An Analysis Of SDS

[Dan Avon]

Hate to sound ignorant, but what is SDS?

Are not all forms of transportation federally subsidized? Anybody put the pencil to how much the taxpayer forks up for the FAA, the shoe inspectors, the million dollar x ray machines that cost more each than a new locomotive would? And do you think your miserable 18 cents a gallon federal tax on gasoline actually pays for the roads you drive over?

If SDS is a concept like what I think it might be, it should be applied to all forms of government spending, not just the poor Amtrak dining car.

 

[AlanB]

Hate to sound ignorant, but what is SDS?

Dan, I'm a firm believer that no question is too silly, when one does not know the answer. That's how we learn. And it's certainly no indication of ignorance.

Now to answer you question, SDS is Simplified Dining Service. It was part one of Amtrak's grand plan in response to the mandate from Congress to cut the $100+ Million annual loss from food service on Amtrak. As mentioned in some of the earlier posts I believe in this topic, the changes wrought by SDS were the elimination of the Assistant Cook position, as well as one waiter/waitress in the dining car. Additionally, they dumped glass in favor of plastic and basically removed the last few meals that were still being cooked on board in favor of everything being pre-cooked and just reheated in a convection over.

As I noted in my analysis, they basically shot themselves in the foot with this idea, since they also halved the revenue that a diner could take in. And that was just for dinner, I didn't even try to quantify the additional losses from breakfast and lunch.

Yet another part of the equation that I never even talked about, is the fact that part of that $100 M loss each year comes from the cafe cars. I seen one unsubstantiated report that suggested more than half of the loss comes from the cafe cars and of that almost 3/4's comes from cafe cars running on short haul trains & corridor trains, not the cafe cars running on the long distance trains.

Part two of this grand plan is called Diner Lite, which is supposed to combine the dining car and the lounge car into one car. IMHO, a wholly misguided idea, but hey what do I know? :unsure: Beach Grove has to date turned out one Amfleet car in this configuration, but that's it. I've never heard that anymore are even on the production line, but I cannot confirm that. And of course no mention is being made of the millions that will need to be spent if indeed BG were to turn out dozens of these cars.

 

[RailFanLNK]

I just had SDS this weekend on the CZ. It wasn't terrible at all. The food was good. Little disapointed in the paper table cloths, but at least we had silverware. SDS was better than what I was lead to believe. I'm sure there was some grand meals in the Dining Car way before I came along. But this weekend, the food was definately good.

 

[rmgreenesq]

Yet another part of the equation that I never even talked about, is the fact that part of that $100 M loss each year comes from the cafe cars. I seen one unsubstantiated report that suggested more than half of the loss comes from the cafe cars and of that almost 3/4's comes from cafe cars running on short haul trains & corridor trains, not the cafe cars running on the long distance trains.

Not to doubt your source, but I just can't imagine that Amtrak is loosing money with the cafe car. Unless they are buying the food from DoD ($150 hammer?) the markup on the microwave food in the cafe car must be tremendous.

Unless nobody is buying the food, (which could be true in the NEC), I just can't see how they could not make money on this stuff.

Rick

 

[Sam Damon]

The stock answer from many is, "It's the labor costs." However, Amtrak's accounting is opaque, IMO. We also never hear about how much airlines and cruise ships lose on food service, for that matter.

Also kindly note that dining car losses are not Something New, as this 50+ year old document attests.

 

[Dan]

Thanks for your reply, that is kinda what I thought it was. Under the philosophy, the red states with the most mileage and fewest boarding passengers get hit the hardest, with Florida already eliminated, and Texas, Arizona next on the chopping block.

On one hand, food service should be a revenue cash cow, can't imagine any restaurant staying in business that would give away food at a loss. If Amtrak food service is not generating a positive cash flow, something is definitely wrong. Surely it isn't rent, insurance, marketing, advertising, or any of the other things that a normal restaurant has to pay, because there is none of that cost on a train, just the amortization and pulling of a 60 year old rail car, some water tanks that have to be filled and hauled around, and a little bit of locomotive electricity that would be burned anyway. You can't tell me that with the purchasing clout a government corporation has in making mass=purchase of food, that they can't vend and serve it at a cost that generates profit. There aren't that many employees on a dining car, so where is this notorious labor overhead coming from? I see fast food establishments daily that have 15-20 employees working at minimum wage, so it must be volume of food that is lacking rather than quality. The food service model today is like wal mart, buy it cheap, use part time employees, and push as much of the product as you can. But, hotels and cruise ships don't follow that model, they go for the high priced spread, and do just fine, thank you.

Suppose the time has come to start accounting for the food as part of the first class ticket, much as sleeping car is currently billed separately from coach fare on most first class tickets. The sleeping car portion of the first class fare is only worth a portion of the difference between coach, with the food and other services accounting for the rest. Right now the food portion of the trip is getting under-billed.

Have no problem with accounting on this basis, but the net result is always that the rural area (red states) are receiving a disproportionate share of federal subsidy. If you apply this same approach to the highway system, there could be no roads in North Dakota, it isn't financially possible without support from the rest of the country pumping funds into the red states. If Montana or Alaska had to fund their projects without being a "receiving" state from subsidy of the rest of the country, there would be no infrastructure in those states at all. Isn't that what the "United" States is all about anyway, joining together for the common good?

I find it really ironic that a red state Republican controlled congress wants to shoot the red states off the map, and esentially leave the US with only a truncated blue state commuter rail system where everyone brings brown bags and sports drinks on board with them. I wonder if these same red state congresspeople will carry this philosophy forward, and turn back or cut all other forms of federal subsidy to their rural constituents.

 

[DaveKCMO]

we experienced SDS on the SWC from KC to chicago this weekend. our one meal was fine (the burger), and i don't see any problem with the changes. as long as they still offer a place to sit and eat and the food is better than mcdonald's, i'm fine.

 

[VentureForth]

So long as this thread is pinned and so long as no one has posted to it for a few months, I'd like to bring up the cafe cars.

I'm 100% FOR a first class dining experience in the dining car. Get a great meal for a fair price, and the rest of the value is in the company you meet and the experience.

That being said, GET RID OF THE CAFE CAR! That is one over priced position that is infested with many problems.

First, the Diner is open during the most popular dining times. These are the times that the crew eat, too...at least the cafe car attendant (based on last couple of trips on TE, SC, etc). That means that he is eating, in the dining room, while the Cafe is closed, when others who want dinner have to wait for him to finish eating.

He is paid (and tips expected) to microwave food that you successfully remove from a glass-door refridgerator.

His food is expensive. A cheeseburger with a bag of chips is within a dollar or so of the Black Angus burger in the Diner.

On the Pacific Surfliner, I sat in the cafe car for over an hour and not ONE person bought anything (including me - I just like the perspective of flying at high rates of speed close to the ground).

This is a job that could easily be replaced by vending machines and monitored by the coach crew (sorry guys and gals!) Those same folks can also push "PLAY" on the video of the night.

I've lived 18 years in Japan - those who have completely exploited every aspect of the vending machine. You can buy a burger that is heated IN THE MACHINE, thus avoiding external microwaves that are abused by passengers for their own personal use.

Dining car was completely eliminated on the bullet train in Japan somewhere between 5th grade and HS graduation. But that was because the speeds were increased so much that most folks didn't have the time to eat. It's a problem I'd like to have, but with 2,000 - 3,000 miles of contiguous routes across this fruited plain, I pray that we will ALWAYS have diners.

By the way, there was a post somewhere up there where the cost of a 777 was compared to 15 streamlined Russian railroad coaches pulling the same number of passengers. That's a crazy example. Even a Cessna 172 compared to my Suburban costs more, but price paid and the fuel used is for SPEED.

Jim

 

[TransAtlantic]

Yet another part of the equation that I never even talked about, is the fact that part of that $100 M loss each year comes from the cafe cars. I seen one unsubstantiated report that suggested more than half of the loss comes from the cafe cars and of that almost 3/4's comes from cafe cars running on short haul trains & corridor trains, not the cafe cars running on the long distance trains.

Not to doubt your source, but I just can't imagine that Amtrak is loosing money with the cafe car. Unless they are buying the food from DoD ($150 hammer?) the markup on the microwave food in the cafe car must be tremendous.

Unless nobody is buying the food, (which could be true in the NEC), I just can't see how they could not make money on this stuff.

Rick

Catering services (up to but excluding delivery to the consumer) is handled by a private company, not Amtrak...this was a "cost-saving" measure which pretty much everyone agrees ended up costing more, but Amtrak can't back out of, due to a multi-year contract...

 

[AmtrakWPK]

The cafe car on the Silver Service (NY-Miami) trains do a pretty good amount of business. If you want a pepsi or a snack or a deck of cards to play some solitaire, and then if you want someplace to sit at a table big enough to spread out a newspaper, or play some cards, that's the only place you can do that. And if you're only on board for a few hours or are on a lower budget, that's still a lot cheaper than a complete meal in the diner, by a considerable amount. We really enjoy spending time in that cafe car. And if you are always on the west coast, remember that the east coast is not bilevel equipment. Even the times I've been on Sunset Limited (while it was still running east of NOL), I recall that the attendant downstairs in the observation car was doing ok sales-wise as well. And I don't think you can buy a blanket or playing cards in the diner. They weren't on the menu as I recall.............

And, by the by, I would expect to get better gas mileage on the Cessna 172 than on your Suburban for a decent trip length, assuming you are flying at economy cruise at a decent altitude. If mountainous terrain is involved, I can guarantee a fuel savings using the 172, since it also flies direct point to point. Not to mention the savings in meals, motels, etc. (and reduced wear and tear on the nerves)....

 

[Guest]

Why not hire one of the British train operating companies (First Great Western, Virgin, etc.) to run some Amtrak routes. Why not start them out with the Northeast Corridor. Let them see how much more reliable and even more profitable they can make it. If they can't do any better, then maybe the critics will quit complaining about Amtrak.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

I seem to recall some of our British compatriots indicating the privatizing over there to have been something of an unmitigated disaster that they have had to at least partially reverse already.

even more profitable

? It ain't profitable now, so how can it be "even more profitable"?

 

[JAChooChoo]

Why not hire one of the British train operating companies (First Great Western, Virgin, etc.) to run some Amtrak routes. Why not start them out with the Northeast Corridor. Let them see how much more reliable and even more profitable they can make it. If they can't do any better, then maybe the critics will quit complaining about Amtrak.

Great idea, wrong forum. As far as I know, the people on this forum exert no control over Amtrak operation and spending.

You should immediately convince the 535 members of U.S. Senate and House of Representatives that control the purse strings.

 

[Bosworth Johnson]

Three diner lites arrived in New Orleans over the weekend on train 59 (37002,03,04), and one went from New Orleans back to Chicago (37001) on train 58. Supposedly crew training was to begin today.

 

[Bosworth Johnson]

The first CCC (latest Amnomenspeak for diner lite) to run on the City of New Orleans today is 37002. The regular diner and lounge car deadheaded on the rear (bye bye!).

 

[VentureForth]

Any photos of the CCC?

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Here's a question why can't dining on Amtrak be run like a regular restaurant? i.e. It be open regular hours and passengers come and go as they please. When I was on the Crescent in July there were never more than 12 passengers in the dining car and never saw more than 2 employees at a time in the dining car. One was making reservations the other seating and taking orders.

Something else I would like to see is for the Service Attendants be responsible for keeping the train clean en-route. It would lessen the load on cleaning staff at terminals. The restrooms were clean when they left New Orleans but by North Carolina they were in bad shape. It seemed like there were too many employees that weren't doing anything. The conductor seemed overly busy and the attendants were doing hardly anything.

 

[AlanB]

Here's a question why can't dining on Amtrak be run like a regular restaurant? i.e. It be open regular hours and passengers come and go as they please. When I was on the Crescent in July there were never more than 12 passengers in the dining car and never saw more than 2 employees at a time in the dining car. One was making reservations the other seating and taking orders.

Simply because with the huge staffing cut that was made when SDS was implimented, the staff can't handle more than 10 to 12 passengers at one time. Therefore they have to control how many come to the diner at one time by issuing reservations.

And by the way, if the second employee was only making reservations, then he/she was in violation of Amtrak policy. Both workers are required to take orders and serve the passengers.

Something else I would like to see is for the Service Attendants be responsible for keeping the train clean en-route. It would lessen the load on cleaning staff at terminals. The restrooms were clean when they left New Orleans but by North Carolina they were in bad shape. It seemed like there were too many employees that weren't doing anything. The conductor seemed overly busy and the attendants were doing hardly anything.

Actually the attendants are supposed to be cleaning the restrooms while enroute. Some do, and some don't do their job. It is important to know though that even when they are doing their job, with 75 people per car it doesn't take very long for them to get dirty. And the attendants do have more duties beyond just cleaning the restrooms. They are responsible for assigning seats, catering to the elderly and handicapped (in particular bringing them meals), handing out pillows, answering questions, and ensuring that passengers get off at their correct stop.

 

[had8ley]

Here's a question why can't dining on Amtrak be run like a regular restaurant? i.e. It be open regular hours and passengers come and go as they please. When I was on the Crescent in July there were never more than 12 passengers in the dining car and never saw more than 2 employees at a time in the dining car. One was making reservations the other seating and taking orders.

And by the way, if the second employee was only making reservations, then he/she was in violation of Amtrak policy. Both workers are required to take orders and serve the passengers.

Alan;

I can second the lone SA serving the entire car from our trip of two weeks ago. (They used to turn the second SA at Birmingham but now the lone SA doesn't get help until Atlanta; I imagine by then the diner is swamped.) The LSA sat at the table next to the kitchen and talked on his cell phone while he seated everyone at the north end of the diner which was the furthest from the kitchen. Just to get coffee or a straw the lone SA had to walk the entire length of the car; she was very good and worked very hard while her LSA hardly worked.(And I never saw over 5 tables occupied; the LSA kept the door propped open in 30 degree weather and snow outside.) The only thing the LSA lifted was his cell phone. When you talk to Amtrak they'll be quick to tell you that the diner is staffed out of NYP and is not their responsibility. I cut that act out after graduating from high school. Making the entire train NOL crew based would make too much sense and would probably cut off numerous supervisors in NYP.

 

[Guest]

Is there a crew base in Atlanta?

 

[had8ley]

Is there a crew base in Atlanta?

Atlanta is a crew base for operating crafts (engineer, fireman, conductors and A/C's.) They run south to Meridian (with a fireman) and the next northern crew base (and I'm only guessing) is probably Charlotte. (help me with this one Bill.)

The second SA that staffs the diner comes into Atlanta on #19 and lays over during the day and catches #20 back to NYP that same night.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Is there a crew base in Atlanta?

Atlanta is a crew base for operating crafts (engineer, fireman, conductors and A/C's.) They run south to Meridian (with a fireman) and the next northern crew base (and I'm only guessing) is probably Charlotte. (help me with this one Bill.)

The second SA that staffs the diner comes into Atlanta on #19 and lays over during the day and catches #20 back to NYP that same night.

From what I could tell when I took it in July the crew change points are NOL-Meridian-Atlanta-Charlotte-Washington-NYP I might have missed on between Charlotte and WAS but according to the schedule there are no significant layovers to allow for a crew change. I am a little surprised at that the layover at BHM is a few minutes longer than at Meridian where a crew change occurs. Of course this layover could have just stayed on after the Crescent stopped crew changing there and stopped its short lived split move between BHM and Mobile. Of course it might just be for padding since there is a hand thrown switch to get in and out of the station.

 

[haolerider]

Is there a crew base in Atlanta?

Atlanta is a crew base for operating crafts (engineer, fireman, conductors and A/C's.) They run south to Meridian (with a fireman) and the next northern crew base (and I'm only guessing) is probably Charlotte. (help me with this one Bill.)

The second SA that staffs the diner comes into Atlanta on #19 and lays over during the day and catches #20 back to NYP that same night.

From what I could tell when I took it in July the crew change points are NOL-Meridian-Atlanta-Charlotte-Washington-NYP I might have missed on between Charlotte and WAS but according to the schedule there are no significant layovers to allow for a crew change. I am a little surprised at that the layover at BHM is a few minutes longer than at Meridian where a crew change occurs. Of course this layover could have just stayed on after the Crescent stopped crew changing there and stopped its short lived split move between BHM and Mobile. Of course it might just be for padding since there is a hand thrown switch to get in and out of the station.

The crew change city you missed is Charlottesville. Birmingham is a bit longer based on the fact that it is a two level station and baggage has to be moved up on the elevator for the boarding passengers, loaded and then baggage off-loaded for the detraining passengers.

 

[Tony]

Sorry to be late to the table (a pun?), but I read through this tread with great interest. I do have a question.

What exactly is the financial relationship between the sleepers and the dining car? Does the dining car get a fixed cut of the sleeping car accommodation charge?

And more than anything, I wonder what happens when a train runs late (like that never happens )? The dining car has to feed all the sleeping car passengers an additional meal for every 4 hours the train is late. Does the dining car have to eat (another pun?) that cost?

 

[had8ley]

Is there a crew base in Atlanta?

Atlanta is a crew base for operating crafts (engineer, fireman, conductors and A/C's.) They run south to Meridian (with a fireman) and the next northern crew base (and I'm only guessing) is probably Charlotte. (help me with this one Bill.)

The second SA that staffs the diner comes into Atlanta on #19 and lays over during the day and catches #20 back to NYP that same night.

From what I could tell when I took it in July the crew change points are NOL-Meridian-Atlanta-Charlotte-Washington-NYP I might have missed on between Charlotte and WAS but according to the schedule there are no significant layovers to allow for a crew change. I am a little surprised at that the layover at BHM is a few minutes longer than at Meridian where a crew change occurs. Of course this layover could have just stayed on after the Crescent stopped crew changing there and stopped its short lived split move between BHM and Mobile. Of course it might just be for padding since there is a hand thrown switch to get in and out of the station.

The crew change city you missed is Charlottesville. Birmingham is a bit longer based on the fact that it is a two level station and baggage has to be moved up on the elevator for the boarding passengers, loaded and then baggage off-loaded for the detraining passengers.

Some of that extra time might be left over from when the Mobile section broke away from #19 at Birmingham and #20 picked up the Mobile section.