ATS on the RF&P Main

[Anderson]

I was chatting with a lady on the NE Regional this morning (#88) while we stopped (something tripped a sensor), and she said that there's an old ATS system on part of the RF&P main line that hasn't been taken down (it is apparently rather expensive to pull out the sensors). I'm wondering:

1) Is this true?

2) If so, what class is the track from RVR-ALX? ATS usually implies that you can crack 79 MPH...if you've got class 5 track. However, I don't know if the track is class 5 for any of the distance.

3) Does the presence of ATS on this line (if this is, in fact, true) mean that it's going to be a bit easier to get the RVR-WAS trains up to at least 90 MPH? Or is CSX being difficult here (as the freights are wont to do)?

 

[jis]

I was chatting with a lady on the NE Regional this morning (#88) while we stopped (something tripped a sensor), and she said that there's an old ATS system on part of the RF&P main line that hasn't been taken down (it is apparently rather expensive to pull out the sensors). I'm wondering:

1) Is this true?

Yes

2) If so, what class is the track from RVR-ALX? ATS usually implies that you can crack 79 MPH...if you've got class 5 track. However, I don't know if the track is class 5 for any of the distance.

I believe RF&P has always been a 65 - 75mph Class 4 railroad, but I could be wrong.

3) Does the presence of ATS on this line (if this is, in fact, true) mean that it's going to be a bit easier to get the RVR-WAS trains up to at least 90 MPH? Or is CSX being difficult here (as the freights are wont to do)?

It will have to be upgraded to some form of PTC and of course CSX has to agree. There are plans on the drawing board and off and on talks sputtering along to electrify and upgrade to 110, but I am not holding my breath. Might get a bit more momentum after the SEHSR from Petersburg to Raleigh is completed and put into service.

The current plans are to triple track it all the way to Fredericksburg, which is coming along quite well. It is not clear at all how speeds will be increased any through Ashland VA though. A decision has finally been made last year not to move Amtrak off of this alignment to the Doswell sub (ex-C&O). Eventually I think this line will see significant upgradation, but not imminently.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I was chatting with a lady on the NE Regional this morning (#88) while we stopped (something tripped a sensor), and she said that there's an old ATS system on part of the RF&P main line that hasn't been taken down (it is apparently rather expensive to pull out the sensors). I'm wondering:

1) Is this true?

Yes

2) If so, what class is the track from RVR-ALX? ATS usually implies that you can crack 79 MPH...if you've got class 5 track. However, I don't know if the track is class 5 for any of the distance.

I believe RF&P has always been a 65 - 75mph Class 4 railroad, but I could be wrong.

3) Does the presence of ATS on this line (if this is, in fact, true) mean that it's going to be a bit easier to get the RVR-WAS trains up to at least 90 MPH? Or is CSX being difficult here (as the freights are wont to do)?

It will have to be upgraded to some form of PTC and of course CSX has to agree. There are plans on the drawing board and off and on talks sputtering along to electrify and upgrade to 110, but I am not holding my breath. Might get a bit more momentum after the SEHSR from Petersburg to Raleigh is completed and put into service.

The current plans are to triple track it all the way to Fredericksburg, which is coming along quite well. It is not clear at all how speeds will be increased any through Ashland VA though. A decision has finally been made last year not to move Amtrak off of this alignment to the Doswell sub (ex-C&O). Eventually I think this line will see significant upgradation, but not imminently.

jis,

I had to look up what exactly an ATS system is, but having done so, it has made me curious. Since it is potentially in my own back yard, so to speak, do you know what section(s) of the old RF&P had it? If it is not too far away, I'm pondering doing a field trip to investigate it further. Any additional info would be appreciated.

Thanks! :hi: :hi: :hi:

'Davy'

 

[George Harris]

The entire RF&P main has it.

So far as I know, the speed limit for passenger trains on the RF&P has be 70 mph for many years.

A higher speed limit would be almost meaningless due to the alignment. There are numerous 2 degree curves, particularly south of Fredericksburg. A practical speed limit on these curves is no more than 70 mph. Unless and until major realignment work is done, there is not much in the way of speed increases that are practical.

 

[battalion51]

Maximum Speed Permitted on the RF&P is 70 MPH, and has been for a long long time. This is pretty much the only section of mainline the Auto Train runs where it could theoretically pace any other passenger train the entire way. The ATS/Cab Signals are still used today on all trains, and does allow the trains to run more efficiently. AFAIK the RF&P was one of the first to install ATS with FEC being the other big one that comes to mind. I could be wrong though.

 

[orulz]

The current plans are to triple track it all the way to Fredericksburg, which is coming along quite well.

Is it? I have heard that VA is having difficulty negotiating terms with CSX for the Arkendale-Powell Creek third track that was funded by ARRA, and it's not clear at all that they will be able to reach any sort of agreement at all.

From a passenger rail standpoint, it's too bad the state of VA didn't buy the RF&P when they had the chance in or about 1992.

 

[jis]

The current plans are to triple track it all the way to Fredericksburg, which is coming along quite well.

Is it? I have heard that VA is having difficulty negotiating terms with CSX for the Arkendale-Powell Creek third track that was funded by ARRA, and it's not clear at all that they will be able to reach any sort of agreement at all.

From a passenger rail standpoint, it's too bad the state of VA didn't buy the RF&P when they had the chance in or about 1992.

Hey, even with all the disagreements it is coming along way better than say trying to get UP to agree to make the Sunset daily.

 

[Anderson]

The current plans are to triple track it all the way to Fredericksburg, which is coming along quite well.

Is it? I have heard that VA is having difficulty negotiating terms with CSX for the Arkendale-Powell Creek third track that was funded by ARRA, and it's not clear at all that they will be able to reach any sort of agreement at all.

From a passenger rail standpoint, it's too bad the state of VA didn't buy the RF&P when they had the chance in or about 1992.

Well, they were too busy selling the power company at that point...*sighs* Yeah, VA should probably have done so...but it wasn't in the ideological cards at the time, and there's still a strong push in that direction more broadly with things like trying to sell the liquor stores. Then again...what was the story with the RF&P getting swallowed into CSX, and wouldn't one hell of a bidding war broken out?

 

[jis]

Then again...what was the story with the RF&P getting swallowed into CSX, and wouldn't one hell of a bidding war broken out?

Why would anyone else want to bid on something that was already 3/5ths (or so) owned by CSX and primarily connects CSX to CSX?

 

[Anderson]

Then again...what was the story with the RF&P getting swallowed into CSX, and wouldn't one hell of a bidding war broken out?

Why would anyone else want to bid on something that was already 3/5ths (or so) owned by CSX and primarily connects CSXZ to CSX?

I was thinking the state wrestling with CSX. Also, at the time didn't the northern end connect to CR/AMTK instead of CSXT/CSXZ?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

IIRC, was not the RF&P owned by the Virginia Retirement System for a long while?

 

[George Harris]

IIRC, was not the RF&P owned by the Virginia Retirement System for a long while?

About 20% of it, if I recall correctly. For the most part, the rest was owned by the other railroad companies to which it connected. If you really wanted to know, it could probably be found in one of the rail oriented on line sites.

The north end of the RF&P was the south end of the Patomac River Bridge. The Bridge itself was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Thus, the RF&P was entirely within the state of Virginia.

 

[Anderson]

IIRC, was not the RF&P owned by the Virginia Retirement System for a long while?

About 20% of it, if I recall correctly. For the most part, the rest was owned by the other railroad companies to which it connected. If you really wanted to know, it could probably be found in one of the rail oriented on line sites.

The north end of the RF&P was the south end of the Patomac River Bridge. The Bridge itself was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Thus, the RF&P was entirely within the state of Virginia.

Wow. Of course, there's a difference between owning a bunch of shares in a RR (which that sounds like) and owning a railroad that you have to manage outright (which a buyout would involve). I seem to recall that the RF&P was at one point collectively owned by the C&O, B&O, SAL, ACL, and someone else...but I can't recall who. It might've been the Pennsy, but I'm not sure. If this is right, my best guess would be that the VRS bought out the Pennsy share, while the other four shares accrued to CSX.

 

[George Harris]

IIRC, was not the RF&P owned by the Virginia Retirement System for a long while?

About 20% of it, if I recall correctly. For the most part, the rest was owned by the other railroad companies to which it connected. If you really wanted to know, it could probably be found in one of the rail oriented on line sites.

The north end of the RF&P was the south end of the Patomac River Bridge. The Bridge itself was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Thus, the RF&P was entirely within the state of Virginia.

Wow. Of course, there's a difference between owning a bunch of shares in a RR (which that sounds like) and owning a railroad that you have to manage outright (which a buyout would involve). I seem to recall that the RF&P was at one point collectively owned by the C&O, B&O, SAL, ACL, and someone else...but I can't recall who. It might've been the Pennsy, but I'm not sure. If this is right, my best guess would be that the VRS bought out the Pennsy share, while the other four shares accrued to CSX.

I believe that the VRS ownership went way back. RF&P dividents were a significant source of income for the retirement system. For most of its existance the RF&P was a very profitable operation. Basically the RF&P was a double track railroad with two huge yards, one on each end. Their total track miles was in the neighborhood of three times their route miles.

 

[jis]

The other railroad that owned part of RF&P when originally chartered, in addition to those already mentioned, were Pennsulvania and Southern.

Pennsyvania interchanged southbound freight from the NE at Potomac Yard. This was the huge yard at the North end of RF&P that George alludes to above. Of course at present Potomac Yard is a huge suburban office, hotel and mall complex. The Crystal City VRE station is located in that area. And CSX still interchanges southbound freight with - well - itself, at Potomac Yard, except that they don't stop there anymore. They just run through.

Southern's trains out of Washington DC traveled on RF&P from RO to AF/Camerons Run before they gained Southern's own trackage. The same segment of ex-RF&P, now CSX is used by the Crescent, Cardinal and the Lynchburg Regional to get to NS trackage at AF/Camerons Run. The Alexandria station is in this segment.

Of course the Cardinal then leaves NS (ex-Southern) trackage to get onto BBRR/CSX (ex-C&O) trackage at Orange.

BTW, how much regional service was there between Washington DC and Richmond back in the days? Unfortunately the Official Railway Guides only appear to show the through LD trains. Which of course says nothing about what if any local/regional service existed on the RF&P.

 

[Anderson]

I've counted something like 20-30 trains/day over that route in the '56 guide, but I'd have to check...there was a decent amount of Pennsy/RF&P joint service that ran Richmond (or Petersburg) to New York, from what I can tell. If I had to guess, though, there wasn't much "regional" service because there was so much LD service running down the ACL/SAL. Of course, during WW2 this was supplemented to death...I think RVR-WAS was hosting over 140 trains/day at one point (i.e. you basically had DC Metro-level frequencies on that intercity route).

 

[George Harris]

BTW, how much regional service was there between Washington DC and Richmond back in the days? Unfortunately the Official Railway Guides only appear to show the through LD trains. Which of course says nothing about what if any local/regional service existed on the RF&P.

So far as I know there was no service on the RF&P othere than that shown in the guide. Until the advent of VRE there was no commuter service as such on their line.

The Southern Railway's zero point for their mainline mileposting was and is Washington DC. Therefore, they did not even own the point of their nominal zero milepost location.

When I was first in the DC area, 1969, the Pennsylvania, by that time Penn Central was still operating electrified freight. The electrification went into Patomac Yard. Therefore, for the distance beyond the south end of the Patomac River bridge, the tracks and land were owned by RF&P and supported an electrification system owned by another railroad.

There are many strange and unusual combinations of ownership and operating arrangements in the railroad world in this country, of which this is one of the easier to comprehend. One other example of this: During the mid 1960's I made several trips between Memphis and Knoxville. In this distance we crossed the Tennessee River three times. Each bridge and approaching track was different in its ownership. The first, going west to east, was at Decatur, Alabama. This bridge was owned by Southern and the Louisville and Nashville had trackage rights over it, carrying their Lousiville to the Gulf mainline. The second crossing was at Bridgeport. Alabama. This bridge was owned by the L&N (formerly NC&St.L). It was and is within a 40 mile segment of Southern Railway trackage rights between Stevenson, AL and just east of Lookout Mountain, TN on the L&N's Nashville to Atlanta mainline. over which Southern had trackage rights. Both of these were drawbidges. At that time they were both swing spans. The draw sections are now vertical lifts. The third crossing was at Loudon, Tennessee. It was owned by Southern and used only by them. It was and is a fixed bridge. Despite all the meger mainia of recent years, the joint use conditions still prevail, with Norfolk Southern replacing Southern and CSX replacing L&N.