Amtrak Viewliner Diner 8400

[Tails]

Does anyone have a diagram of the interior layout of Viewliner 8400 before it was ripped apart?

The most recent interior pictures I can find show the car basically gutted at Beach Grove being rebuilt. Which is not very helpful

I'm working with Perrock on a model of it for Trainz Railroad Simulator. But other then the Placement of the tables, which were all a guess, I have no idea how the interior was laid out

I really need the area around the kitchen. I have no pictures of that area, so I have had to work off the layout of older Heritage diners, which I know won't be as accurate.

Thanks for any help!

 

[NE933]

This sounds like 'Jeopardy', the answer is the text below. The question response: what the group workers at Beeech Grove just screamed out because the original plans are lost, and, without Pullman, Budd, or other car builder, the 8400 project is screwed.

Does anyone have a diagram of the interior layout of Viewliner 8400 before it was ripped apart?
The most recent interior pictures I can find show the car basically gutted at Beach Grove being rebuilt. Which is not very helpful

I'm working with Perrock on a model of it for Trainz Railroad Simulator. But other then the Placement of the tables, which were all a guess, I have no idea how the interior was laid out

I really need the area around the kitchen. I have no pictures of that area, so I have had to work off the layout of older Heritage diners, which I know won't be as accurate.

Thanks for any help!

 

[battalion51]

AFAIK the layout was very similar to a non-refurbed Heritage dinner, just modified for the walls of the shell...

 

[Green Maned Lion]

AFAIK the layout was very similar to a non-refurbed Heritage dinner, just modified for the walls of the shell...

Correct.

BTW, 8400 isn't screwed. It is just awaiting test modules that are going to be part of the entire Viewliner II project, if and when that gets built.

 

[NE933]

BTW, 8400 isn't screwed. It is just awaiting test modules that are going to be part of the entire Viewliner II project, if and when that gets built.

That's a long test. I mean, the Diner moved to BG months ago. Wouldn't the modules have been prepared by now?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That's a long test. I mean, the Diner moved to BG months ago. Wouldn't the modules have been prepared by now?

That would depend on a lot of things. For example, the general situation concerning the Viewliner II project. To be completely honest, there is no reason on earth why Amtrak would bother putting the wreck that is 8400 on the road unless it was to serve as a rolling prototype.

If the Viewliner II project in general is on hold (and a lot of things point that way, including no submission of bids by Alstom, Bombardier, Talgo, or Kawasaki!), then ordering modules for the Viewliner IIs to be built would be a waste of time and money. They aren't going to order modules for the one Viewliner Diner in existence until they are damned sure there are going to be more.

I've heard a lot of reports, including the various builders holding out to wait and see if there is more to the Viewliner II project than a handful of baggage, diner, dorm, and sleeper cars. If the Viewliner project includes replacement of the entire Amtrak single-level fleet, it changes a lot of things.

My understanding is that the Viewliner shell is intended to form the basis for the replacement of not only the Heritage cars but also the Amfleet I, Amfleet II, and Horizon cars. Plus perhaps form a loose basis for the Acela II. If I can pick up that information, I'm sure the major rail car builders can pick that up, too.

Now, the company who has already set up the assembly line for the Viewliner II sleepers, diners, baggage, and baggage dorm cars is probably going to be able to under-bid and still profitably fulfill the contract for the LD lounges, coaches, SD coaches and SD cafe cars.

If that is the true case, than whoever wins this 125 car order isn't winning an 125 car order. They are de facto winning the contract for the entire 600 SD coaches, 150 LD coaches, 100 SD cafes, 30 LD lounges, plus a likely additional order of sleepers and diners. Not to mention 240 cars worth of high-speed equipment and 80 locomotives or so if they get the Acela II order, too.

If this is a 125 car order alone, they will bid based upon their belief of making a profit on a small contract bid- that is, they'll bid what they think they can profitably take this for. But... if they think they are really bidding on a 1100-1400 car long-term assembly contract, well they'll be bidding based on that. They'll bid lower and more competitively because winning this isn't winning a 3 year profit venture. It's winning a 20 year constant workload and profit.

 

[MikeM]

If the Viewliner II project in general is on hold (and a lot of things point that way, including no submission of bids by Alstom, Bombardier, Talgo, or Kawasaki!), then ordering modules for the Viewliner IIs to be built would be a waste of time and money. They aren't going to order modules for the one Viewliner Diner in existence until they are damned sure there are going to be more.

I thought that the single level replacement program was a firm go and that bids were being requested several months ago. Then again, I thought they'd be announcing who got the contract by now, and there hasn't been diddly about it. What'd driving the delay (money?). Is there a dream that the antiquated equipment used on single level routes, particularly baggage and diner cars, are getting newer or better as time rolls on? Does anyone know the backstory on this situation?

 

[wayman]

If the Viewliner II project in general is on hold (and a lot of things point that way, including no submission of bids by Alstom, Bombardier, Talgo, or Kawasaki!), then ordering modules for the Viewliner IIs to be built would be a waste of time and money. They aren't going to order modules for the one Viewliner Diner in existence until they are damned sure there are going to be more.

I thought that the single level replacement program was a firm go and that bids were being requested several months ago. Then again, I thought they'd be announcing who got the contract by now, and there hasn't been diddly about it. What'd driving the delay (money?).

Sure, bids were requested several months ago, yes. But if none were submitted, then Amtrak can't announce which one they're awarding a contract to.

(The only part of this that's a firm go, or close to it, is the first half, the baggages and whatnot. A very small part of the single-level fleet. That's the only part bids were requested for.)

 

[Hytec]

GML, your argument is well thought out, logical, and probably very close to being correct. My only question is who is this company that "has already set up an assembly line"? Your statement can be interpreted both ways, either as one of logical conjecture, or one of inside knowledge (or at least strongly supported rumor).

Corporate hesitancy for investing money, even for major proposal efforts, into the next generation of Amtrak rolling stock is well-founded. Savvy corporations are no longer fooled by the Federal Government's promise of firmly funded long-term programs. The next generation mid-air refueling tanker for the USAF is the most recent case in point, where the proposal was won fair and square by the EADS/Northrop Grumman team, only to have the award cancelled by politics, lobbying, and back-room friendship deals. Fool Me Once, Shame On You....etc.

 

[wayman]

Corporate hesitancy for investing money, even for major proposal efforts, into the next generation of Amtrak rolling stock is well-founded. Savvy corporations are no longer fooled by the Federal Government's promise of firmly funded long-term programs. The next generation mid-air refueling tanker for the USAF is the most recent case in point, where the proposal was won fair and square by the EADS/Northrop Grumman team, only to have the award cancelled by politics, lobbying, and back-room friendship deals. Fool Me Once, Shame On You....etc.

Likewise, the story of how the government awarded, then rescinded, contracts to two different companies for littoral combat ship prototypes, and then awarded new contracts with different terms to the same two companies... I had no idea it was so easy for the government to cancel contracts like this before the initial deliverables were even delivered in full, until I read about the LCSs a few months ago. I'd mistakenly thought they could just decide not to order more of something they'd initially intended to order more of.

I certainly wouldn't want to submit a bid to the government on any large construction project if I knew the rug might be pulled out from under me after I've sunk all the costs into factory construction, etc, but before I've delivered many of the products I'm actually being paid for. If a private company were soliciting bids -- and paying the contract with their own money -- that's a much safer bet, since you're pretty sure they won't lose the money and if they do try to renege on the deal you could take them to court for breach of contract. (I don't know that you can sue the government over this sort of thing, at least not successfully at any rate.)

I mean, given recent history, it would appear to be possible to get a factory to bid on 50 single-level baggage cars, and then cancel the contract after they've built the factory and delivered the first ten.

 

[NE933]

Green Maned Lion wrote:

"If the Viewliner II project in general is on hold (and a lot of things point that way, including no submission of bids by Alstom, Bombardier, Talgo, or Kawasaki!), then ordering modules for the Viewliner IIs to be built would be a waste of time and money. They aren't going to order modules for the one Viewliner Diner in existence until they are damned sure there are going to be more.

I've heard a lot of reports, including the various builders holding out to wait and see if there is more to the Viewliner II project than a handful of baggage, diner, dorm, and sleeper cars. If the Viewliner project includes replacement of the entire Amtrak single-level fleet, it changes a lot of things.

My understanding is that the Viewliner shell is intended to form the basis for the replacement of not only the Heritage cars but also the Amfleet I, Amfleet II, and Horizon cars. Plus perhaps form a loose basis for the Acela II. If I can pick up that information, I'm sure the major rail car builders can pick that up, too.

If that is the true case, than whoever wins this 125 car order isn't winning an 125 car order. They are de facto winning the contract for the entire 600 SD coaches, 150 LD coaches, 100 SD cafes, 30 LD lounges, plus a likely additional order of sleepers and diners. Not to mention 240 cars worth of high-speed equipment and 80 locomotives or so if they get the Acela II order, too. "

So ONE car builder will get the entire store? The Viewliners, Superliners, Acela II, next generation corridor? If that's true, it would be much easier to attract a single supplier with a massive contract than two or three with watered down business.

Green Maned Lion continues:

"If this is a 125 car order alone, they will bid based upon their belief of making a profit on a small contract bid- that is, they'll bid what they think they can profitably take this for. But... if they think they are really bidding on a 1100-1400 car long-term assembly contract, well they'll be bidding based on that. "

So, as the song 'Rock On' says, where do we go from here? From what your information says, it sounds like Amtrak is trying to gather up and galvanize the forces that will result in contracts for all railcars from a single builder.

 

[AlanB]

If the Viewliner II project in general is on hold (and a lot of things point that way, including no submission of bids by Alstom, Bombardier, Talgo, or Kawasaki!), then ordering modules for the Viewliner IIs to be built would be a waste of time and money. They aren't going to order modules for the one Viewliner Diner in existence until they are damned sure there are going to be more.

I thought that the single level replacement program was a firm go and that bids were being requested several months ago. Then again, I thought they'd be announcing who got the contract by now, and there hasn't been diddly about it. What'd driving the delay (money?).

Sure, bids were requested several months ago, yes. But if none were submitted, then Amtrak can't announce which one they're awarding a contract to.

(The only part of this that's a firm go, or close to it, is the first half, the baggages and whatnot. A very small part of the single-level fleet. That's the only part bids were requested for.)

There are two problems with the Viewliner order for 75 bags, 25 diners, and 15 sleepers. One, while several companies showed up at the various meetings to collect the needed info, no one submitted a bid. Two, Congress hasn't actually given Amtrak the money to pay for the new Viewliners so far.

 

[jis]

There are two problems with the Viewliner order for 75 bags, 25 diners, and 15 sleepers. One, while several companies showed up at the various meetings to collect the needed info, no one submitted a bid. Two, Congress hasn't actually given Amtrak the money to pay for the new Viewliners so far.

I have been curious about this so let me go ahead and ask the question..... Do we know for sure that "no one submitted a bid"? Or is it just the case that we are not aware of anyone having submitted a bid. The latter could occur because information on bids are being withheld for competitive fairness or some such, pending actual availability of funds?

 

[AlanB]

There are two problems with the Viewliner order for 75 bags, 25 diners, and 15 sleepers. One, while several companies showed up at the various meetings to collect the needed info, no one submitted a bid. Two, Congress hasn't actually given Amtrak the money to pay for the new Viewliners so far.

I have been curious about this so let me go ahead and ask the question..... Do we know for sure that "no one submitted a bid"? Or is it just the case that we are not aware of anyone having submitted a bid. The latter could occur because information on bids are being withheld for competitive fairness or some such, pending actual availability of funds?

I've not heard anything that I would term "official", and therefore would rule nothing out with 100% certainty. Especially at Amtrak where even official things suddenly go bye-bye, shades of the Skyline Connection. So it is possible that a bid or two was submitted and Amtrak is holding that info at very close hand with no leaks.

However that said, all info that I'm hearing suggests that despite initial interest, that no bids were indeed received. Why? I’m not sure. I don’t know if the order was just too small; or if no one bothered to do the work because they didn’t want to waste their time until Congress actually gives Amtrak the money; or some other reason.

 

[Rafi]

I'll chime in with what I know, which is limited, but may be of help.

1). As far as I know, SOME bids were received. I don't have any specifics, but everyone I talk to at Amtrak who seems to know something, is very tight lipped, other than to say things are going as expected in the bidding department. Take that for what it's worth. Again, I wish I knew more.

2). The 8400 sat in the Grove for quite some time while other stimulus projects were being handled on the wrecked equipment. The 8400 in that sense became more of a backburner project, which I can understand given that there's no funding for new Viewliners from congress yet.

3). The modules are being manufactured only after the workers at BG are SURE about the dimensions/functionality. Remember, this is being done from the ground-up with no prototype to work off of. (it IS the prototype). So it's not a simple matter of just ordering modules and bolting them down. The mockup modules have to get mocked up, tweaked, re-tweaked, moved to other locations for alternative arrangements, tweaked, re-tweaked, etc etc, and only then are the specs sent off for fabrication. Then those "real" modules come in, and get tweaked, re-tweaked, etc.

I wouldn't call the Viewliner order dead by any stretch. It's just the typical "slower than expected" process that unfortunately is part of Amtrak sometimes.

Rafi

 

[NE933]

Alan B. wrote:

" I don’t know if the order was just too small; or if no one bothered to do the work because they didn’t want to waste their time until Congress actually gives Amtrak the money; or some other reason."

But I thought Congress appropriated capital in the FY10 budgets, along with APRA, PRIIA, and High speed stimulus? At face value it seems that there/s enough to buy at least half of Amtrak's fleet plan.

 

[Hytec]

I'll chime in with what I know, which is limited, but may be of help.
1). As far as I know, SOME bids were received. I don't have any specifics, but everyone I talk to at Amtrak who seems to know something, is very tight lipped, other than to say things are going as expected in the bidding department. Take that for what it's worth. Again, I wish I knew more.

2). The 8400 sat in the Grove for quite some time while other stimulus projects were being handled on the wrecked equipment. The 8400 in that sense became more of a backburner project, which I can understand given that there's no funding for new Viewliners from congress yet.

3). The modules are being manufactured only after the workers at BG are SURE about the dimensions/functionality. Remember, this is being done from the ground-up with no prototype to work off of. (it IS the prototype). So it's not a simple matter of just ordering modules and bolting them down. The mockup modules have to get mocked up, tweaked, re-tweaked, moved to other locations for alternative arrangements, tweaked, re-tweaked, etc etc, and only then are the specs sent off for fabrication. Then those "real" modules come in, and get tweaked, re-tweaked, etc.

I wouldn't call the Viewliner order dead by any stretch. It's just the typical "slower than expected" process that unfortunately is part of Amtrak sometimes.

Rafi

Rafi, your description of 8400 is probably what we used to call the Engineering Development Model (EDM) phase. Developing an EDM is the process of progressing from an approved concept on paper, to an operational physical prototype sitting on a development lab floor from which final assembly drawings can be generated and given to Manufacturing. The EDM is full of Ooopses and other more earthy exclamations of frustration that can not be printed in family-friendly forums. The EDM process can take one to two years depending on how many problems arise, including ones where you suddenly realize that the human body can not move that way in a galley, or you attempt to install a module just received from a sub-contractor and it doesn't fit. In both cases, you hear the expression "Darn It, Why Did They Build It Like The Drawing Showed....GRRRR!" The EDM phase is lots of fun, but not for faint-hearted schedule and budget minded managers.

 

[Eric S]

Alan B. wrote:" I don’t know if the order was just too small; or if no one bothered to do the work because they didn’t want to waste their time until Congress actually gives Amtrak the money; or some other reason."

But I thought Congress appropriated capital in the FY10 budgets, along with APRA, PRIIA, and High speed stimulus? At face value it seems that there/s enough to buy at least half of Amtrak's fleet plan.

PRIIA was just an authorization, it didn't appropriate any funds. The funding in the other acts/bills/budgets referred to is largely allocated to specific projects already. In other words, Amtrak needs additional funding over and above any already appropriated to proceed with and procure new Viewliner equipment.

 

[jis]

1). As far as I know, SOME bids were received. I don't have any specifics, but everyone I talk to at Amtrak who seems to know something, is very tight lipped, other than to say things are going as expected in the bidding department. Take that for what it's worth. Again, I wish I knew more.

Don Philips let it slip in a corridor conversation weekend before last that no one at Amtrak would even talk to him anymore about any equipment purchase bids related matters. He surmised that this had possibly to do with maintaining fairness in the bidding process, wherein in the past leaks about one bid to another vendor have caused problems. The phrase "holding information very close to their chest" was used. Take it for what that is worth. This got me thinking that maybe there is something other than "no bids received" that is going on here. Possibly they will not talk about it until they are in a position to actually process the bids and let out contracts.

 

[Rafi]

1). As far as I know, SOME bids were received. I don't have any specifics, but everyone I talk to at Amtrak who seems to know something, is very tight lipped, other than to say things are going as expected in the bidding department. Take that for what it's worth. Again, I wish I knew more.

Don Philips let it slip in a corridor conversation weekend before last that no one at Amtrak would even talk to him anymore about any equipment purchase bids related matters. He surmised that this had possibly to do with maintaining fairness in the bidding process, wherein in the past leaks about one bid to another vendor have caused problems. The phrase "holding information very close to their chest" was used. Take it for what that is worth. This got me thinking that maybe there is something other than "no bids received" that is going on here. Possibly they will not talk about it until they are in a position to actually process the bids and let out contracts.

SPECULATION HAT WARNING.

What you're saying, Jishnu, jives with what I've seen as well: "holding information very close to their chest." And in speaking from experience in dealing with the RFP process at places like Amtrak, I can tell you that all information is kept STRICTLY confidential until an announcement with regard to final choice has been made. So it sounds to me that while they HAVE gotten bids, no final decision has been made. That decision may not come (speculation, again) until Congress tells Amtrak how much money they have to work with, which means we may not hear anything about Viewliners until then, short of seeing progress on the 8400.

Rafi

 

[wayman]

SPECULATION HAT WARNING.What you're saying, Jishnu, jives with what I've seen as well: "holding information very close to their chest." And in speaking from experience in dealing with the RFP process at places like Amtrak, I can tell you that all information is kept STRICTLY confidential until an announcement with regard to final choice has been made. So it sounds to me that while they HAVE gotten bids, no final decision has been made. That decision may not come (speculation, again) until Congress tells Amtrak how much money they have to work with, which means we may not hear anything about Viewliners until then, short of seeing progress on the 8400.

... by which time, with Amtrak's luck, endangered turtles may be discovered on the site the bidding company had intended to use for building a factory, delaying things until the money dries up, after which point the turtles will be determined not to be endangered after all....

 

[NE933]

1). As far as I know, SOME bids were received. I don't have any specifics, but everyone I talk to at Amtrak who seems to know something, is very tight lipped, other than to say things are going as expected in the bidding department. Take that for what it's worth. Again, I wish I knew more.

This got me thinking that maybe there is something other than "no bids received" that is going on here. Possibly they will not talk about it until they are in a position to actually process the bids and let out contracts.

SPECULATION HAT WARNING.

What you're saying, Jishnu, jives with what I've seen as well: "holding information very close to their chest." And in speaking from experience in dealing with the RFP process at places like Amtrak, I can tell you that all information is kept STRICTLY confidential until an announcement with regard to final choice has been made. So it sounds to me that while they HAVE gotten bids, no final decision has been made. That decision may not come (speculation, again) until Congress tells Amtrak how much money they have to work with, which means we may not hear anything about Viewliners until then, short of seeing progress on the 8400.

Rafi

OK, then if this is the case, fabulous! Pointing to the week of upcoming May 23rd that 'Amtrak Ink' says a contract will be awarded for, if i remember, the first set of Viewliner II's and 20 of the electric locomotives. It sounds that all parties involved: Amtrak, the present Administration in Washington, and the various train builders/suppliers, are using a combination of various what they refer to in negotiations as 'holdbacks', with the objective of ensuring each party emerges a winner and will get what they need. The thing is, if stars line up sooner, that is, if a great deal is reached, will they artificially wait until 5/23 and thus jeopardize the procurement?

 

[Hytec]

Guys, having been in the middle of our Government's multi-billion Dollar RFP process for many more years than I care to remember, if the procuring agency does not ABSOLUTELY(!) control their contract funding money, then forget all after "HELLO". Sorry, but with Congress having Go/NoGo authority on a contract, everything becomes a crap shoot and every bidder risks Millions! Been there, done that too many times to accept that the US Government is here to "Help" us......R I G H T !!!!!!

Sorry, but that is VERY sore subject.....!

 

[jis]

OK, then if this is the case, fabulous! Pointing to the week of upcoming May 23rd that 'Amtrak Ink' says a contract will be awarded for, if i remember, the first set of Viewliner II's and 20 of the electric locomotives.

Do you perchance remember which issue of Amtrak Ink this piece of news appeared in? I am looking for it and can't find it. Thanks.

 

[NE933]

OK, then if this is the case, fabulous! Pointing to the week of upcoming May 23rd that 'Amtrak Ink' says a contract will be awarded for, if i remember, the first set of Viewliner II's and 20 of the electric locomotives.

Do you perchance remember which issue of Amtrak Ink this piece of news appeared in? I am looking for it and can't find it. Thanks.

I did too, along with various Financial Statements, Business Plans, even the Fleet Strategy, and can't find it. I remember it being mentioned that "we (Amtrak) expects to choose a bidder on or around May 23rd. " It had to be something this year, because I wrote it down on my schedule book. It's possible that it was stated in a quoted remark of Joe Boardman in a conversation with him. However, I'll keep looking.