Amtrak Superliner vs Boeing 737

[jis]

Southwest does not have Boeing 737-800s

.
Do a google search for N8301J.

Right. Not in Seatguru yet though. Mea culpa.

Typical seating in what Southwest has - 737-700 and 737-300 is about 140 or so in single class.

737-500s seat 122. 737-300s and -700s seat 137 in the old configuration. However, they are introducing a new interior that will seat 143.

Their 737-800s seat 175 using the same new seating found in their 143-seat -700s.

Good to know. Thanks.

Not only 738's, but ETOPS 738's. Hmm.

Hawaii? Caribbean?

 

[AlanB]

When you compare just the living space (interior dimensions) of [which Amtrak configuration - I used Amfleet II, 72 occupant] to the living space of [which 737 configuration - I used -800, 175 occupant], compare seat pitch, seat width, and aisle width.

An Amfleet II car seats 59, not 72.

An Amfleet I typically seats 72.

And just for comparison, a Superliner coach seats 74 or 75.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

1. I think that one should compare Amtrak to an avergare airline like United.

2. The Indian trains are broad gauge (well, most of them) so a five across seating on Amtrak would be like a commuter train.

3. Here are some equipment diagrams from back when PRR ran private trains. You can calculate very accurate seat pitch and witch from these floorplans. http://prr.railfan.n...l?sel=&sz=sm=

4. Please stop discussing where you think WN is going to use ETOPS 738s. I thought this was a train forum. Why don't use discuss that on www.airliners.net.

 

[jis]

2. The Indian trains are broad gauge (well, most of them) so a five across seating on smtrak would be like a commuter train.

Irrespective of the track gauge, Indian Railways basically uses UIC loading gauge for its main line trains. Only its suburban EMUs use a wider loading gauge.

 

[jebr]

For comparison, the "Cheap" airline over in Europe Ryanair uses 738's and has them set up at a capacity of 189 people; with 30" pitch.

and here is a pic of the interior: http://www.airliners...-8AS/1240838/M/

peter

Cripes! 6 seats across in a737! Can you say MOO?!?!?

If I'm only paying $20 and getting a reasonable distance, why not?

Ryanair is not Amtrak. Maybe a better comparison would be Megabus, but even those seats aren't terribly cramped (and Ryanair has a bunch of little fees.)

For me, it's the best value proposition. If I'm not checking luggage, I don't care if the checked baggage fee is $25 (or even $250); I won't be needing that. If I don't need/want to buy food on board, I don't care what the price is. If I need to check bags, I'll factor that in when looking at flights/Amtrak/bus. Time of travel is also a concern; a flight of two hours requires less leg pitch than a 25-hour train ride (and less worry about food or drink).

Every service has its place.

 

[railiner]

2. The Indian trains are broad gauge (well, most of them) so a five across seating on smtrak would be like a commuter train.

Irrespective of the track gauge, Indian Railways basically uses UIC loading gauge for its main line trains. Only its suburban EMUs use a wider loading gauge.

I recall someone, (perhaps yourself?), some time back posting a photo of a packed Indian Railways wide gauge train that had SIX across seating. Incredible!

While you explain that only the suburban routes have such equipment, imagine if they could enjoy that gauge on long-haul trains.....It would open a new world for elaborate sleepers, lounges, etc with all that extra space.....

 

[railiner]

Just quick numbers off Wikipedia. Yes the height is the fuselage height. It's just insane how tightly they pack airlines. I don't think it started out that way, but over time they've had to increase density to stay profitable. A train can never be as dense as a plane since travel times are so much longer, but I think we would see density increase if private money took over.

Some trains that have shorter travel times can be more densely packed than a plane. The highest number of seats I have seen in a single coach was the old Pullman-Standard gallery cars on the C&NW....they seated as many as 169!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Just quick numbers off Wikipedia. Yes the height is the fuselage height. It's just insane how tightly they pack airlines. I don't think it started out that way, but over time they've had to increase density to stay profitable. A train can never be as dense as a plane since travel times are so much longer, but I think we would see density increase if private money took over.

Some trains that have shorter travel times can be more densely packed than a plane. The highest number of seats I have seen in a single coach was the old Pullman-Standard gallery cars on the C&NW....they seated as many as 169!

Probably so, but those were commuter cars, not Amtrak-style. I heard that the most cramped Amtrak was a Horizon or Amfleet with 88 seats. Forgot which. Superliners are much more comfy.

 

[railiner]

Just quick numbers off Wikipedia. Yes the height is the fuselage height. It's just insane how tightly they pack airlines. I don't think it started out that way, but over time they've had to increase density to stay profitable. A train can never be as dense as a plane since travel times are so much longer, but I think we would see density increase if private money took over.

Some trains that have shorter travel times can be more densely packed than a plane. The highest number of seats I have seen in a single coach was the old Pullman-Standard gallery cars on the C&NW....they seated as many as 169!

Probably so, but those were commuter cars, not Amtrak-style. I heard that the most cramped Amtrak was a Horizon or Amfleet with 88 seats. Forgot which. Superliners are much more comfy.

C&NW also had some long-haul gallery cars, which Amtrak inherited and used for several years. Their seating was more comfortable, and less dense, but I don't recall the actual capacity. Some of them even had a cafe area.........

 

[jphjaxfl]

C&NW even had P-S built Parlor Gallery cars that operated on day trains from Chicago to Milwaukee to Green Bay area and points north. They were very nice and seated many more than single level Parlors.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

But the 169-seat galleys were NOT. That's important. Does anybody know the most cramped Amtrak railcar ever?

 

[Texan Eagle]

2. The Indian trains are broad gauge (well, most of them) so a five across seating on smtrak would be like a commuter train.

Irrespective of the track gauge, Indian Railways basically uses UIC loading gauge for its main line trains. Only its suburban EMUs use a wider loading gauge.

I recall someone, (perhaps yourself?), some time back posting a photo of a packed Indian Railways wide gauge train that had SIX across seating. Incredible!

While you explain that only the suburban routes have such equipment, imagine if they could enjoy that gauge on long-haul trains.....It would open a new world for elaborate sleepers, lounges, etc with all that extra space.....

Here's an example of a non-AC 2nd class coach from Indian Railways with 6 across seating on standard UIC gauge-

Note that the seats are bench-type, not individual seats, so people can adjust according to their size, it causes a problem only when three big passengers end up sharing a bench!

Indian Railways also experimented with a low-cost air-conditioned class with 6 across seating, with individual seats, again on standard UIC loading gauge-

I have tried these seats. It is not the most comfortable way to travel, but its not unbearable either. It just feels like being in a domestic Economy class in a narrowbody airplane

 

[railiner]

2. The Indian trains are broad gauge (well, most of them) so a five across seating on smtrak would be like a commuter train.

Irrespective of the track gauge, Indian Railways basically uses UIC loading gauge for its main line trains. Only its suburban EMUs use a wider loading gauge.

I recall someone, (perhaps yourself?), some time back posting a photo of a packed Indian Railways wide gauge train that had SIX across seating. Incredible!

While you explain that only the suburban routes have such equipment, imagine if they could enjoy that gauge on long-haul trains.....It would open a new world for elaborate sleepers, lounges, etc with all that extra space.....

Here's an example of a non-AC 2nd class coach from Indian Railways with 6 across seating on standard UIC gauge-

Note that the seats are bench-type, not individual seats, so people can adjust according to their size, it causes a problem only when three big passengers end up sharing a bench!

Indian Railways also experimented with a low-cost air-conditioned class with 6 across seating, with individual seats, again on standard UIC loading gauge-

I have tried these seats. It is not the most comfortable way to travel, but its not unbearable either. It just feels like being in a domestic Economy class in a narrowbody airplane

The photo I had seen earlier was fully occupied, but these photo's are terrific, as well. And you say these are the standard, not wide-gauge cars? If that is like US standard cars, they would be ten and a half feet wide, while most narrow-body aircraft that have six across seating are about twelve feet wide.....

 

[railiner]

Getting back to those former C&NW bilevel gallery type cars.....I did some research into my 'archives', and found that the first commuter galleries for the Northwestern were built by St. Louis Car, not Pullman-Standard. These were the ones with the 169 seat configuration. P-S did build subsequent ones later on, with slightly less capacity, due to features such as cabs for push-pull operation, restrooms, etc. P-S built the gallery long-haul cars for the Green Bay 400, and Peninsula 400 streamliners a few years later. The reclining seat chair cars had 96 seats. They also had parlor and cafe cars with lower capacity. These were the cars that Amtrak operated for several years on some midwestern routes. Their 96 seat capacity edges out the 88 seat heritage cars used on 'Clockers' and 84 seat Amcoaches.

 

[Texan Eagle]

2. The Indian trains are broad gauge (well, most of them) so a five across seating on smtrak would be like a commuter train.

Irrespective of the track gauge, Indian Railways basically uses UIC loading gauge for its main line trains. Only its suburban EMUs use a wider loading gauge.

I recall someone, (perhaps yourself?), some time back posting a photo of a packed Indian Railways wide gauge train that had SIX across seating. Incredible!

While you explain that only the suburban routes have such equipment, imagine if they could enjoy that gauge on long-haul trains.....It would open a new world for elaborate sleepers, lounges, etc with all that extra space.....

Here's an example of a non-AC 2nd class coach from Indian Railways with 6 across seating on standard UIC gauge-

Note that the seats are bench-type, not individual seats, so people can adjust according to their size, it causes a problem only when three big passengers end up sharing a bench!

Indian Railways also experimented with a low-cost air-conditioned class with 6 across seating, with individual seats, again on standard UIC loading gauge-

I have tried these seats. It is not the most comfortable way to travel, but its not unbearable either. It just feels like being in a domestic Economy class in a narrowbody airplane

The photo I had seen earlier was fully occupied, but these photo's are terrific, as well. And you say these are the standard, not wide-gauge cars? If that is like US standard cars, they would be ten and a half feet wide, while most narrow-body aircraft that have six across seating are about twelve feet wide.....

The tracks on which these trains run are broad gauge but the coach shells are essentially old European design built to standard loading gauge. Yes, you are correct they are ten and half feet wide, it makes them narrower than Boeing 737 or Airbus A320, so yes, they are cramped. Considering that the average size and build of people in India is thinner/leaner than here in the United States, three people can somehow manage in this seating, but I doubt three average Americans would be able to fit in!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

... This is silliness. Let's say I run a private bus. Per NYC block, I charge $5, have a 25" pitch and six across seating. Also carry on baggage fees. How many people do you think are going to ride my bus? That's right. None. Never mind that the bus can carry 125 people and thus theoretically make $625 revenue dollars per block, or $62500 for a Penn Station to Harlem run. No riders, no money.

A privatized rail line will need to balance service, price, comfort, and speed, as airlines do. Airlines have lots of speed for the money. No matter who runs them, speed will not carry a profitable train network. Comfort and service will continue, because those greedy SOBs want money. The need riders to start thinking about making money. If a train was the same BS as planes, you said it yourself, we wouldn't ride. No riders, no revenue, no money, no profit. Think like a businessman, and then open your mouthed!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So the most cramped Amtrak in history was the 88-seat Heritage cars? The galleys carry more but are also much larger. What about the most cramped Amtrak car currently? I'm thinking Horizon or some type of state-owned corridor car.

Oops, typo.