Amtrak's Lack of Vision

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Anderson

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I do believe there has been a leadership failure at Amtrak in not promoting a medium-term plan for expanding service or explaining what could be done with certain equipment orders. From what I can tell, Amtrak has mostly stayed back and let states take the lead rather than working to promote either expanding LD service (not a state function) or corridor service (a more complicated animal, since some corridors are destined to be multi-state tangles in need of coordination). The Viewliner IIs are an exception to this, but even then there's no clear talk about "If we get X, we can do this with it. If we get Y, we can do this other thing with it."

For example, there have been serious examinations of restoring the North Coast Hiawatha, Desert Wind, and Pioneer over the last five years. There have also been visions proposed for the NEC, many of which could swallow decades of HSR funding. Why has there been no serious proposal for expanding the LD system pushed? Where is an attempt to take the seriously-proposed regional systems, add a few new LD links or "daily doubles", and produce a "National Network Vision 2030" in the vein of similar NEC documents. While the political environment in a number of places isn't terribly friendly to Amtrak, there's also the tendency of Amtrak service to beget local support and politicians to suddenly mellow when they have "their train" to protect.

I do recognize the costs of adding new services:

-LD services would need $50-100m each in the East (for a Viewliner/Amfleet set), and $100-150m out West (for a Superliner set, or arguably for a longer single-level set to match capacity). You'd also need capacity improvements and whatnot that the host railroads would negotiate for, likely bringing your total to $300-600m in the East or $500-1,000m out west.

-Corridor services seem likely to run around $100-200m per round trip, all expenses included, depending on the length of the route and existing congestion, assuming you're not going for massive speed upgrades (i.e. anything over 79-90 MPH).

Of course, nothing is going to happen if nobody puts a "vision thing" out there in terms the public can comprehend. NARP's proposed system map doesn't count for this. On the other hand, Amtrak is busy proposing tens of billions in upgrades for the NEC beyond needed fixes (i.e. Gateway, bridge replacements, and some speed upgrades)...and frankly, supporting it with numbers that don't seem to reflect reality (witness my earlier discussions on ridership trends and the tendency of Amtrak to dump all sorts of ridership onto the Acelas or their successors while overlooking the Regionals).

Even if it might take 10 or 20 years to make such a vision a reality, you can't sell an expanded network if you never talk about expanding the network. Amtrak isn't going to grow if they only promote what has broad support...but if they took the numerous of studies done over the last ten years or so and worked to develop a competent passenger rail expansion program with it, you'd probably have something that could sell in a lot more places.
 
I totally agree with you! But remember, "Nobody rides trains anymore!" :D

If a new highway or airport is proposed, watch all the NIMBY's come out of the woodwork. Then after it's built, the answer is "Why did it take so long?" Or "We need this, don't take it away!". But if a new train route is proposed, the NIMBY's come out - and stay out! "We don't subsidize highways or air travel, so why subsidize Amtrak?" Yet they don't think any taxpayer money (aka subsidies) go to DOT, FAA, ATC, police, their state/city/town, etc... Only Amtrak is subsidized!
 
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For example, there have been serious examinations of restoring the North Coast Hiawatha, Desert Wind, and Pioneer over the last five years. There have also been visions proposed for the NEC, many of which could swallow decades of HSR funding. Why has there been no serious proposal for expanding the LD system pushed?
Why don't you consider the NCH, DW and Pioneer expanding the LD system?

While I think such a plan would be great, there's a decent counterpoint that they're not wasting resources on things that have little chance of coming to pass and focusing on things that they can accomplish. With bleak prospects for more money from the feds, focusing on the states sounds like a good move for a new source of funds.
 
There were studies done on the NCH, Pioneer and DW. The studies estimated the cost of such trains. Now all it takes is a Congressional appropriation to run these trains. Outside of that, how will Amtrak fund such operations? Corridor trains are on the increase because states want them. Amtrak couldn't get Kansas, Colorado and New Mexico to put up money to fund an existing LD train (Southwest Chief). Amtrak can't run any train that isn't paid for by somebody.
 
Not to be a naysayer, but for the DW except for Calienté (sp?) all other stops can be reached from other trains. Even (to a certain extent) LV. For the Pioneer, most stops are served by Thruway buses. And the NCH would have the same endpoints as the EB. If it did happen, I doubt they would run both the EB and NCH daily (duplicating the same tracks in every state except Montana).

I for one would rather see things like a route from Chicago to Florida or a north-south route to the west of Chicago. And I'd hope for a resumption of the "temporarily suspended" SL-East. (But I see that is not even on the SL schedule any longer. Did they officially cancel it?) A long shot, but I would like to see a mid cross country route like WAS-STL-KCY-DEN.
 
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What's missing on the Amtrak LD grid is Chicago-Florida through Atlanta. Restoring the Sunset east, Texas to Colorado and the Pioneer route using the UP across Wyoming. Perhaps the Desert Wind. Four of these five routes had service under Amtrak previously.

What's missing in corridor service is the Texas Triangle, DFW-Houston-SAS-DFW.

Lots of potential on all these routes. Where is the vision? Where is the long range plan?
 
Traveler, could a future North Coast Hiawatha just travel from Fargo to Sandpoint, meeting with the EB to transfer passengers at each end? Given the EB's issues with being late, that could be a problem, but complementing the 46 hour EB trip with a southern service across North Dakota and Montana would be interesting, though both states would have to step up to fund its restoration. The old NCH was an hour slower getting to Sandpoint, so I am not sure if the two trains would actually work as a pair. I think the old EB and the NCH left Fargo at 8:15 pm, but the EB got to Sandpoint at 9:26 pm the next day and the NCH got there at 10:36 pm. Not sure how that worked out, or how it could be made to work now. The weird thing is that the NCH got into Sandpoint an hour later than the EB but got to Seattle a half hour earlier by a different route. So the EB takes a slower route to Seattle? Is that due to bigger cities on the EB route, and perhaps higher passenger counts?

Could a smaller NCH stay close to profitable if it was fast enough to normally beat the EB between Fargo and Sandpoint, both ways? Just 2 sleepers, 3 coaches, a SSL and a diner, maybe?
 
Wasn't UP's asking price of a single one-time schedule change of an existing route something like $750 Million? If that's even remotely true then I don't see how we could start a brand new LD route, presumably requiring several train sets operating on a route that crosses multiple railroads and needs a dozen or more new ADA compliant stations, for anything less than a billion dollars. Maybe short state level routes are the only thing practical in an era where actual federal budgets are a thing of the past. Whatever your leanings I think it's pretty clear that we're wrapping up one of the most pro-Amtrak administrations this country has ever seen, and yet so far the overall impact has been minimal at best. Whoever comes next is unlikely to be more pro-rail than the current administration, and even if they were they would remain stymied by a congress that steadfastly refuses to compromise on virtually anything of relevance. I'm not sure if this outcome was inevitable or not, but I honestly cannot envision a method for fixing it at this point.
 
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I wonder if I would attribute such to the leadership at Amtrak, or, simply the congressional "oversight." If Amtrak was a "normal" corporation, then they could draw up plans, "do the numbers," and then if justified, give the plan a try. But with the politics/political correctness in The House, where anything done by the government is evil, or worse, a form of socialism... why should the leadership at Amtrak waste their time trying to move forward/expand a system [look what happened in Indiana this year]. Maybe when the political environment becomes more civilized/rational (or maybe when the echo machine finally collapses under its own stupidity), then they might bother looking toward an expanded future. Personally, given what I see being done by Amtrak, but given the constrained environment they have to work/live within: my hat's off to them. I suspect those that run Amtrak if given a "normal" corporation to run, would do a damn fine jobs of it.
 
For example, there have been serious examinations of restoring the North Coast Hiawatha, Desert Wind, and Pioneer over the last five years. There have also been visions proposed for the NEC, many of which could swallow decades of HSR funding. Why has there been no serious proposal for expanding the LD system pushed?
Why don't you consider the NCH, DW and Pioneer expanding the LD system?

While I think such a plan would be great, there's a decent counterpoint that they're not wasting resources on things that have little chance of coming to pass and focusing on things that they can accomplish. With bleak prospects for more money from the feds, focusing on the states sounds like a good move for a new source of funds.
I consider those three to be expanding the system. The problem, in a sense, is that from what I can tell Amtrak basically filed a report in a filing cabinet and left it at that. If they'd talked to NARP and actually followed up on those studies with a push in the Western states rather than doing the studies and then dropping them, that would be a serious effort.

The other issue is that while I agree that, at the moment, the prospect for funds from the federal government aren't great, it's not like Amtrak even seriously raised the possibility back in 2009/10 when there was money flying around. Moreover, even accepting a hostile environment at the moment, it's not like doing nothing because the environment is bad is going to somehow make the environment better going forward. Giving elected officials in those areas something they can latch onto, on the other hand, is...especially when you look at the transit initiatives in progress in places like SLC, Denver, Phoenix, and Tucson. I'll grant that we're never going to have John McCain onboard, but it's not like he's the only elected official in Arizona with a voice. It's really hard, however, to get folks to care when they see nothing to gain by supporting you.

Devil's Advocate: If you're referring to the Sunset Limited situation, my understanding is that the story there is far more complicated than just a "bad number".
 
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As I understand form other postings, the government runs Amtrak because no one else wanted to do it? I don't understand that at all.

I have just discovered train travel in the last 5 years mainly because I never traveled much and never lived close to a station. I grew up in Philly and used local trains all the time but it never occurred to me to take a LD train. Even with the reading terminal downtown. Just never did. Now Iive rural north central PA and Rochester is a 2 hour ride, but that is the closest station to get a train east or west or south.

Now I ride trains more often for leisure and to see relatives across the country. I see crowded trains and happy people. If i can take a train somewhere, then I will go. Only in an emergency will I fly again. Or overseas of course. And I do realize that being retired makes a difference. I am able to take 3 days to get to Santa Fe. My children coming east to visit cannot.

So I agree with the posters who say Amtrak needs a plan. Needs advertising, make people WANT to ride and NOT fly. that should be the commercial. Hassle free, comfortable, family oriented travel. I have reading that it costs MORE money to get seats together on planes and adjoining rooms in a hotel. When have I ever seen a commercial for Amtrak? I think it would really work.

If the states were to see the potential for profit then they might think seriously about helping out. But without a plan, vision and a push, they won't spend a dime.

And I would love to see a route form Montana or Wyoming south through the most gorgeous part of our country.We have been going west in the north and renting a car south and vice versa.. Think of all the tourist money to towns along those routes.

.
 
Not to be a naysayer, but for the DW except for Calienté (sp?) all other stops can be reached from other trains. Even (to a certain extent) LV. For the Pioneer, most stops are served by Thruway buses. And the NCH would have the same endpoints as the EB. If it did happen, I doubt they would run both the EB and NCH daily (duplicating the same tracks in every state except Montana).

I for one would rather see things like a route from Chicago to Florida or a north-south route to the west of Chicago. And I'd hope for a resumption of the "temporarily suspended" SL-East. (But I see that is not even on the SL schedule any longer. Did they officially cancel it?) A long shot, but I would like to see a mid cross country route like WAS-STL-KCY-DEN.
Not disagreeing on the desirability of a Chicago-Atlanta-Florida route, or St. Paul-Kansas City-Texas route, Sunset East, etc.

However, NCH would hardly be duplicating the same tracks as the EB except for Montana. It would operate on a different route essentially the entire distance west of Fargo, ND (assuming, of course, that it operated over Stampede Pass, rather than Stevens Pass). So, it would provide a second frequency CHI-MKE-MSP-FAR, where (at least CHI-MKE-MSP) such a train is currently being studied and would operate over a different route, serving different markets, west of there.
 
Traveler, could a future North Coast Hiawatha just travel from Fargo to Sandpoint, meeting with the EB to transfer passengers at each end? Given the EB's issues with being late, that could be a problem, but complementing the 46 hour EB trip with a southern service across North Dakota and Montana would be interesting, though both states would have to step up to fund its restoration. The old NCH was an hour slower getting to Sandpoint, so I am not sure if the two trains would actually work as a pair. I think the old EB and the NCH left Fargo at 8:15 pm, but the EB got to Sandpoint at 9:26 pm the next day and the NCH got there at 10:36 pm. Not sure how that worked out, or how it could be made to work now. The weird thing is that the NCH got into Sandpoint an hour later than the EB but got to Seattle a half hour earlier by a different route. So the EB takes a slower route to Seattle? Is that due to bigger cities on the EB route, and perhaps higher passenger counts?

Could a smaller NCH stay close to profitable if it was fast enough to normally beat the EB between Fargo and Sandpoint, both ways? Just 2 sleepers, 3 coaches, a SSL and a diner, maybe?
The NCH used the ex NP Stampede Pass route (SEA - Auburn - Yakima - Pasco...). BN decided to mothball that route (actually sold parts of it) due to a lack of clearance for double stack containers. Later on BN decided they needed the extra capacity so they purchased back what they needed and clearanced the tunnels.

Washington State has in their future rail vision state supported service on that route. If they get serious and if Montana were to get serious we might see a reincarnation of the Main Streeter or such (just dreamin').

A realistic vision for Amtrak needs to address several elements

1. Run as efficient a service as possible to show real value for subsidies.

2. Upgrade infrastructure on the NEC... Which pays its operation costs, but not enough left over to fix or replace whats needed.

3. Have enough inventory of locomotives and rolling stock to operate effectively on the routes it now has.

4. Consider additional routes as part of its national mandate.

It looks like JoeB et al are working hard on 1 & 2, with a start on 3 (no superliner-III in the works yet), and should not address 4 until at least 3 is realizable.
 
For example, there have been serious examinations of restoring the North Coast Hiawatha, Desert Wind, and Pioneer over the last five years. There have also been visions proposed for the NEC, many of which could swallow decades of HSR funding. Why has there been no serious proposal for expanding the LD system pushed?
Why don't you consider the NCH, DW and Pioneer expanding the LD system?

While I think such a plan would be great, there's a decent counterpoint that they're not wasting resources on things that have little chance of coming to pass and focusing on things that they can accomplish. With bleak prospects for more money from the feds, focusing on the states sounds like a good move for a new source of funds.
The problem with focusing on states is that it requires regional cooperation, and basically gives every state a veto. A Twin Cities-Chicago day train would seem to be a no-brainer, but there's no way Minnesota is going to appropriate money if Wisconsin doesn't.
 
I agree, multi state agreements are not easy.

Just using the example of the NCH shown above, even if Montana and Washington state agree on a subsidy, you also have to reach an agreement with both North Dakota and Idaho. If even if 1 of them says no, that would probably kill the proposal.
 
The NCH used the ex NP Stampede Pass route (SEA - Auburn - Yakima - Pasco...). BN decided to mothball that route (actually sold parts of it) due to a lack of clearance for double stack containers. Later on BN decided they needed the extra capacity so they purchased back what they needed and clearanced the tunnels.
Minor nit. Actually it was Amtrak's Empire Builder that ran through Stampede Pass. NCH ran through Stevens Pass at least just before it got canned.
Stampede Pass lost service when NCH was discontinued, the Empire Builder was moved to Stevens Pass and became a three times a week train from a four times a week train, and also got Superliner equipment. The Empire Builder was also moved to run via Staples MN, which the NCH use to do. The Empire Builder used to run via Wilmar MNbefore that. All this in the October 1979 timetable AFAIR.

Later in the October 1981 timetable a Portland Section was added to the Empire Builder to reintroduce service through Pasco, and the Empire Builder became a daily train in December that year. I actually traveled on the Portland Section within weeks of its inauguration, so I remember that well.

Washington State has in their future rail vision state supported service on that route. If they get serious and if Montana were to get serious we might see a reincarnation of the Main Streeter or such (just dreamin').
I am genuinely looking for a Washington State Rail Plan which definitively talks about passenger service on the Stampede Pass route. Could you help me find such a statement somewhere? Thanks much for your (and Charlie's should he step into the breech) indulgence.
 
I agree, multi state agreements are not easy.

Just using the example of the NCH shown above, even if Montana and Washington state agree on a subsidy, you also have to reach an agreement with both North Dakota and Idaho. If even if 1 of them says no, that would probably kill the proposal.
It all depends. NH saying No has not killed the Downeaster.
 
I am genuinely looking for a Washington State Rail Plan which definitively talks about passenger service on the Stampede Pass route. Could you help me find such a statement somewhere? Thanks much for your (and Charlie's should he step into the breech) indulgence.
I was positive that it was included in the draft plan that is being developed now, but I can't locate it. I'll keep looking and post when I find it. I know that a representative of the state rail office specifically mentioned their desire to offer such service when he spoke at a recent All Aboard Washington meeting. But of course, there is no funding at present.
 
Well, in the case of an NCH, there's not much of a case to be made for ID subsidizing it...Sandpoint probably has a negligible impact on it either way, and the state barely has any route-miles in it. The other question would be whether Amtrak would be allowed to swallow some of the losses.

Let's assume (for the sake of argument) that the train would run a $25m direct operating loss. I think it is plausible that you could get WA, MT, and MN to talk with one another at the very least (as I'm assuming the train would run separately from the Builder CHI-MSP). I think you could see a situation where the three divvy up either all $25m among them, or where Amtrak eats a share of the direct losses.

And I do think it is possible that you could get ND on board with some support, even if it was "indirect" (i.e. the state pays for re-opening and manning a few stations or something like that).
 
As far as I'm aware, a state can't veto the idea and say "we won't allow a train to go through our state." They can definitely decide to not subsidize it, but that doesn't necessarily kill a proposal.

I don't see Idaho subsidizing a NCH, either, but there's so little territory in their state that I wouldn't blame them for not subsidizing it. WA and MN are somewhat rail-friendly (I could see MN getting on-board, and WA seems to be pro-rail.) ND has a boom right now in their state coffers, so there's a chance that they would find it worthy of money (though I wouldn't bank on anything beyond an indirect subsidy.)

A CHI-MSP train might be viable as well even with limited support from WI. I could see WI allowing it to serve as a Hiawatha frequency and subsidizing it as such if it was a slot where an exactly-on-time train isn't necessary (a delay of less than 30ish minutes would be acceptable.) That may bring in enough money for Minnesota to decide to pay the rest. (The majority of the benefit MSP - MKE is for people traveling to/from Minnesota, especially without a direct Madison stop.)

Ultimately, though, Amtrak should have a nationwide rail plan to push for and have as a talking point for those who want to see increased rail service. It's a hard sell to get a North Dakota senator, for example, to support anything but the status quo and make investments in the NEC when there's no plans for anything beyond the status quo for his constituents. Even if the plan is long-range, it gives something for Amtrak to sell to non-NEC congressional members for increased funding. (Of course, they should also follow through on the plan if investments were made.)
 
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