about running passenger rail between Calgary and Edmonton (really the only two clear candidates for it outside the Corridor).

From what you're saying, it really seems a shame that VIA couldn't do what Southern did and run a truncated Ocean (maybe overnight, maybe on a daylight schedule) to Moncton on non-Halifax days.

What "Southern" are you talking about here?

The Crescent back in the 70s. It was daily Washington-Birmingham and thrice-weekly Birmingham-New Orleans. In this case, you'd run the Ocean daily Montreal-Moncton and thrice-weekly Moncton-Halifax.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

................................... In this case, you'd run the Ocean daily Montreal-Moncton and thrice-weekly Moncton-Halifax.

A couple of years ago a passenger advocacy group had proposed something similar. The Ocean would terminate in Moncton (at least in the off-season) connecting to an intercity type service running Halifax-Moncton-Saint John but that went nowhere after the completion of a fast new tollway and four lane highway.

A new faster Ocean might still be in the works: CN wants to abandon a portion of the current Intercolonial route via Campbellton and reroute the Ocean from Moncton to near Riviere-du-Loup on the National Transcontinental Railway…….CN main freight line to the Maritimes……..Fast and CTC equipped all the way.

 

Ocean Reroute on the NTR

 

And this could possibly be a benefit to northern Maine as the NTR hugs the US border along part of its route. Van Buren Me., once the terminal for an overnight sleeper on the Bangor & Aroostook RR to Boston is only a half mile from a possible Ocean stop in St. Leonard NB and Madawaska, Me is just across the bridge from Edmundston NB. At Estcourt, the edge of the CN right-of-way IS the US/CAN boundary.

 

[Anderson]

I'm glad that it might get sped up. While it can't compete with airlines on time, I suspect that cutting a few hours (to get the ride substantially under 24 hours) will help ridership. It's a pity that proposal didn't happen, too, since it would have added a city to the route and potentially been able to get some business on the back end as well.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

True, and there's apparently been some passing chatter about running passenger rail between Calgary and Edmonton (really the only two clear candidates for it outside the Corridor).

From what you're saying, it really seems a shame that VIA couldn't do what Southern did and run a truncated Ocean (maybe overnight, maybe on a daylight schedule) to Moncton on non-Halifax days.

What "Southern" are you talking about here?

The Crescent back in the 70s. It was daily Washington-Birmingham and thrice-weekly Birmingham-New Orleans. In this case, you'd run the Ocean daily Montreal-Moncton and thrice-weekly Moncton-Halifax.

Why to Birmingham? Why not just Atlanta? At least I'm glad that Amtrak got the train back to all-daily despite the horrible BHM station.

 

[Nathanael]

..............Too bad VIA is going through severe difficulties.

I certainly wouldn't say "severe" difficulities

The slashing of corridor branch service comes to mind.

The complete lack of new equipment also comes to mind. There are only so many rebuilds you can do.

 

[Nathanael]

Sure, the fleet is getting overhauled, but the cuts aross the system are very bad IMO. If VIA can't restore some trains then they are definately doing BAD. I don't know why they're losing ridership while Amtrak is gaining a lot.

VIA's policy of cutting busy corridor trains is a fairly reliable way to lose ridership. Cutting frequency is well-known to be a recipe for cutting ridership. And VIA has never seemed to figure this out.

There were also complaints from people riding the Ocean as far as Moncton that the train was reliably busy until Moncton and less busy east of there, but it got cut to three-a-week over its entire length. Of couse, with CN wanting a reroute, this could be a deliberate effort to suppress ridership at Moncton, though I hope not.

There were also complaints from people in most of the cities on the cut corridor trains, that VIA was cutting useful and full trains while retaining in many cases the least useful train. Again, a recipe for ridership suppression. I can't think of any benefit VIA can get from this ridership suppression other than some short-term budgetary savings (pennywise pound-foolish). The Canadian has really been good only for cruise ridership for a long time, so I'm not terribly bothered by those cuts, but that isn't true of the corridor trains.

Amtrak made similar mistakes some years back when it made many, many trains into 3-a-week trains. Amtrak learned its lesson from that and reversed the process; now it doesn't want to operate anything less than daily. And after the experience in Illinois, it seems wiser to have twice-daily than daily.

Hopefully the Corridor cuts won't last.

 

[Anderson]

True, and there's apparently been some passing chatter about running passenger rail between Calgary and Edmonton (really the only two clear candidates for it outside the Corridor).

From what you're saying, it really seems a shame that VIA couldn't do what Southern did and run a truncated Ocean (maybe overnight, maybe on a daylight schedule) to Moncton on non-Halifax days.

What "Southern" are you talking about here?

The Crescent back in the 70s. It was daily Washington-Birmingham and thrice-weekly Birmingham-New Orleans. In this case, you'd run the Ocean daily Montreal-Moncton and thrice-weekly Moncton-Halifax.

Why to Birmingham? Why not just Atlanta? At least I'm glad that Amtrak got the train back to all-daily despite the horrible BHM station.

In general, railroads would try to run a train as far out as they could while still turning it at a major city, so they could pack a few more passengers onto a run. Thus you also got trains turning at Fargo instead of terminating at MSP, for example. Part of this was due to better control over their systems, mind you (Amtrak doesn't have the reliability needed to pull this sort of turning), but part was because...well, if you're going to pay the OBS for held-away time anyway, you might as well keep them busy.

A particularly interesting example of this was UP's "City of Salina", which Salina-Kansas City, MO and back...and jammed in a quick midday turn to Topeka from Kansas City to boot. Note that the "turn times" were 0:30, 0:22, and 3:22 (and the last was likely just due to an inability to do anything else with the train in the middle of the afternoon). Just imagine Amtrak trying to schedule a 22-minute turnaround on a train today!

Schedule Link:

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track4/citysalina193809.html

 

[Anderson]

Sure, the fleet is getting overhauled, but the cuts aross the system are very bad IMO. If VIA can't restore some trains then they are definately doing BAD. I don't know why they're losing ridership while Amtrak is gaining a lot.

VIA's policy of cutting busy corridor trains is a fairly reliable way to lose ridership. Cutting frequency is well-known to be a recipe for cutting ridership. And VIA has never seemed to figure this out.

There were also complaints from people riding the Ocean as far as Moncton that the train was reliably busy until Moncton and less busy east of there, but it got cut to three-a-week over its entire length. Of couse, with CN wanting a reroute, this could be a deliberate effort to suppress ridership at Moncton, though I hope not.

There were also complaints from people in most of the cities on the cut corridor trains, that VIA was cutting useful and full trains while retaining in many cases the least useful train. Again, a recipe for ridership suppression. I can't think of any benefit VIA can get from this ridership suppression other than some short-term budgetary savings (pennywise pound-foolish). The Canadian has really been good only for cruise ridership for a long time, so I'm not terribly bothered by those cuts, but that isn't true of the corridor trains.

Amtrak made similar mistakes some years back when it made many, many trains into 3-a-week trains. Amtrak learned its lesson from that and reversed the process; now it doesn't want to operate anything less than daily. And after the experience in Illinois, it seems wiser to have twice-daily than daily.

Hopefully the Corridor cuts won't last.

Looking at what VIA cut in the corridor, I think the story is a bit complex. The Sarina route, as I understand it, is one of the worst-performing in the country at present (I believe it ranks up there with the Mandatory Service routes in Quebec and Manitoba in terms of CR humdingers). The Niagara route, on the other hand, is getting screwed up by GO Transit, which seems to be extending service.

The twits at VIA were also, IIRC, hawking "You have three ways to get from Niagara to Toronto!" lately, neverminding that two involve taking a bus for part or all of the trip (yeah, that's what I want...to take a G-D commuter bus instead of a train with OBS...whatever they're smoking, I think they swiped from Espee's stash). As you can imagine, I saw this and I think I wanted to throw something at the time. But I think the bus-commuter train option may have been making a hash of things here on the one hand, and I think there may have been an "offload the service" plan in the mix on the other.

The Moncton bit is a bit more of a head-scratcher. I'm honestly wondering (without looking at a timetable, mind you) why a day option Moncton-Montreal wasn't looked at, with a less-frequent overnight train to Halifax. Mind you, this is one of those parts of the world where good options don't seem to exist in terms of train timing/routing, but...ugh.