Amtrak Special on FEC

[jis]

The most realistic course is for a rerouting of the Silver Meteor via the FEC route, while the Silver Star conntinues on its present route.

That is not what is being planned at present.

 

[VentureForth]

The most realistic course is for a rerouting of the Silver Meteor via the FEC route, while the Silver Star conntinues on its present route.

That is not what is being planned at present.

I completely agree that this should be the course of action, and again sometimes I wonder why I'm not in charge :blink: . It would increase revenue on both routes.

The Meteor would attract customers by being even faster than it is now for those travelling to Mia from points North of Jacksonville who aren't Disneyphobes. The Star would pick up additional Disneyphobes from the Meteor and would be the sole choice for travel in Central and Western Florida.

jis' plan seems excessively expensive to implement - requiring dwell time and labor to split and join trainsets, repositioning (or eliminating from one route or the other) sleeper cars, and having twice the number of crews.

 

[Donctor]

The Star would pick up additional Disneyphobes from the Meteor and would be the sole choice for travel in Central and Western Florida.

Would the Star's coach capacity have to be expanded for inter-Florida travelers who could no longer use the Meteor? Are the coaches generally full on that portion of the route?

 

[VentureForth]

The Star would pick up additional Disneyphobes from the Meteor and would be the sole choice for travel in Central and Western Florida.

Would the Star's coach capacity have to be expanded for inter-Florida travelers who could no longer use the Meteor? Are the coaches generally full on that portion of the route?

An interesting question. Probably not. But, iirc, the Star runs with one less coach and one less sleeper right now. Adding one of each should be no problem, if there is the need. The biggest negative is how many people between Savannah and Rocky Mount (either via Charleston or Columbia) would no longer be able to reach a certain part of Florida. For instance, if you are in either of those two cities, you can currently go to Tampa. With Delvyrails and my theory, if you live in Columbia, you would no longer have direct access to Orlando or Tampa.

One way to mitigate this would be to have both trains arrive in JAX at the same time for a cross-platform transfer. But that would mean a 2 hour layover for Amtrak's guaranteed connection requirements.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Ah, diverting the south-bound 97, bypassing Orlando is OK. However, the north-bound 98 still needs to pick me up in Orlando. Otherwise, my local connections don't work (my local connections need to be during day-time 9-5 hours ... including normal late-ness).

 

[AlanB]

jis' plan seems excessively expensive to implement - requiring dwell time and labor to split and join trainsets, repositioning (or eliminating from one route or the other) sleeper cars, and having twice the number of crews.

That's not Jishnu's plan; that's Amtrak's plan. Always has been even when they first started dicussing the FEC back around 2001 or so. In fact, back then IIRC, Amtrak even planned to split the Palm in JAX. I haven't heard anything yet on whether or not the Palm might also be restored to Florida when the new Viewliner's come on line, much less if it too will be split.

But the only way this works is to split the trains. The demand for Florida service is too high to force people to pick the correct train to reach the correct part of Florida.

 

[VentureForth]

jis' plan seems excessively expensive to implement - requiring dwell time and labor to split and join trainsets, repositioning (or eliminating from one route or the other) sleeper cars, and having twice the number of crews.

That's not Jishnu's plan; that's Amtrak's plan. Always has been even when they first started dicussing the FEC back around 2001 or so. In fact, back then IIRC, Amtrak even planned to split the Palm in JAX. I haven't heard anything yet on whether or not the Palm might also be restored to Florida when the new Viewliner's come on line, much less if it too will be split.

But the only way this works is to split the trains. The demand for Florida service is too high to force people to pick the correct train to reach the correct part of Florida.

I respectfully agree that it's Amtrak's plan (not Jishnu's). But I also respectfully disagree that Amtrak's plan makes the most economic and service oriented sense.

Whenever you split a change, you wind up forcing a sellout in one section of a train with open space in the other. For instance, Christmas and New Years, Disney is a top destination. April and May folks head to Daytona for Nascar.

No matter how dumb you are, you can't pick the wrong train when you pick an origination and destination. It's much more plausible to accidently be in the wrong half of the train when it splits.

If they are going to have to have four more crews anyway (2 in each direction), they're better off adding two whole new trains.

 

[jphjaxfl]

jis' plan seems excessively expensive to implement - requiring dwell time and labor to split and join trainsets, repositioning (or eliminating from one route or the other) sleeper cars, and having twice the number of crews.

That's not Jishnu's plan; that's Amtrak's plan. Always has been even when they first started dicussing the FEC back around 2001 or so. In fact, back then IIRC, Amtrak even planned to split the Palm in JAX. I haven't heard anything yet on whether or not the Palm might also be restored to Florida when the new Viewliner's come on line, much less if it too will be split.

But the only way this works is to split the trains. The demand for Florida service is too high to force people to pick the correct train to reach the correct part of Florida.

Amtrak used to split the Meteor in Jacksonville with the Miami section using the S line to Miami and the Tampa/St. Pete section using the A line. The Star split at Auburndale for Miami and Tampa/St. Pete. All the plans I have heard from Amtrak and others mention two trains daily each way from Jacksonviile to Miami via the FEC. They haven't specified about the west coast sections.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

With the conversion of the Cardinal to Superliner, most of this will become available anyway. It will take more time to get the right set of transfer tracks in place in Miami or WPB and get stations set up at the 8 or so proposed stops along the route than getting the equipment to run thease additional sections IMHO.

My understanding is that the Cardinal would only go Superliner with a reroute to St. Louis under the current plans. And that as of present, a St. Louis reroute is a Rosenwald pipe-dream. I was also under the impression that FEC service was a serious plan with a more definite intention of implementation, possibly quite soon if Amtrak can't come to agreement with Sunrail.

In other words, I don't think it was decided as remotely definite that the Cardinal's pool would be availible anywhere near this thing's planned implementation.

Ah, diverting the south-bound 97, bypassing Orlando is OK. However, the north-bound 98 still needs to pick me up in Orlando. Otherwise, my local connections don't work (my local connections need to be during day-time 9-5 hours ... including normal late-ness).

Without attempting to be offensive, you don't exactly matter to Amtrak.

 

[jis]

jis' plan seems excessively expensive to implement - requiring dwell time and labor to split and join trainsets, repositioning (or eliminating from one route or the other) sleeper cars, and having twice the number of crews.

The speculation was only about how they might find and allocate equipment for it. As you say, the plan is Amtrak's.

 

[jis]

In other words, I don't think it was decided as remotely definite that the Cardinal's pool would be availible anywhere near this thing's planned implementation.

Well, while not committing to it in any way, the person at Amtrak that I talked to said that irrespective of whether Cardinal goes to St. Louis or not, the changeover to Superliner and to a daily train is likely to happen within the next 12 months. We will know a bit more if things are headed in that direction when the Fall/Winter timetable comes out.

The FEC thing is unlikely to happen within 24 months, because there is much work to be done first in the way of getting station facilities in place and building track connections to make ops at the Miami end practical, some of which does not yet have identified funding. It would appear that late 2012 is probably a good guestimate since that is when Miami Central Station is supposed to go on line.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Well, while not committing to it in any way, the person at Amtrak that I talked to said that irrespective of whether Cardinal goes to St. Louis or not, the changeover to Superliner and to a daily train is likely to happen within the next 12 months. We will know a bit more if things are headed in that direction when the Fall/Winter timetable comes out.

Really? Wow, that was one thing I hadn't heard about. So... within 12 Months, we should be seeing the end of tri-weekly train operations on Amtrak if everything goes according to schedule?

That is awesome news. Did anyone make and suggestion of a consist? I'd tend to think genesis/sleeper/ccc/bag-coach/coach.

 

[wayman]

Really? Wow, that was one thing I hadn't heard about. So... within 12 Months, we should be seeing the end of tri-weekly train operations on Amtrak if everything goes according to schedule?

It may take some folks a few decades to get used to the idea. While discussing travel plans with my parents for their upcoming trip, Dad thought I must have made a mistake -- "the Zephyr is never on Wednesdays!" I reminded him this was one of those things where Amtrak actually improved on the heritage railroads!

 

[jis]

Really? Wow, that was one thing I hadn't heard about. So... within 12 Months, we should be seeing the end of tri-weekly train operations on Amtrak if everything goes according to schedule?
That is awesome news. Did anyone make and suggestion of a consist? I'd tend to think genesis/sleeper/ccc/bag-coach/coach.

I would say we "'could' be seeing" and not "'should' be seeing", since as you know there are always a zillion things that can go wrong even in a best laid out plan, and you can never be sure until the proverbial fat lady sings.

Without divulging more than what I am allowed to say, let me restate that certain changes in the Fall schedule (not directly involving the Cardinal necessarily), if they take place, will indicate what will be the likely time-line and likely consist. So we will have to wait a while before we know anything more definitive. You do realize that they do have to find a few more Supers than are hangin' loose right now, to make this happen. But your guess re: consist above IMHO is as good as any I could make at present.

But the important thing is if that happens it does release the low level consists for use elsewhere. My speculation is that the Viewliners added to taking one more out of reserve will be used to augment either the LSL, which is running very very heavily loaded in Sleepers, or if enough can be found to augment the Star. It's anyone's guess at present.

 

[wayman]

But the important thing is if that happens it does release the low level consists for use elsewhere. My speculation is that the Viewliners added to taking one more out of reserve will be used to augment either the LSL, which is running very very heavily loaded in Sleepers, or if enough can be found to augment the Star. It's anyone's guess at present.

Rather than use the two that they'll get on 66/67? If they take one more out of reserve, they're really squeezed if anything goes wrong...

 

[jis]

Rather than use the two that they'll get on 66/67? If they take one more out of reserve, they're really squeezed if anything goes wrong...

I have not heard any mention of 66/67 in this context.

 

[battalion51]

I spoke with someone very close to the situation, reality, no one (even at Amtrak or FEC) knows how it will pan out in the end. There's been speculation ranging from the Palmetto returning to Florida (probably running the Meteor route with the Meteor going to FEC), to the Sunset coming back and running FEC to Miami, to splitting the train. No one knows anything. The only true definite at this point appears to be that there will be a dedicated fleet of motors that will be captive between for FEC service. Since FEC runs its own cab signal system that the Amtrak cab signal system isn't compliant with there will be dedicated motors for this service similar to Michigan service. You may see this manifest in one of two forms. Either there will be a WAS based fleet that will only be assigned to the FEC trains or there will be an additional power change at JAX. It may end up being easier in the end to do a power change at JAX since this is a refueling location anyway. Also, don't forget while the FEC route is only slightly shorter mileage wise, it is MUCH faster. There is a lot of slow going from JAX-ORL with a lot of curves in there. FEC is very straight, and very fast. It looks highly likely it will happen this time. But like I say every time, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I would say we "'could' be seeing" and not "'should' be seeing", since as you know there are always a zillion things that can go wrong even in a best laid out plan, and you can never be sure until the proverbial fat lady sings.
Without divulging more than what I am allowed to say, let me restate that certain changes in the Fall schedule (not directly involving the Cardinal necessarily), if they take place, will indicate what will be the likely time-line and likely consist. So we will have to wait a while before we know anything more definitive. You do realize that they do have to find a few more Supers than are hangin' loose right now, to make this happen. But your guess re: consist above IMHO is as good as any I could make at present.

But the important thing is if that happens it does release the low level consists for use elsewhere. My speculation is that the Viewliners added to taking one more out of reserve will be used to augment either the LSL, which is running very very heavily loaded in Sleepers, or if enough can be found to augment the Star. It's anyone's guess at present.

Oh, that goes without saying. I still adhere to the belief that nothing runs until wheels turn on tracks carrying revenue.

Its just seems so much better than anything I've been expecting. Also, I happen to be booked on the Cardinal for January 4th outta Chicago. I guess with all that's been going on locally with NJT, I've forgotten that there is one railroad around that isn't screaming service cut. Optimism out of Amtrak isn't something I've seen in a while.

But optimism out of me? I don't think that will ever happen.

 

[jis]

I spoke with someone very close to the situation, reality, no one (even at Amtrak or FEC) knows how it will pan out in the end. There's been speculation ranging from the Palmetto returning to Florida (probably running the Meteor route with the Meteor going to FEC), to the Sunset coming back and running FEC to Miami, to splitting the train. No one knows anything. The only true definite at this point appears to be that there will be a dedicated fleet of motors that will be captive between for FEC service. Since FEC runs its own cab signal system that the Amtrak cab signal system isn't compliant with there will be dedicated motors for this service similar to Michigan service. You may see this manifest in one of two forms. Either there will be a WAS based fleet that will only be assigned to the FEC trains or there will be an additional power change at JAX. It may end up being easier in the end to do a power change at JAX since this is a refueling location anyway. Also, don't forget while the FEC route is only slightly shorter mileage wise, it is MUCH faster. There is a lot of slow going from JAX-ORL with a lot of curves in there. FEC is very straight, and very fast. It looks highly likely it will happen this time. But like I say every time, I'll believe it when I see it.

Good point battalion. That is one reason (the dedicated motors) that I was speculating that there will be a short turn consist (+ engines) that will run just between JAX and MIA and a few cars from the Star and/or Meteor will get tacked onto that sort of consist for running through from NYP down the FEC.

Of course if they decide run an entire train down without splitting I'd think that they will do power switch at JAX just to keep the number of engines in the special sub-fleet equipped for FEC to a minimum.

But somebody from Amtrak or some Florida official told at least one reporter about two trains, which I found interesting since it matches the "split both trains at JAX" scenario. But as you said, what will happen three years from now we will know exactly in three years.

 

[Donctor]

An interesting question. Probably not. But, iirc, the Star runs with one less coach and one less sleeper right now. Adding one of each should be no problem, if there is the need. The biggest negative is how many people between Savannah and Rocky Mount (either via Charleston or Columbia) would no longer be able to reach a certain part of Florida. For instance, if you are in either of those two cities, you can currently go to Tampa. With Delvyrails and my theory, if you live in Columbia, you would no longer have direct access to Orlando or Tampa.
One way to mitigate this would be to have both trains arrive in JAX at the same time for a cross-platform transfer. But that would mean a 2 hour layover for Amtrak's guaranteed connection requirements.

Wait, the Star runs with one less coach? Does the Star have three, or does the Meteor have five?

Theoretically, Amtrak could split a few cars off the Meteor in JAX and run them via Orlando/Tampa, assuming both trains arrive in JAX at roughly the same time. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it would ever happen.

 

[MattW]

One side-thing I've thought about, is could this new FEC service possibly kick Georgia right where it counts and get them running an intercity ATL-JAX or MIA? I'm guessing we don't have the officially unofficial rumors we have for other areas like Florida and New Jersey, but I'm just wondering (more like grasping at whatever straws may or may not truly exist).

 

[VentureForth]

I doubt it. Unlike Florida, Georgia has no real will power to include rail in its master planning. Oh, they'll mention it, but include it in a real, meaningful way? Ha.