Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL

[Anderson]

As far as I know, Amtrak carries in the realm of 32 million passengers per year, around 4.7 million are long distance. Of that, Star has been dinerless for quit a while, at 377k + riders. The new program impacts trains that carry approximately 620k additional passengers. CONO and Card are another 368k with limited service. A very large part of the LD ridership are coach passengers who may or may not use the diner at all. If a few people choose not to ride, but a greater number choose to, or if ridership stays the same or similar, but losses are lower, nobody will care that a few of us are not happy about the change.

A large portion of the Star's ridership is short-haul. MIA-TPA, TPA-ORL-JAX, and RGH-RVR-WAS-NYP are much of that ridership, with through ridership being much thinner.

 

[frequentflyer]

It is so sad to think that if the new meals are not reversed, people who are just now beginning to ride Amtrak will never miss it. They won't know what it was like to travel by train in the past. They won't know about the steak dinners served on a real tablecloths. They'll happily pack extra travel food or extra money for the cafe. They will be content to ride from here to there and nothing more.

Ding,ding,ding..........Someone gets it. The uproar when airlines removed meals were louder and got more attention. The airilnes went through with the removal anyway and now when we board an airline think nothing of not getting a meal.

I can see some airline think here by Anderson, what Everydaymatters posted will be the new reality.

 

[JRR]

I just got my notice for my late July. With respect to the Star, I only ride it from DFB to Tampa. Our long trips we go on the Meteor (I’m on it now)!

 

[cpotisch]

I just got my notice for my late July. With respect to the Star, I only ride it from DFB to Tampa. Our long trips we go on the Meteor (I’m on it now)!

What diner have you got?

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

As far as I know, Amtrak carries in the realm of 32 million passengers per year, around 4.7 million are long distance. Of that, Star has been dinerless for quit a while, at 377k + riders. The new program impacts trains that carry approximately 620k additional passengers. CONO and Card are another 368k with limited service. A very large part of the LD ridership are coach passengers who may or may not use the diner at all. If a few people choose not to ride, but a greater number choose to, or if ridership stays the same or similar, but losses are lower, nobody will care that a few of us are not happy about the change.

A large portion of the Star's ridership is short-haul. MIA-TPA, TPA-ORL-JAX, and RGH-RVR-WAS-NYP are much of that ridership, with through ridership being much thinner.

Also, for most LD trains approx 80%-90% of passengers ride coach. Even if they wanted to eat in the diner car, they have to pay for those meals and it is quite a sticker shock to see $25 for an Amtrak steak (and that's assuming a coach passenger can even get a dinner reservation which may not be the case on some LD trains although breakfast is most likely easy to get and prices are usually cheaper). Most of the coach passengers I'm guessing aren't buying Amtrak steaks or eating in the diner car in general. Someone's eating in the cafe car.

Yes it is a LD trip and of course you expect to be fed. The issue is it seems like you expect steak but the problem is for you to get steak taxpayers have to fund that steak. In theory it isn't fair when "regular food" should be adequate to keep you fed on your trip and cost less for taxpayers.

 

[Chey]

I haven't gotten my email but I'm not riding the CL until September, that must be why.

I did, however, get an a new ticket for the CONO in September. The only change I could see is that it arrives in CHI 20 minutes later. There was another post about that change but the thread's locked. It takes effect in May and lasts through at least September, maybe longer. The online schedule still shows the earlier arrival time so I guess it's long-term but not permanent?

 

[JRR]

I just got my notice for my late July. With respect to the Star, I only ride it from DFB to Tampa. Our long trips we go on the Meteor (I’m on it now)!

What diner have you got?

Montgomery. Had the land and sea for dinner. Steak cooked medium rare as ordered and with bernaise sauce was quite good. The crab, scallops and shrimp cake while an odd combination was ok. Lots of old bay seasoning.

Enjoyed visiting with an engineer and his elderly mother.

Will enjoy the experience while we can!

 

[AcrossTheOcean]

I got my notice of the menu changes yesterday morning, too.

Random question. If a child is booked in a sleeper, does the accompanying adult get the child's free alcoholic beverage?

 

[caravanman]

If the child is under 21 and American, the adult gets the booze. If the child is over age 7 and French, the kid gets the red wine...

Certainly bring some extra snacks too, the on board prices in the cafe cars are twice or three times what you would pay at a regular store near the station...

Ed.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I got my notice of the menu changes yesterday morning, too.

Random question. If a child is booked in a sleeper, does the accompanying adult get the child's free alcoholic beverage?

Hey, don’t give these guys & gals ideas. They’ll start borrowing their nieces, nephews, grandkids just to get an extra free alcoholic drink. [emoji3]

 

[Lonestar648]

I always carry a few snacks in my backpack. The cafe isn't open during the early morning hours, so if I get a snack urge or need gto take a pain med I have something. One of my favorites are the peanut butter/honey crackers, compact and light, so easy to carry. I generally do not buy anything at the cafe unless I have a young granddaughter, then it is a treat for her to buy something on the train, eat in the lounge in addition to the Dining Car.

 

[Skyline]

Next trip, I'm thinking of trying this...

https://heatermeals.com/how-self-heating-works/

I know MREs have a bad rep from those forced to eat them in the military. But in the backpacking market newer food choices and technology have caused some to take another look at offerings which do not require flame. When I'm out backpacking, I try to go lighter than this because I have to carry everything I need for multiple days on my back--and these are not as light as what I typically carry plus I use a flame to heat mine. But on a two-day or shorter train journey? Hmmmm...

More on this topic:

https://science.howstuffworks.com/mre4.htm

If you wanted to prepare your own meals at home and dehydrate them (I've done this many times for backpacking with great results), then you could easily rehydrate them on a train (or trail), and use this standalone flameless heater to cook:

https://www.magnesium-elektron.com/markets/defense/flameless-heaters-self-heating-meals-beverages/

Thinking very outside the box here, I know. Probably more relevant for sleeping car pax than coach. I don't see Amtrak embracing this in the proposed sleeper lounges or trackside.

 

[JRR]

for what it is worth:

On the Meteor this morning, I was able to talk to the Montgomery dining car staff including the chef.

First of all, the chef insisted that all the food including scrambled eggs, pancakes and etc were cooked to order on the grill. He denied using sous vide for anything.

We then had an interesting discussion of the new menu on the CL and LSL. They all agreed that it is their opinion that the new menu will be put in place everywhere including the Meteor and the LD trains.

 

[cpotisch]

We then had an interesting discussion of the new menu on the CL and LSL. They all agreed that it is their opinion that the new menu will be put in place everywhere including the Meteor and the LD trains.

That is the scariest thing I've heard all week. Seriously. I've gotta say though that it seems difficult to put this in place on the multi-night routes. Taking the TE/Sunset (which I know might not last much longer anyway), people would be living off cold food and a very limited menu for days on end. It just becomes a much more difficult sell for anyone who is physically capable of taking an alternate form of transit. I guess we'll say, but if that happens, it might be the last straw for many LD pax.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Thanks for the report. Im sure that's the plan, but it was also the plan to convert most (maybe all?) dining cars to CCC cars... How long did the CCC concept last after being tested? Like 6 months? Then it went back to standard menu. I'm not saying the standard menu will come back, I am just saying that even advertised seemingly set in stone plans do change.

 

[TiBike]

We don't know what the new food is going to be, since they've haven't rolled it out yet. But based on the description, it sounds better to me than what's served now.

It also sounds like a likely upgrade for coach passengers. These are meals that can be sold in the cafe, where the food on long distance trains is even worse than what's in the diner. Amtrak has an incentive to sell as many boxed meals as possible. The boilerplate about maybe not always being available for all passengers is a disclaimer, not a business plan. They don't want to overstock, but with a little experience (which they might already have, via the Empire Builder) they can make reasonably accurate predictions.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new menu on the Starlight and Zephyr. Although not as much as I'm looking forward to seeing them run on time. I know, a long wait.

 

[Anderson]

So, we had a NARP/RPA Board conference call this week. From what we can tell:
(1) This is a pilot program. Amtrak likely intends to pilot a few other ideas before settling on what to actually do long-term.
(2) Amtrak had a similar "bright idea" on the Acelas some time back. It lasted all of two weeks.

 

[Anderson]

We don't know what the new food is going to be, since they've haven't rolled it out yet. But based on the description, it sounds better to me than what's served now.

It also sounds like a likely upgrade for coach passengers. These are meals that can be sold in the cafe, where the food on long distance trains is even worse than what's in the diner. Amtrak has an incentive to sell as many boxed meals as possible. The boilerplate about maybe not always being available for all passengers is a disclaimer, not a business plan. They don't want to overstock, but with a little experience (which they might already have, via the Empire Builder) they can make reasonably accurate predictions.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new menu on the Starlight and Zephyr. Although not as much as I'm looking forward to seeing them run on time. I know, a long wait.

Amtrak currently has an incentive to sell as much as they can in the diner. Remember, at least on the basis of space availability, Amtrak is supposed to invite coach pax to eat in the dining car. However, management has been repeatedly told (via studies and reports) that on the LD trains, 30-40% of diner business is from coach passengers. They never cease to seem to be surprised or confused by this. In this context, I cannot help but suspect that Amtrak will chronically understock the meals.

 

[Bob Dylan]

If and when the "New and Improved" Meal Service spreads to ALLof the LD Trains it will be a work in progress as new things are tried, altered,eliminated or added to.

Hopefully Anderson and his Executive Team have lots of better ideas and plans including adding HOT Airline/Acela type meals for LD Trains, as well as Healthier Cafe Menu items. ( and replacing Pepsi with Coke would be a Winner in my book!)

Well see how this shakes out on the LSL and Cap, but @ a Minimum I expect the CONO ( CCC)and Cardinal ( VLII)to go to this concept.

Having this on the Western LD Trains is a terrible idea as has been said!

Wouldnt hurt to try it on the Starvation either! YMMV

 

[TiBike]

There's no reason to think Amtrak will deliberately understock anything. There are fewer barriers and perceived costs to buying a boxed meal in the cafe than a sit down meal in the diner, even if staff makes you welcome. Which they often don't, starting with the bossy announcements about making reservations that sound more like a threat than an invitation.

I'm reasonably familiar with how the diners work, but even so I can't predict how much I'm going to pay, how long I'm going to wait and what my meal will actually look like. In the cafe, I can instantly see what I'm getting and how much it'll cost. And I don't have make a reservation – I can eat whenever I want.

Bring it on.

Amtrak currently has an incentive to sell as much as they can in the diner. Remember, at least on the basis of space availability, Amtrak is supposed to invite coach pax to eat in the dining car. However, management has been repeatedly told (via studies and reports) that on the LD trains, 30-40% of diner business is from coach passengers. They never cease to seem to be surprised or confused by this. In this context, I cannot help but suspect that Amtrak will chronically understock the meals.

 

[keelhauled]

That is the scariest thing I've heard all week. Seriously. I've gotta say though that it seems difficult to put this in place on the multi-night routes. Taking the TE/Sunset (which I know might not last much longer anyway), people would be living off cold food and a very limited menu for days on end. It just becomes a much more difficult sell for anyone who is physically capable of taking an alternate form of transit. I guess we'll say, but if that happens, it might be the last straw for many LD pax.

I'm not sure. Using the Texas Eagle as an example, with NARP's data sheet as reference, six of the top ten city pairs for ridership are less than 300 miles. For the vast majority of riders I can't imagine menu changes will have any effect. If you sort by revenue, which skews it towards long distance riders, I'm still not sure that it will trigger a mass exodus. If you use the Silver Star as an (even more drastic) example, a complete removal of dining car service on a 31 hour schedule did not lead to a plunge in ridership. Going back to the Eagle, which has a 32 hour schedule, only one of the top ten city pairs by revenue is longer than that. Obviously it's not an exact comparison because the Meteor overlaps to a large extent with the Star, but the fact that the former did not see a ridership jump after the latter lost the diner--in fact both declined in 2016 and the Star posted a greater increase last year--makes me think that the diner is not the make or break factor many people here portray it as.

 

[cpotisch]

That is the scariest thing I've heard all week. Seriously. I've gotta say though that it seems difficult to put this in place on the multi-night routes. Taking the TE/Sunset (which I know might not last much longer anyway), people would be living off cold food and a very limited menu for days on end. It just becomes a much more difficult sell for anyone who is physically capable of taking an alternate form of transit. I guess we'll say, but if that happens, it might be the last straw for many LD pax.

I'm not sure. Using the Texas Eagle as an example, with NARP's data sheet as reference, six of the top ten city pairs for ridership are less than 300 miles. For the vast majority of riders I can't imagine menu changes will have any effect. If you sort by revenue, which skews it towards long distance riders, I'm still not sure that it will trigger a mass exodus. If you use the Silver Star as an (even more drastic) example, a complete removal of dining car service on a 31 hour schedule did not lead to a plunge in ridership. Going back to the Eagle, which has a 32 hour schedule, only one of the top ten city pairs by revenue is longer than that. Obviously it's not an exact comparison because the Meteor overlaps to a large extent with the Star, but the fact that the former did not see a ridership jump after the latter lost the diner--in fact both declined in 2016 and the Star posted a greater increase last year--makes me think that the diner is not the make or break factor many people here portray it as.

I’m talking about the 61-65 hour TE/Sunset through train. That ride is three nights, so for anyone taking the train the trip much of the way, the new food service might be a big deal. And the same thing applies to other two night trains. The CZ is one of the flagship LD routes, and has very high ticket prices. Serving cold bagels and wraps for a three day, two night journey is really pushing it for those passengers.

 

[keelhauled]

I’m talking about the 61-65 hour TE/Sunset through train. That ride is three nights, so for anyone taking the train the trip much of the way, the new food service might be a big deal. And the same thing applies to other two night trains. The CZ is one of the flagship LD routes, and has very high ticket prices. Serving cold bagels and wraps for a three day, two night journey is really pushing it for those passengers.

Those passengers make up some subset of the 2.4% of Eagle passengers that travel more than 2000 miles. Making business decisions based on the desires of less than 2.4% of customers is lunacy.

 

[JRR]

So, we had a NARP/RPA Board conference call this week. From what we can tell:

(1) This is a pilot program. Amtrak likely intends to pilot a few other ideas before settling on what to actually do long-term.

(2) Amtrak had a similar "bright idea" on the Acelas some time back. It lasted all of two weeks.

The staff referred to it as a “pilot “ program and went on to opine that in their experience, “pilot” programs are how these things are initiated.

Remember, this is just dining car staff speculating.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

That is the scariest thing I've heard all week. Seriously. I've gotta say though that it seems difficult to put this in place on the multi-night routes. Taking the TE/Sunset (which I know might not last much longer anyway), people would be living off cold food and a very limited menu for days on end. It just becomes a much more difficult sell for anyone who is physically capable of taking an alternate form of transit. I guess we'll say, but if that happens, it might be the last straw for many LD pax.

I'm not sure. Using the Texas Eagle as an example, with NARP's data sheet as reference, six of the top ten city pairs for ridership are less than 300 miles. For the vast majority of riders I can't imagine menu changes will have any effect. If you sort by revenue, which skews it towards long distance riders, I'm still not sure that it will trigger a mass exodus. If you use the Silver Star as an (even more drastic) example, a complete removal of dining car service on a 31 hour schedule did not lead to a plunge in ridership. Going back to the Eagle, which has a 32 hour schedule, only one of the top ten city pairs by revenue is longer than that. Obviously it's not an exact comparison because the Meteor overlaps to a large extent with the Star, but the fact that the former did not see a ridership jump after the latter lost the diner--in fact both declined in 2016 and the Star posted a greater increase last year--makes me think that the diner is not the make or break factor many people here portray it as.

I’m talking about the 61-65 hour TE/Sunset through train. That ride is three nights, so for anyone taking the train the trip much of the way, the new food service might be a big deal. And the same thing applies to other two night trains. The CZ is one of the flagship LD routes, and has very high ticket prices. Serving cold bagels and wraps for a three day, two night journey is really pushing it for those passengers.

CHI-LAX is so irrelevant on the TE that it's not even on the top ten revenue pairs on that route. CHI-Tucson barely checks in at #10 and that trip is almost a half day less than Los Angeles and has no other quicker option available. CHI-Tucson is slightly longer than CHI-EMY on the CZ.

Even the SWC and CZ are still only approximately 20% sleeper passengers. The stat listed was 30%-40% of the diner's passengers are coach passengers but it's unknown (at least from that statistic) what % of coach passengers eat in the diner. I'd imagine half of even CZ/SWC passengers don't even eat in the diner car anyway and could care less if it went away.