Anybody remember The Pioneer?

[tubaia]

While hanging around the station at East Glacier, I saw an Amtrak poster for The Pioneer. I'm fairly new to taking Amtrak, but I have at least been looking at the schedules for a few years, and I do not recall this route. Which is odd, as it looks like it went right through my state, and ends up near my preferred destination.

The poster that I saw is a typical Amtrak poster, where it lists the stops in small print around the large graphic. It listed the route as starting in Chicago and following the same route as the CZ until maybe Denver. It then cut northwest through Wyoming and southern Idaho (which are currently unserved), and ended up in Portland.

Does any body know (okay, stupid question for this group) how long ago that route died? Why did it go away, just the usual lack of money and ridership? Any other memories of this route?

Are there other Amtrak routes of the western US that no longer exist? Being a RR geek, I'm really curious now.

BTW, speaking of the East Glacier station, if you ever embark/disembark there, take some time to look through the exhibits inside the station. There is some very interesting information on the East Glacier area, as well as on the Great Northern.

 

[the_traveler]

The Pioneer ran between CHI and SEA. For the eastern portion, it was combined with the California Zephyr. For many years, the CZ and Pioneer (and the Desert Wind also) ran together from Chicago to SLC. There, the train split with the CZ going to EMY, the Pioneer going to SEA and the Desert Wind going to LAS and LAX. (In the last years, the Pioneer split from the CZ in DEN, going via WY.)

The Pioneer ran from SLC to Ogden, Boise and along the south shore of the Columbia River to PDX. It then continued up to SEA on the CS route.

I'm not sure exactly when it stopped running, but I want to say that both the Pioneer and Desert Wind ceased running in 1997.

 

[WICT106]

While hanging around the station at East Glacier, I saw an Amtrak poster for The Pioneer. I'm fairly new to taking Amtrak, but I have at least been looking at the schedules for a few years, and I do not recall this route. Which is odd, as it looks like it went right through my state, and ends up near my preferred destination.
The poster that I saw is a typical Amtrak poster, where it lists the stops in small print around the large graphic. It listed the route as starting in Chicago and following the same route as the CZ until maybe Denver. It then cut northwest through Wyoming and southern Idaho (which are currently unserved), and ended up in Portland.

Does any body know (okay, stupid question for this group) how long ago that route died? Why did it go away, just the usual lack of money and ridership? Any other memories of this route?

Are there other Amtrak routes of the western US that no longer exist? Being a RR geek, I'm really curious now.

BTW, speaking of the East Glacier station, if you ever embark/disembark there, take some time to look through the exhibits inside the station. There is some very interesting information on the East Glacier area, as well as on the Great Northern.

It stopped running in 1997. There were some equipment shortages about that time; which have remained. Had these equipment shortages not existed, the Pioneer would still be with us.

 

[MrFSS]

I don't have the 97 table handy, but here are the 95 TTs for the trains in question.

Sorry they are big - but that's the only way they can be read.

 

[yarrow]

were the pioneer and desert wind able to be discontinued by amtrak because they offered amtrak thruway bus service? could they theoretically discontinue any route if they offered bus service?

 

[WICT106]

were the pioneer and desert wind able to be discontinued by amtrak because they offered amtrak thruway bus service? could they theoretically discontinue any route if they offered bus service?

No. They were discontinued due in part to budget pressures and equipment shortages.

 

[saxman]

I also notice they didn't run everyday. Some days it would split in Salt Lake with the Desert Wind going south and the CZ going West. Then other days it would split in Denver on days the Pioneer ran. So didn't after this all the western trains start running daily? Daily trains are a must so all in all a good decision even though it meant the sacrifice of two other routes. Maybe we'll get these two routes back one day in our lifetime.

 

[Montanan]

The Pioneer started in 1977, as a Salt Lake-Seattle train, using single-level equipment. It didn't get through equipment to Chicago until the early 1980s, when the train received Superliner cars. The connection with the Zephyr happened in Ogden/Salt Lake until the early 90s, when the Wyoming extension was added ... after that, the CZ connection was made in Denver, and the Pioneer stopped serving Salt Lake.

The train operated daily until the last couple of years of its life.

I remember riding it in 1979, but just vaguely. I think the train had 3 or 4 Amfleet coaches and a cafe/lounge car; I don't recall a sleeper, though there might have been one. The ride over the Blue Mountains was great, and I remember setting my alarm for the wee hours so I could watch the spectacular trackage above Cutler Dam, in Utah.

Though it's been 11 years, now, many of the old Pioneer station stops still have their Amtrak signs, and some of the bus shelter-like stations still exist, as well.

 

[Montanan]

In addition to the Pioneer and Desert Wind, there have been several other western Amtrak routes that have been discontinued. The longest was the "North Coast Hiawatha," which was a Chicago-Seattle train, following the current ex-Milwaukee Road tracks from Chicago to St. Paul, and then generally the old Northern Pacific west of there -- through Bismarck, Billings, Missoula, and Spokane. It was tri-weekly for most of its life, though it ran daily some summers, and was sometimes combined with the Empire Builder east of St. Paul and/or west of Spokane. It was discontinued in September 1979.

A second 1979 discontinuance was the Texas Chief (later named the Lone Star), which ran Chicago-Kansas City-Ft. Worth-Houston. A shorter western route that was discontinued was between San Antonio and Laredo.

 

[MrFSS]

When all these trains were discontinued I assume they went through the 180 day notice thing we keep hearing about with the SSL???

 

[JohnF]

The Lone Star and others were part of the Jimmy Carter massacre of Amtrak. The Pioneer and Desert Wind would have been under Clinton. I think Reagan also went after Amtrak during his administration. I particularly remember him bashing the National Limited, a St Louis to New York train. It seems every President wants to make his budget cutting mark by bashing Amtrak. Hopefully that will change now that gasoline is so expensive and people are starting to wake up to the advantages of passenger rail travel.

I rode the Union Pacific's City of Portland in 1962 which traced the same route as the later day Pioneer. It was a great trip and going across Wyoming was train after train on the UP and the scenery along the Columbia River was superb. From Houston we took the Burlington's Sam Houston Zephyr to Dallas and the Texas Zephyr to Denver. On the return we went to Vancouver, BC and took the Canadian Pacific's Canadian across Canada to Winipeg, then the Soo Line to St Paul and the RI Twin Star Rocket back to Houston. It was a great trip. The purpose was supposedly to visit the Seattle Worlds Fair which we did. But for me it was a great train ride. One which cannot be duplicated now anywhere except between Portland to Vancouver.

 

[RailFanLNK]

I would totally dig having the Desert Wind serve LNK from CHI to LAS. My girlfriends son lives in Vegas and with the AU gathering in LAX this year, I really have to go to some extremes to get to LA by rail. I have to rent a car in LNK and drive to KCY. Then when I come back, I will take the SWC to GBB and then connect with the CZ to LNK. I would love to see both of these routes back but rather doubt that we will ever see them.

Also, when folks start asking questions about Amtrak, having these forementioned routes mentioned, you can get to LA, SF and SEA along with Vegas etc. With just the CZ, its pretty much San Francisco, Denver and Chicago.

 

[Guest_TransAtlantic_*]

There's a lot of demand for the return of the Desert Wind, but (as usual) Amtrak is having to deal with the UP...but on a more promising note, there are substantial rumors about the Pioneer...watch this space!!!...

 

[WICT106]

There's a lot of demand for the return of the Desert Wind, but (as usual) Amtrak is having to deal with the UP...but on a more promising note, there are substantial rumors about the Pioneer...watch this space!!!...

Well, best of luck regarding the return of these two routes. They wuld have to contend with the congestion and high levels of freight traffic on these two UP routes, and UP would no doubt prefer that these two passenger trains *not* return … unless, of course, Amtrak could sweeten the deal by paying for the necessary upgrades in both track capacity and FRA Class.

 

[jackal]

There's a lot of demand for the return of the Desert Wind, but (as usual) Amtrak is having to deal with the UP...but on a more promising note, there are substantial rumors about the Pioneer...watch this space!!!...

Well, best of luck regarding the return of these two routes. They wuld have to contend with the congestion and high levels of freight traffic on these two UP routes, and UP would no doubt prefer that these two passenger trains *not* return … unless, of course, Amtrak could sweeten the deal by paying for the necessary upgrades in both track capacity and FRA Class.

Have the turtles moved on to browner pastures?

ISTR that Amtrak was indeed willing to pay for the "necessary" upgrades a few years ago, but, according to at least some [very vocal] enviros, apparently it's better for the environment to pollute the desert with emissions from cars traveling along I-15 than it is to take an extra eight feet of space next to an already-existing right-of-way to lay new track that will allow a far-more-fuel-efficient train to run and take cars off the road.

 

[Rob_C]

I'll have to see if I can dig up where I saw this, but I remember hearing a while back that the (count them) two attempts so far to restore service from LAX to LAS were basically squashed by special interests operating casinos in the state of California that don't want additional ways to get people to Vegas. As you may know, our governator is very much in bed with these groups and even though the city of LAS made a big PR pitch about the new train a few years back, California got in the way citing the aforementioned environmental reasons which were at least partly a smokescreen for the other casino interests that have the state's ear.

So if that's any indication, we won't see any sort of return of the Desert Wind at least until state politics change, or something happens on the national stage.

FWIW...

Rob

 

[creddick]

When we rode the Pioneer in 1991, it split off from the CZ and Desert Wind in Denver. The Pioneer then continued on to Portland, Tacoma, and finally ended up in Seattle. To complete the trip, we rode the EB back to Chicago. It was a great trip. Hopefully, both the Desert Wind and the Pioneer will be back some day.

 

[JohnF]

For the Desert Wind or the Pioneer to come back the UP will have to upgrade it's handling of passenger trains, that is run them on time. They could leave Chicago together, but they would never arrive at the same place on time to get back. One or the other would always be 4-5 hours late trashing the schedule of the others. The Pioneer could be run as a separate train using the UP from Denver via Cheyenne and Laramie. The Desert Wind could just be a SLC to LAX train which would run independently of the CZ. It could then leave SLC at a reasonable time with a morning arrival in Las Vegas and do the reverse on the return or it could just be a part of the CZ and run with unreliable timings.

 

[WICT106]

When all these trains were discontinued I assume they went through the 180 day notice thing we keep hearing about with the SSL???

No. The 180 day requirement did not exist at the time these trains were discontinued.

 

[PaulM]

I took the Pioneer from Burlington to Seattle and from Denver to Pocatello in the early 90's. It had the standard superliner consists except that one side of the diner was the diner and the other the lounge. At that time it split from the CZ at Denver.

I also remember that one half of the "lounge" half of the diner (4 tables) was non-smoking and the other 4 tables smoking. I wrote to Amtrak customer relations with the obvious complaint. I received an automated response that didn't sound to promising for the future. But soon they went to a smoking area in the basement of a coach, and then to smoke stops. How times have changed! In this case for the better.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Discontinued Amtrak routes? My god there must be a hundred of them.

Just glancing through two timetables on my desk right now...

Motrealler: (Washington-Montreal) Overnight service to Montreal more or less like the current Vermonter but leaving WAS at 8PM.

Broadway Limited(Washington/New York - Chicago): Followed the current Pennsylvanians route, then went via Pittsburgh & Ft. Wayne to Chicago (Famous train, of course)

Three Rivers(New York-Chicago): Lower service version of above

National LimitedNew York/Washington-Kansas City) Going via PRR mainline from New York & Washington to Pittsburgh, then Columbus, Indianapolis, St. Louis, and Kansas City. More like the old Pennsy's Spirit of St. Louis then the B&O's National Limited. Infact, in early 1971, it was even still called the Spirit of St. Louis.

Niagara Rainbow 1: (New York - Detroit) Went around Lake Erie to the North through Canada.

Niagara Rainbow 2: (New York - Toronto) An overnight version of the Maple Leaf.

Spirit of California: (LAX-SAC) A short lived 403(B) train that ran overnight with sleepers.

James Whitcomb Riley: (Washington-Chicago) Much like the Cardinal (Actually, the original Cardinal followed its route), except it bypassed Indianapolis and instead went via Richmond, IN. At some times it was ran west bound only, with the identical George Washington doing the eastbound.

Mountaineer: (Norfolk, VA-Chicago) Combined with the James Whitcomb Riley at Cincinati.

Floridian: (Chicago-Miami/St.Petersburg) Really. Ran Chicago to Florida. Originally named on Amtrak the South Wind

Lone StarChicago-Houston) This originally ran as the Texas Chief until Santa Fe got tired of Amtrak disgracing their name. Followed the same route as that illustrious train.

The Hilltopper: My personal favourite, it was dubbed the "Train to Nowhere". It ran from Boston to Washington overnight as 66/67 (which would be the Twilight Shoreliner one day) then continued, sans sleeping cars, along to Cattlettsburg of all places. It was known as the Night Owl when on the corridor.

There is a lot more where this came from, but I'm not digging through every single one of my schedules to dig them out.

 

[PRR 60]

Motrealler: (Washington-Montreal) Overnight service to Montreal more or less like the current Vermonter but leaving WAS at 8PM.
Broadway Limited(Washington/New York - Chicago): Followed the current Pennsylvanians route, then went via Pittsburgh & Ft. Wayne to Chicago (Famous train, of course)

Three Rivers(New York-Chicago): Lower service version of above

The Montrealer left Washington just after 4pm, New York just before 9, and got to Montreal at 10:45am, more or less. Coming back it left Montreal at 5:20pm and got to Washington just after noon. I rode it one-way from Philadelphia to Montreal in 1994 on a business trip. I was in a Bedroom on a former Union Pacific sleeper. It was a pretty nice ride. You called in a night on the NEC and awakened in northern Vermont: quite a contrast.

The Broadway Limited of the Amtrak era was The General of the PRR era. The PRR killed the real Broadway Limited in 1967 when all-Pullman trains 28 (EB) and 29 (WB) were dropped. The observation car: gone. The famed Master Rooms: gone. The 16 hour schedule (left NY at 6pm, arrived Chicago at 8am): gone. The General, PRR trains 48 and 49, simply adopted the Broadway name, but kept the General's slower schedule, lesser consists (for the most part), and numbers. Amtrak took over the PC's version of the Broadway, but to us purists, it was still The General.

In 1990, Amtrak's Broadway was rerouted from the Conrail former PRR's Fort Wayne line onto CSX's former B&O line through Youngstown OH and Nappanee IN. The sound that was heard was former PRR people rolling over in their graves. The Amtrak Broadway died on September 10, 1995 when the last trains arrived at New York and Chicago. I took my daughter out to Paoli to see the last westbound. But it was an impostor. The real Broadway Limited died in 1967

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Montrealer left Washington just after 4pm, New York just before 9, and got to Montreal at 10:45am, more or less. Coming back it left Montreal at 5:20pm and got to Washington just after noon. I rode it one-way from Philadelphia to Montreal in 1994 on a business trip. I was in a Bedroom on a former Union Pacific sleeper. It was a pretty nice ride. You called in a night on the NEC and awakened in northern Vermont: quite a contrast.

The schedule I was quoting is a weirdo, printed on cardstock almost, all buff and black, dated as effective February 2nd, 1977. I use it for a lot of old route info because its more durable than most of the 70s-era system timetables I have. Anyway, sorry, I misread it. The Montrealer, on that schedule, departed WAS at 6:05 PM, PHL @ 8:15 PM, NYC @ 10:10, and arrives Montreal @ 10:45 AM

 

[Karl]

I rode the Pioneer in 1994 or 1995 from Portland to Odgen, bused to Salt Lake City, stayed a couple of days, Vegas for a couple days LA and Disneyland, then CS to Portland. Great trip. The Pioneer ran 3 (or 4) days a week and was combined with the CZ east from Denver. If I remember correctly the CZ west of Salt Lake ran 4 days to Oakland, with the Desert Wind the other 3 days to LA. At this time the Empire Builder was on a 4 (or 3) day week schedule. The talk with Amtrak people was that the Pioneer and DW were to be discontinued to allow equipment to allow the EB and CZ to operate daily on their full respective routes. Amtrak felt this would increase overall ridership (and I think they were right).

If this route could be restored daily it might gain a respectable amount of ridership... Though timing would be an issue keeping costs and milage down might (as i have suggested before) happen by moving the PDX section of the EB to the UP west of Pasco, combining the Pioneer/Wind PDX to Hinkle, connecting with the CZ at Salt Lake, and continue through Las Vegas to Barstow, then combine with the SWC saving 300 - 400 engine miles.

 

[the_traveler]

When I took the Pioneer in 1986, the split was in SLC. At that time all 3 trains traveled together with the CZ from CHI (thru CO) to SLC on the same day (when I took it). In SLC, the train was separated into 3 trains:

1. CZ to EMY (maybe even Oakland at that time)
   
2. Pioneer to PDX/SEA
   
3. Desert Wind to LAS/LAX
   

When I later in the mid 90's took the DW, I forget if the Pioneer was attached, but the separation in SLC was with the CZ and DW at least.