Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL

[crescent-zephyr]

I've heard they're adding a sleeper attendant and a coach attendant, that's probably how they get around the union issues.

Interesting. Where did you hear that?

If they are adding a coach attendant... It would seem they would want to add more responsibilites... Such as... Food and beverage service. Which should have already been part of the coach attendants job.

 

[Ryan]

Turning dining car SAs into Sleeping Car (and coach, if that’s a thing), allows you to have the same amount of staff onboard to do the work, but take those labor dollars off of the F&B line.

Which works out, when the bosses start micromanaging the way Congress has.

 

[jis]

Turning dining car SAs into Sleeping Car (and coach, if that’s a thing), allows you to have the same amount of staff onboard to do the work, but take those labor dollars off of the F&B line.

Which works out, when the bosses start micromanaging the way Congress has.

It also gets around the PRIIA stricture about not causing anyone to lose jobs while getting F&B account to balance.

 

[AcrossTheOcean]

Let me start by stating up front that I do not support the proposed changes, and indeed I would like to see at least some significant changes made to the food that is offered.

Having said that, can you point to a single piece of advertisement that mentions "decent meal"? I can't find such. The contract is just for the travel part, and for Sleepers "complementary meals". You could find what menus were on offer on a given day. But there was nothing that suggested that the same menu would be offered six months hence.

There wasn't anything to suggest that the menu would be drastically changed, either. Not to the "Fresh Choices" options, but not a move to offer only pasta and Chineese food, either.

Unfortunately, the menu change does affect me and my family directly. Last month I booked our very first trip on Amtrak for late August on the CL. I was kind of looking forward to the full breakfast in the dining car experience. I am disappointed, but I am not really angry. The scenery out the window of the BordBistro on the ICE in Germany goes by faster than it does on an LD train in the US.

My main concern is keeping my family from getting hangry, especially if the CL is late getting into WAS. Knowing that both breakfast and lunch would replace the Brunch currently offered on the CL would go a long way to alleviate that. I do suggest that Amtrak take that into consideration. Passengers who are grumpy because they didn't get enough to eat are probably less likely to tip the SCA well, even if it isn't the SCA's fault.

As it is, I have a few months to figure out what to pack to augment breakfast. I am tempted to buy a couple dozen donuts (many more than my family would eat) and pass them around the Sleeping Car Lounge to anyone else who needs a little more breakfast. That should involve less mess than bringing and using a toaster in my roomette and washing dishes in a bathroom.

 

[lordsigma]

"And my thinking is it would be a bigger waste of the diners if Amtrak goes under because of lack of funds and/or because they did not meet the mandate to get rid of F&B losses."

That would be true if that were the only alternative, but I think it's debatable that the present course is one that is likely to "save" Amtrak.

If what several others have posted is accurate, it does not address the largest cost factor (employees/wages), and the inner workings re food revenue aren't good on paper. Add to that the dissatisfaction of passengers with the skimpy food and the wastefulness (more importantly at this point, the appearance of it) of the poor utilization of the new equipment. All the little parts added together just don't seem to be a good solution. Not that I'm an expert on running a railroad, LOL. I'll leave that to you folks.

It just seems there should be a better way, now that Amtrak is getting much better equipment, and I guess that was my underlying point.

Edit (to mostly agree with new posts seen later): Yes, I said that at present it only affects two (correction, one) train. As has been pointed out by others, though, there seems to be a trend to do away with full dining service. Other trains have already been affected. I hope it stops with the two trains discussed in this thread and the remaining trains with full dining cars and service stay that way.

As for "under utilization," I totally agree. That's why I said "kitchens sit unused," "better utilized," and "better used." I understand the cars would still be in the consists, only used as sleeper lounges. The not-inexpensive kitchen sections wouldn't be utilized, though.

I admittedly hate to see the full dining service go on any trains. It's such a nice (and, imo, needed) part of LD train travel. That said, I do still hope a better business solution can be found.

Keep in mind the kitchens may not go totally unused - the cars will be interchangeable with the Meteor and Crescent which, at the moment, still have full Diners and they do rotate the cars around do they not? And I could see where they may try to keep the full diner on the Meteor in the long run with its larger percentage of overnight travellers (Northeast to Florida.) Additionally you never know how they may tweak the program down the road - if enough people say they want hot meals there's a chance they may be re-introduced in a different form and you'd want the kitchen there to have the flexibility down the road if they can figure out a way to do it without breaking the bank (or if the F&B mandate is relaxed.) I doubt you'll ever see the old fasioned diner again with table service, but maybe a fast food style hot meal where you order with the LSA and get your hot meal in the same way as the cold options or pick it up at a counter from the kitchen if you eat in the "sleeper lounge." Obviously the challenge with that would be minimizing the employees that would be needed to allow that hot option.

 

[lordsigma]

An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.

*sarcasm alert*How dare you suggest the coach pax get the nicer car!

 

[lordsigma]

An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.

And use technology to keep the costs down. IE staffed by one employee who would cook/prepare like the cafe with an electronic kiosk for ordering (maybe a mobile app) and paying which would then present you with a number. When its done your order would be on a pickup counter identified by the number you received earlier. And the system could queue the orders in a way so as not to overwhelm the cook. And for the sleeping car passengers you could give them a credit towards a meal here as an option for them. This could also be a way to offer a hot breakfast as well. Key would be just having a couple quality options so that one employee can handle it.

 

[tricia]

I think we're maybe conflating two things in this discussion: "nourishing breakfast" and "hot breakfast." I'd be fine with a cold breakfast that included boiled eggs or a sandwich similar to what I've seen in photos from the Portland leg of the EB. A hot breakfast would be nice, but something beyond starch and sugar is really necessary for a train that reaches its desitnation around 1PM--if it's on time.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I think we're maybe conflating two things in this discussion: "nourishing breakfast" and "hot breakfast." I'd be fine with a cold breakfast that included boiled eggs or a sandwich similar to what I've seen in photos from the Portland leg of the EB. A hot breakfast would be nice, but something beyond starch and sugar is really necessary for a train that reaches its desitnation around 1PM--if it's on time.

Well... this made me think. Maybe the Capitol Limited passengers will now be served lunch? If "Lunch Hours" are included in the time... which they are.. and "The dining car has to close early to clean-up" isn't a valid excuse... hmm.. we may have till wait until June to see.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

tricia, I think you've got it exactly right.

A cold breakfast that contains protein would be fine even with me. In fact, a couple of hard-boiled cold eggs might actually be better than some of the scrambled or omelets I've had on the train, and a slice of ham like in the Portland sandwich would definitely be better than the sausage patties..

 

[seat38a]

An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.

And use technology to keep the costs down. IE staffed by one employee who would cook/prepare like the cafe with an electronic kiosk for ordering (maybe a mobile app) and paying which would then present you with a number. When its done your order would be on a pickup counter identified by the number you received earlier. And the system could queue the orders in a way so as not to overwhelm the cook. And for the sleeping car passengers you could give them a credit towards a meal here as an option for them. This could also be a way to offer a hot breakfast as well. Key would be just having a couple quality options so that one employee can handle it.

Right, and how long has Amtrak been trying to implement that POS system.

 

[niemi24s]

Anybody have any idea how much of a increase in sleeper upcharges would be needed to reduce F&B losses to zero?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Anybody have any idea how much of a increase in sleeper upcharges would be needed to reduce F&B losses to zero?

I'm sure it varies from train to train but there should be other forms of revenue from the dining car. The boxed hot dinner for coach passengers is a great example. There should be a fixed meal option (continental breakfast, deluxe hot or cold sandwich, hot dinner) for each meal period offered to coach passengers at their seat.

Premium beverages need to be offered at each meal perioid, this includes premium coffees (espresso etc.) and bloody Mary's and mimosas at breakfast, and the full bar menu needs to be heavily advertised for lunch and dinner.

On extended trips (Coast Starlight, empire builder, zephyr, chief) - the dining car hosts a wine and cheese tasting that may be purchased by all passengers on full days. This should include a "hard sell" for bottles of wines to enjoy at dinner, etc. (The dining car staff hosted the wine tasting on the empire builder, so this can be done).

If seating in the dining car for meal periods is an issue on a route due to capacity of train, or staff limitations, all sleeping car passengers should be given the option to dine in their room. This will allow more room in the diner for coach passengers, and will allow for more leisure time in the diner, which will increase alcahol sales.

 

[daybeers]

(I know this is a little bit off topic, so mods, please move as you see fit.)

This may be a silly question, but I'm curious to know what opinions others have regarding the F&B mandate. Has it been positive or negative for Amtrak? A little of both? I wasn't following train news nearly as closely when PRRIA was enacted, so I don't know much about it.

 

[lordsigma]

An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.

And use technology to keep the costs down. IE staffed by one employee who would cook/prepare like the cafe with an electronic kiosk for ordering (maybe a mobile app) and paying which would then present you with a number. When its done your order would be on a pickup counter identified by the number you received earlier. And the system could queue the orders in a way so as not to overwhelm the cook. And for the sleeping car passengers you could give them a credit towards a meal here as an option for them. This could also be a way to offer a hot breakfast as well. Key would be just having a couple quality options so that one employee can handle it.

Right, and how long has Amtrak been trying to implement that POS system.

Find some silicon valley company to design the app.

 

[lordsigma]

An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.

*sarcasm alert*How dare you suggest the coach pax get the nicer car!

You could set it up in a way so that the sleeping car passengers still get the viewliner seating. Put the old cafe directly adjacent to the viewliner diner. On the side of the kitchen facing the vestibule to the old cafe you could have the ordering/pickup area. Essentially my thought is just to use the viewliner II better equipped food prep area in place of the cafe prep area to provide a little more equipment and higher quality options. Viewliner seating could still be sleeper lounge. Again just an idea I randomly thought of - maybe not a good one, but I just figured the amfleet cafes are getting old and the new VII diners have a perfectly functional kitchen thats not going to be used for traditional dining car service- might as well use it for something. Then when you replace the cafes can make it all seating for coach with no kitchen.

 

[bretton88]

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx

Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.

 

[CraigDK]

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx

Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.

Thanks for sharing this. I think Frailey's take on this is a reasoned one.

 

[Bob Dylan]

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx

Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.

Thanks for sharing this. I think Frailey's take on this is a reasoned one.

Ditto!

 

[seat38a]

An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.

And use technology to keep the costs down. IE staffed by one employee who would cook/prepare like the cafe with an electronic kiosk for ordering (maybe a mobile app) and paying which would then present you with a number. When its done your order would be on a pickup counter identified by the number you received earlier. And the system could queue the orders in a way so as not to overwhelm the cook. And for the sleeping car passengers you could give them a credit towards a meal here as an option for them. This could also be a way to offer a hot breakfast as well. Key would be just having a couple quality options so that one employee can handle it.

Right, and how long has Amtrak been trying to implement that POS system.

Find some silicon valley company to design the app.

All the LSA needs is a iPhone with a CC reader and some basic software. The SAME iPhone's the conductors already use to scan tickets. But for whatever reason, Amtrak thinks it needs a custom POS system. Even my local Starbucks does all their inventory with an iPhone with a scanner attachment. The cafe car, maybe an iPad.

On the Surfliner which does have a POS system. If the system goes down, the LSA has to handwrite all of the inventory and then do math using a calculator. Let me tell you it does not take a genius app developer to write an app that can scan the barcode of the product add up all the prices and finish the transaction. Its like healthcare.gov version 1. Government can't to the simplest things right.

 

[lordsigma]

Just booked auto train for October - will be interesting to see if anything changes by then. I would think it would be the last one to change (if ever) due to it being 100% overnighters. Kind of amazing how its financial performance compares with other trains even with its THREE diners.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx

Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.

Fred starts his retort by lumping reasonable concerns with reactionary comments.

That's not the sort of tactic you expect from someone being reasonable and honest.

Fred's main premise is that people should stop overreacting because...

1. Amtrak food is already poor quality so there's not much to be lost or worry about

2. Congress mandated reductions in spending long before Anderson was hired

I don't disagree with either point but I fail to see how any of this nullifies legitimate concerns that food quality and service is falling while prices are remaining the same or increasing. At least in the case of the Silver Star the ticket price was reduced to account for the lack of food and the daily Meteor remained full service for those who wanted it. That change wasn't what everyone wanted, but most people could still find what they needed. That's a harder case to make with Anderson's initiative.

Fred proposes that a much better solution is as simple as...

1. No cash sales allowed on board

2. Hot Acela style meals for sleeper passengers

Which he claims will cost/save roughly the same amount of time and money as serving cold box meals.

It's unclear to me how Fred determined Acela first class meals would cost the same as cold box meals or what exactly he thinks passengers will be ordering with their credit cards. Neither Anderson's brown bag lunch setup or Fred's at-seat airline style reheated food tray is likely to entice me to splurge on extras. Nor would I need to if Amtrak was actually deploying Acela style first class meal service where the extras are included. Does Fred consider any of this in his cost estimates or in his presumption of big theft savings? Hard saying not knowing.

Its like healthcare.gov version 1. Government can't to the simplest things right.

If only the government had stayed out of the passenger train business and left everything to the private sector we'd be so much better off now.

 

[JRR]

I note this summer that the Cardinal from DC to Chicago seems to be sold out on a number of dates in July (I didn’t check every date), but the CL to Chicago from DC seems to have roomette and bedrooms at reasonable ( I’m not sure low bucket but seem lower than I’ve seen before).

Is this possibly a sign that people are avoiding the CL?

 

[IndyLions]

No - just an indication that the Cardinal is a 3 day a week train and the CL is a daily. Unless the train is your vacation (like many of us but not most people) very few who have a choice will opt for the longer ride. For most who ride the Cardinal between Charlottesville and Indy - they have no other train choice.