keelhauled
OBS Chief
To say nothing of the fact that they've already got the cash from the LSL trip, which would be the better part of the cost of the entire trip to Philadelphia anyway...
Baltimore to Chicago?
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jis
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Indeed! By a very significant proportion given how the prices are allocated between the LD leg and a corridor connection in a single through itinerary. Amtrak actually comes out way ahead by selling a seat on the NEC as a corridor seat rather than as an LD connection seat.
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neroden
Engineer
I should remember to reserve such tickets as a single itenerary to get the discount -- I never ever do, I always buy them on separate reservations (usually because my trip is super-complicated and it's easier to buy one leg at a time)
Philly Amtrak Fan
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When looking through old Broadway Limited schedules, I noticed that it used to serve Baltimore on a separate leg (through cars).
The original BL schedule, 1971 (via Harrisburg): http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19710501&item=0023
Last BL with WAS leg, 1981 (via Philadelphia): http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19810426&item=0036
But then the Capitol Limited replaced the Washington BL. Philly lost their direct train to Chicago in 1995/2005 but Baltimore lost theirs in 1981. And the thief wasn't that other train but the Capitol.
First CL schedule, 1981: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19811025&item=0033
WAS-CHI
1971: 5:00pm-9:00am
1981 (BL): 1:30pm-9:15am
1981 (CL): 3:20pm-9:35am
BAL-CHI:
1971: 5:40pm-9:00am
1981: 2:22pm-9:15am
Before the CL, the BL was the #1 route between CHI and WAS. The fastest route was via HAR (Port Road). The route via PHL was the slowest of the three. But by "rerouting" the CHI-WAS you save 1 hr 30 min but take away the direct train from BAL and give it to the boon dock towns between PGH and WAS. And this was in the days before HAR-PHL was electrified (don't remember if PHL-WAS was). I don't think you reroute away from BAL to save 1 hr, 30 min. Also, you could no longer go directly from PGH to BAL and from WAS/BAL to Lancaster/HAR/rest of PA.
I usually blame a certain train for taking away the direct train to PHL but the CL had a lot to do with the BL/TR being canceled as well. And what really is the point of the CL? To save 1 hr, 30 min? So Harpers Ferry can have a train? If they had not started the CL, the BL still exists today, Cardinal or no Cardinal. That's bad for Philly, bad for Harrisburg, bad for Lancaster, bad for Newark/Trenton, and bad for ... Baltimore. Anyone think that a certain senator had something to do with the CL?
The original BL schedule, 1971 (via Harrisburg): http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19710501&item=0023
Last BL with WAS leg, 1981 (via Philadelphia): http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19810426&item=0036
But then the Capitol Limited replaced the Washington BL. Philly lost their direct train to Chicago in 1995/2005 but Baltimore lost theirs in 1981. And the thief wasn't that other train but the Capitol.
First CL schedule, 1981: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19811025&item=0033
WAS-CHI
1971: 5:00pm-9:00am
1981 (BL): 1:30pm-9:15am
1981 (CL): 3:20pm-9:35am
BAL-CHI:
1971: 5:40pm-9:00am
1981: 2:22pm-9:15am
Before the CL, the BL was the #1 route between CHI and WAS. The fastest route was via HAR (Port Road). The route via PHL was the slowest of the three. But by "rerouting" the CHI-WAS you save 1 hr 30 min but take away the direct train from BAL and give it to the boon dock towns between PGH and WAS. And this was in the days before HAR-PHL was electrified (don't remember if PHL-WAS was). I don't think you reroute away from BAL to save 1 hr, 30 min. Also, you could no longer go directly from PGH to BAL and from WAS/BAL to Lancaster/HAR/rest of PA.
I usually blame a certain train for taking away the direct train to PHL but the CL had a lot to do with the BL/TR being canceled as well. And what really is the point of the CL? To save 1 hr, 30 min? So Harpers Ferry can have a train? If they had not started the CL, the BL still exists today, Cardinal or no Cardinal. That's bad for Philly, bad for Harrisburg, bad for Lancaster, bad for Newark/Trenton, and bad for ... Baltimore. Anyone think that a certain senator had something to do with the CL?
jis
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No. It was mostly a certain CEO of Amtrak. They wanted a premier train of their own to travel back and forth between Washington and Chicago 
Philly Amtrak Fan
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What was wrong with the Broadway Limited? Was saving 1.5 hours really that important to screw over Baltimore (and Wilmington)? I'm surprised Amtrak Joe Biden didn't get involved (or maybe he wasn't that important back then?) And if they really cared about DC, they should've kept Port Road going.No. It was mostly a certain CEO of Amtrak. They wanted a premier train of their own to travel back and forth between Washington and Chicago
Ryan
Court Jester
Speak for yourself, I live in Baltimore and didn't get screwed. It's dead-simple to get to DC and then take the Cap to Chicago.
But connections are evil, Ryan! You should never have to connect to go anywhere!
Alexandria Nick
Lead Service Attendant
Good for Martinsburg, good for Cumberland, good for Connellsville, good for Pittsburgh.
If I had to go to Philly to travel DC to Pittsburgh, I'd never take the train ever. Except WAS to NYP because, well, obvious reasons. The eight hour trip already stinks compared to every mode that isn't a bicycle. Adding another 90 minutes to it would be ridiculous. I could drive to Pittsburgh and back to DC before the train even got to Pittsburgh!
They got it back around 2003.
IIRC part of the issue was that Conrail (or some other entity) wanted to abandon the BAL-HAR tracks (or downgrade them massively) and this was really the next-best routing available. Providing a connecting train at WAS isn't a trivial consideration, either, and neither is direct service from WAS to points west not involving the Cardinal (which kills an additional half day going WAS-CHI). Remember, WAS-CHI is part of the "basic system" from A-Day.
To be fair, this isn't to say that it wouldn't make sense to run a train NYP-WAS-PGH-CHI (like the Capitol Limited ran at inception) were single-level equipment being used. However, considering the high frequency of service between Baltimore and DC (in particular), that's a relatively painless transfer to force IMHO (it's no worse than, say, FBG-WAS).
Edit: Also, Philly Amtrak Fan? PHL-HAR and PHL-WAS have been electrified since the 1930s. Port Road was also electrified until 1981, apparently.
To be fair, this isn't to say that it wouldn't make sense to run a train NYP-WAS-PGH-CHI (like the Capitol Limited ran at inception) were single-level equipment being used. However, considering the high frequency of service between Baltimore and DC (in particular), that's a relatively painless transfer to force IMHO (it's no worse than, say, FBG-WAS).
Edit: Also, Philly Amtrak Fan? PHL-HAR and PHL-WAS have been electrified since the 1930s. Port Road was also electrified until 1981, apparently.
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Philly Amtrak Fan
Engineer
But when the TR was canceled, PGH lost one of their trains to HAR-PHL-NYP and now have only one. Plus, the CL arrives in PGH at 5:05am while the 1994 BL arrived at 7:25am. I'm sure PGH would rather have the BL/TR back even if it means an extra 2 hrs to DC.
BAL-CHI:
1971: 5:40pm-9:00am
1981: 2:22pm-9:15am
2003: 12:05pm-11:00am
2016: 9:30am-10:05am
Yep, they got a train in 2003 that took 4 hours longer than it did in 1981.
So to recap...
An extra two hours WAS to CHI : Horrible
An extra four hours BAL to CHI - No problem
Take away a direct train from BAL to CHI - No problem, we can get to WAS easily
Take away a direct train from Martinsburg, WV to CHI - We can't do that! I mean Martinsburg can't take another train to WAS easily. Oh wait, they can! https://mta.maryland.gov/schedules/display.php?route=brunswick_eastbound.xls
What is your fascination with direct routes to Chicago in particular? Martinsburg has a few eastbound trains and a few westbound trains each day total (and only one of those four each way actually goes beyond Martinsburg - DC.) Baltimore has connections to numerous towns all along the east coast, and there's both commuter rail and light rail - bus - Metrorail connecting Baltimore and DC.
Also, in the same post that you complain about how four extra hours on a "direct train" is terrible for BAL, you wave off any complaints of two extra hours for both WAS and PGH. Considering just how many connection possibilities there are between BAL and DC, I think that's more than a fair tradeoff. Heck, many people south of Baltimore proper may already find it just as easy to take commuter rail to DC as it would be to get to BAL.
Also, in the same post that you complain about how four extra hours on a "direct train" is terrible for BAL, you wave off any complaints of two extra hours for both WAS and PGH. Considering just how many connection possibilities there are between BAL and DC, I think that's more than a fair tradeoff. Heck, many people south of Baltimore proper may already find it just as easy to take commuter rail to DC as it would be to get to BAL.
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Also, tell me: If we remove the Capitol Limited from Martinsburg, how easy could someone get anywhere from there on a train over the weekend? How does that compare to Baltimore?
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Seaboard92
Engineer
The Capitol Limited serves its purpose and serves it well. And personally I think no where is the middle of nowhere. To someone in Harper's Ferry their town is somewhere and Philly might be dare I say a nowhere place. Personally I don't see the big deal here.
You don't see Florida constantly bemoaning the loss of their direct train to Florida. And you don't see Denver bemoaning their loss of service to Portland.
Truth is Philly has some of the best service nation wide. If I want to go to Chicago I have to go either to NYP or WAS. When back in the 60s I could go direct from twenty miles from my house. So for me it is sixteen additional hours including layover. Philly is what an additional two hours. That isn't really that bad.
So I don't see what the big issue is. And I don't think blaming every other train that runs as a method to get anywhere. Those places want service just as much I'm sure as it is usually the only public transport out.
I think the people you should blame are your congressmen who didn't do anything when you lost the train. And your fellow citizens for not supporting the train.
You don't see Florida constantly bemoaning the loss of their direct train to Florida. And you don't see Denver bemoaning their loss of service to Portland.
Truth is Philly has some of the best service nation wide. If I want to go to Chicago I have to go either to NYP or WAS. When back in the 60s I could go direct from twenty miles from my house. So for me it is sixteen additional hours including layover. Philly is what an additional two hours. That isn't really that bad.
So I don't see what the big issue is. And I don't think blaming every other train that runs as a method to get anywhere. Those places want service just as much I'm sure as it is usually the only public transport out.
I think the people you should blame are your congressmen who didn't do anything when you lost the train. And your fellow citizens for not supporting the train.
jis
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I find that bringing New Jersey into the discussion about an NYP - PHL - PGH - CHI direct train does not seem to generate much excitement/interest in NJ at all. Most people in NJ are perfectly OK with taking NJT which they can usually get at a station with much larger parking lot much more frequently than Amtrak trains, to get to New York and catch the LSL from there. This leads me to believe that the PHL - PGH - CHI is primarily a PHL problem, not an NJ problem.
The reality is that people in and around NWK tend to go to NYP for catching anything westbound anyway. The entire Hoboken Division of NJT connects better to NYP than to NWK. No Amtrak LD train except the Palmetto stops anywhere else in NJ other than TRE and NWK. Even most Keystones don't stop anywhere in NJ other than NWK and TRE. One has to somehow get to TRE or NWK to get on an LD train anyway, and one tends to do so using NJT. It is a minor addition to go to NYP instead of NWK.
If there were such a train would it be marginally better for NJ? Of course. But it ain't a showstopper by any means for anyone in North and Central NJ. It is potentially more of an issue for folks in the Pinelands in Southern NJ and places like Camden maybe. But NJT provides rather good service even from there to get to New York via Trenton.
The reality is that people in and around NWK tend to go to NYP for catching anything westbound anyway. The entire Hoboken Division of NJT connects better to NYP than to NWK. No Amtrak LD train except the Palmetto stops anywhere else in NJ other than TRE and NWK. Even most Keystones don't stop anywhere in NJ other than NWK and TRE. One has to somehow get to TRE or NWK to get on an LD train anyway, and one tends to do so using NJT. It is a minor addition to go to NYP instead of NWK.
If there were such a train would it be marginally better for NJ? Of course. But it ain't a showstopper by any means for anyone in North and Central NJ. It is potentially more of an issue for folks in the Pinelands in Southern NJ and places like Camden maybe. But NJT provides rather good service even from there to get to New York via Trenton.
Philly Amtrak Fan
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Seaboard92
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But isn't that the sticks the boonies. I thought Philly was the only city in PA. It's the only one I go thru
jis
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Besides I was talking of New Jersey. Last time I looked none of those towns I mentioned were in NJ.
Anthony V
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Extending the Lake Shore Limited to Washington is a great idea to pick up Baltimore to Chicago service. However, that would make the Capitol Limited redundant in the TOL-CLE-WAS market. To solve that problem, the CL can be rerouted over the former Three Rivers route (B&O through Fostoria, Akron and Youngstown, OH), but with one change. At Fostoria, the route would fork to the Southwest about 5 miles to Arcadia, then head west from there through Ft. Wayne, IN and onto Chicago. This way, it picks up Ft. Wayne in addition to restoring service to Fostoria, Akron and Youngstown, all while eliminating the redundant TOL-CLE-WAS service. One of AAO's concerns about restoring the TR to it's former route is the lack of population centers west of Akron, but having a service restored to that route diverge to also serve Ft. Wayne will solve that problem.
Ryan
Court Jester
Extending the LSL to WAS doesn't go far enough. Go ahead and extend it to Florida and we won't have to work about the Floridian either, Chicago will get their one seat ride.
At that point just make it a circle and leave FL for New Orleans and the back north to Chicago. Take All The Trains and run them in circles and it'll be a one seat ride to EVERYWHERE!!!!!
At that point just make it a circle and leave FL for New Orleans and the back north to Chicago. Take All The Trains and run them in circles and it'll be a one seat ride to EVERYWHERE!!!!!
Did someone move from Philly to Bal'more?
west point
Engineer
Ladies and Gentlemen: It is time to get a big dose of reality with all these proposals. Although many routes have merit there is a large constraint.. Equipment, equipment, equipment. Not only is there not enough equipment to go around there is the obvious need to centralize equipment control. Remember Sunnyside is the termination of all single level LD trains except the BOS extension. That allows the normal rotation of single level LD cars to the Hialeah maintenance facility. As well spare cars are usually only kept at SSY.
Also there is not the costs for additional training of maintenance personnel for specialized equipment items and spare parts.
This is a somewhat problem for a single level Capitol. If there are CL coaches and sleepers that would go thru to MIA then not so much but Single CL gets to the point that spare equipment would be needed in CHI.
Can we ever get congress to agree to a doubling of the LD fleets ? Highly doubt that. Please note the result of the Heritage coaches and sleepers being scrapped due to some perceived underuse during slack travel period times..
Equipment utilization has to be scheduled so high traffic times allow all cars to operate in almost continuous service.
Also there is not the costs for additional training of maintenance personnel for specialized equipment items and spare parts.
This is a somewhat problem for a single level Capitol. If there are CL coaches and sleepers that would go thru to MIA then not so much but Single CL gets to the point that spare equipment would be needed in CHI.
Can we ever get congress to agree to a doubling of the LD fleets ? Highly doubt that. Please note the result of the Heritage coaches and sleepers being scrapped due to some perceived underuse during slack travel period times..
Equipment utilization has to be scheduled so high traffic times allow all cars to operate in almost continuous service.
Philly Amtrak Fan
Engineer
Shocking, I know! I care about some cities other than Philly!
Yes, back in 1981 you could've had a one seat ride from WIL to CHI every day of the week ... and it took less than 20 hours (3:26pm ET to 9:15am CT). Now it takes more than 26 (8:44am ET to 10:05am CT). You would've loved it.
You don't know me, so please don't say "you would've loved it."
