Amtrak selling intra NEC seats on SB LD trains

[MattW]

Following a tip on another forum, it appears that after July 20, tickets are being sold on the Long Distance trains southbound. Not all of them, however, right off hand, I don't see the Cardinal or Silver Meteor, none of them are showing for northbound travel (makes sense), and sleepers don't appear to be an option. But the Star, Crescent, Palmetto, and Carolinian now seem to be selling coach seats between any of their stops southbound!

 

[sc_railfan]

Following a tip on another forum, it appears that after July 20, tickets are being sold on the Long Distance trains southbound. Not all of them, however, right off hand, I don't see the Cardinal or Silver Meteor, none of them are showing for northbound travel (makes sense), and sleepers don't appear to be an option. But the Star, Crescent, Palmetto, and Carolinian now seem to be selling coach seats between any of their stops southbound!

Just checked that out and see what you mean, but it seems like the LD trains are at a much higher price

 

[Meat Puppet]

Only thru sept 30, if you want them...

NYP-WAS on the star is $145

NYP-MIA on the star is $141 same date.

 

[Anderson]

Likely a (very smart) pilot program on Amtrak's part. I'd raised this idea on here some time ago, but...

Basically, on most of the LD trains, you've got about a carload of space that gets filled up at or around WAS/ALX. What that means, in turn, is that a car is running empty NYP-WAS when that car could be used for, at the very least, "backup" capacity for the NEC (where ridership is running into blocks). It doesn't hurt that a few of the trains run at pretty good times for NYP-WAS traffic. Moreover, fill that car NYP-WAS at $150/seat and you're looking at $8400/trip (for 56 seats). Achieve a 20% load factor WAS-NYP on that car at that rate over the course of a year and it's half a million to a train's bottom line; a 50% load factor would give you $1.25m. Moreover, some even shorter sales (NYP-BAL, NYP-WIL, and NYP-PHL) can add even more.

However, this move also smacks of shenanigans: Doing this will likely allow Amtrak to pump up ridership on the Star, Crescent, and Cardinal, all of which are off noticeably for FY2013 as far as May (5.4%, 4.6%, and 3.6% respectively). Note that the Meteor, which is basically "breaking even" YTD, is apparently not being sold. If this is successful, it's a "quick fix" for LD ridership for FY13 (presuming the ridership is credited to the LD trains and not to the Regionals). Also note that FY13 ends on...wait for it...Sept. 30.

For what it's worth, the Carolinian was always open for this use SB; NB, not so much, but that's due to reliability issues stemming from being on freight lines for a couple hundred miles prior to hitting WAS.

Honestly, I like this idea...and frankly, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the Meteor or Star hauling one or more coaches down to RVR someday and dropping them there (for return on the next day's trains) if VA can't supplement their slots but ridership keeps rising.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I like the idea as a way for NEC riders to see the difference in seating and perhaps intice them to take an LD trip. I would love to take a short trip in coach to "get the feel" of the LD coach seating. But I wouldn't want to pay a significantly higher fare to do it.

 

[cuppb001]

This "pilot" also provides Diner service on the NEC. Granted its only lunch but except for the Acela, the only dining options are lounges on the Regionals.

 

[jis]

Following a tip on another forum, it appears that after July 20, tickets are being sold on the Long Distance trains southbound. Not all of them, however, right off hand, I don't see the Cardinal or Silver Meteor, none of them are showing for northbound travel (makes sense), and sleepers don't appear to be an option. But the Star, Crescent, Palmetto, and Carolinian now seem to be selling coach seats between any of their stops southbound!

I think they should make seats available northbound too, but perhaps release them for sale only in the last day or two before departure, so that most LD takers have a first dibs. They should also caveat with the possibility of delays. but I don't see any reason why they would not make a free seat available to a walk up for example.

 

[xyzzy]

NB LD trains are free to run early on the NEC (and sometimes do). Can't see how it's possible to handle intra-NEC passengers unless Amtrak abandons the ability to run early.

 

[afigg]

Basically, on most of the LD trains, you've got about a carload of space that gets filled up at or around WAS/ALX. What that means, in turn, is that a car is running empty NYP-WAS when that car could be used for, at the very least, "backup" capacity for the NEC (where ridership is running into blocks). It doesn't hurt that a few of the trains run at pretty good times for NYP-WAS traffic. Moreover, fill that car NYP-WAS at $150/seat and you're looking at $8400/trip (for 56 seats). Achieve a 20% load factor WAS-NYP on that car at that rate over the course of a year and it's half a million to a train's bottom line; a 50% load factor would give you $1.25m. Moreover, some even shorter sales (NYP-BAL, NYP-WIL, and NYP-PHL) can add even more.
However, this move also smacks of shenanigans: Doing this will likely allow Amtrak to pump up ridership on the Star, Crescent, and Cardinal, all of which are off noticeably for FY2013 as far as May (5.4%, 4.6%, and 3.6% respectively). ...

I doubt that Amtrak will make that much revenue and sell that many seats. The NYP-WAS seats are all at high bucket prices, so the market is going to mostly be limited to those who want to ride in Amfleet II seats and short notice ticket sales when all the Regionals and Acelas are at high buckets or sold out. The NYP-WAS trip times are in the same range as the Regionals, so there is no advantage in that aspect.
The sale of the seats on the LD train will require careful management and limiting of the number of seats to be sold to not block sales of seats to destinations south of the NEC. If they sell 15 to 25 seats between NYP-WAS, that could lead to $2K or $3K in revenue per southbound train. Another one of the many efforts Amtrak is taking to increase revenue for the LD trains.

Whether they will assign the revenue & ridership count to the NEC or the LD train, we will see. With the pressure to reduce the losses for the LD trains, it certainly would help the eastern LD trains if the revenue from the NYP-WAS sales were allocated to the LD train service. An argument can be made that these seats and service options are only available because it is an LD train, so the sales can be allocated differently from the Regionals.

The symbols on the reservation site show checked baggage, so there may be some who book the LD train from NYP to BAL or WAS so they can check their bags through. Expensive way to check your bags however.

If the LD seats are only available through September 30, that indicates this is an experiment. But Amtrak if keeps this new option, may want to limit NYP-WAS LD train sales too far in advance to keep the seats open. Limit sales to 60 days out for example.

 

[the_traveler]

I would not be opposed to adding a car and "train number" just for the NYP-WAS (or RVR) passengers. It could by like 991 and 91, much like 21/321/421 or 8/28/808 now. Otherwise someone going PHL-WPK may not have a seat available because it's occupied by a NYP-WIL passenger.

 

[gmushial]

I like the idea as a way for NEC riders to see the difference in seating and perhaps intice them to take an LD trip. I would love to take a short trip in coach to "get the feel" of the LD coach seating. But I wouldn't want to pay a significantly higher fare to do it.

Absolutely have to agree.

 

[lepearso]

This is a great idea that will need some fine-tuning (which is why it's in an experimental phase).

Here you have a way to boost capacity on the NEC without additional equipment or trains. It's a way to fill some empty seats on the long distance trains and give their revenue and ridership a little boost. And it also provides Amtrak with another product to sell in the northeast - long distance seats with access to a full-service diner plus checked baggage service.

I would expect Amtrak to limit the number of seats that can be sold between NYP and WAS - just enough to make a good sell but not so many that long-distance passengers are blocked.

 

[AlanB]

However, this move also smacks of shenanigans: Doing this will likely allow Amtrak to pump up ridership on the Star, Crescent, and Cardinal, all of which are off noticeably for FY2013 as far as May (5.4%, 4.6%, and 3.6% respectively). Note that the Meteor, which is basically "breaking even" YTD, is apparently not being sold..

While it is possible that Amtrak could decide to do that, they most certainly can properly track things so as to not boost the numbers. Just like the track what happens say on the Lynchburger so as to account for ridership & revenue south of DC vs. north of DC; they can even more easily do the same for this since there would be no through passengers in this equation riding through DC. Either you are are NEC pax or a LD passenger.

 

[Anderson]

However, this move also smacks of shenanigans: Doing this will likely allow Amtrak to pump up ridership on the Star, Crescent, and Cardinal, all of which are off noticeably for FY2013 as far as May (5.4%, 4.6%, and 3.6% respectively). Note that the Meteor, which is basically "breaking even" YTD, is apparently not being sold..

While it is possible that Amtrak could decide to do that, they most certainly can properly track things so as to not boost the numbers. Just like the track what happens say on the Lynchburger so as to account for ridership & revenue south of DC vs. north of DC; they can even more easily do the same for this since there would be no through passengers in this equation riding through DC. Either you are are NEC pax or a LD passenger.

Yes, but given that LD trains are where all the criticism comes, would Amtrak want to keep the split "straight"? Handled "sloppily", $2500/train (I was assuming a lower load factor on purpose, btw, to account for the fact that all seats won't sell) would be $912,500/yr...or about a 2-3% improvement in revenue and an additional 6,000-7,000 riders for each daily train.

As to NB, I do think they should try to open up WAS/ALX to those sales (albeit with moving some of the pad in there to north of WAS), but beyond that I like the LD trains being free to "open up" on the NEC.

 

[NE933]

Good idea, but my worry is won't the imbalance (southbound only is for sale) create crowding on northbounds? Ain't there some way to sell a ticket on any NB LD train that shows up so that the late ones won't hold back a ticketed passenger for hours, maybe by phoning in or seeing an agent to give a change / pass code?

 

[railiner]

I have some mixed feelings about this...while I applaud Amtrak for finding a creative way to boost revenue and ridership, etc., if I was a long distance rider on said trains, I don't think I would like all the 'corridor' passengers taking up space in the lounge and dining cars, that would change the whole dynamic of the long distance train experience.

I bet the conductors working these trains won't like all the additional work this would bring to them....currently, at least northbound, the tickets have all been lifted prior to WAS, and the WAS-NYP conductor is sort of 'just along for the ride'.....

For years, Amtrak, and the private railroads before, used to place lots of traffic restrictions on premier thru trains to prevent short distance riders.....

 

[Anderson]

Here's the thing: Coming out of NYP, there's a lot of traffic on the LD trains, but there's also a lot of space. It's like when you look at the numbers along the Tri-rail corridor in FL and realize that it's R/D only, so trains are seriously emptying out as you go through WPB and FLL. Same thing at WAS, BAL, and WIL (and PHL, though I think you can make a better case for restricting ridership PHL-NYP than WAS-NYP).

Pulling into WAS, the Silvers have lots of space left, since you have substantial net boardings at WAS and, to a lesser extent, ALX. You've also frequently got open seats that (for example) get filled at RVR or that're just open because it's a slow day. This is not a small number of seats; my best guess on the Meteor is that it never falls below about 30-40 seats open before WAS, and probably very rarely falls below 60. Moreover, if the train sells out further on down the line, Amtrak could arguably throw additional seats into this "pool".

Also, there's another wrinkle in here: In one of the PIPs, Amtrak discussed running the Meteor to BOS. Ticket sales lockouts WAS-NYP can be justified, but if they were to do that? Freezing seats open for 6-8 hours of a run would make no business sense. BOS-NYP would make some sense, and some other "oddball" rules might also come into play to maximize revenue and load factors while not freezing those boarding at NYP (i.e. allowing a limited amount of ticket sales within the BOS-NYP corridor but putting some limits on boardings at New Haven and Stamford for intra-corridor traffic, or placing a "mileage minimum" on tickets to be sold within the NEC at about 200 miles).

Anyhow...assuming logical behavior, Amtrak wants to be able to have as many seats full at all times as possible. This means not forcing LD trains to run largely empty out of NYP when the NEC is already slamming into all sorts of capacity issues at times.

 

[railiner]

Okay then, using that logic, eliminate all traffic restrictions....sell NWK -NYP, ANA -LAX, NPV-CHI, etc., irregardless of commuter trains normally handling that traffic. Let Amtrak try to capture every possible bit of traffic....

 

[Ryan]

Don't be ridiculous.

There's plenty of room for a reasonable middle ground that increases revenue without blocking out longer trips, which is why Amtrak is experimenting with this to see when they can accomplish.

 

[railiner]

I was just trying to make a point--didn't really mean for them to go to that extreme. I still think that the Crescent, the Meteor, and the Star should keep their restriction,

Any other like the Palmetto, or Carolinian opening up wouldn't bother me....

 

[Anderson]

Okay then, using that logic, eliminate all traffic restrictions....sell NWK -NYP, ANA -LAX, NPV-CHI, etc., irregardless of commuter trains normally handling that traffic. Let Amtrak try to capture every possible bit of traffic....

If this was done with proper restrictions to avoid blocking out longer-distance traffic, I would support such a move being executed carefully. Just remember...you don't want to have 200 riders going NWK-NYP freezing out traffic WAS-NYP or MIA-NYP. If somebody is willing to drop $50 to go 20 miles and the space won't sell, don't stop them. As a quick example, the New Haven would sell you a ticket from RTE-BOS back in the 60s, and it was very often possible to buy a ticket within commuter territory on many trains that made those stops (the exceptions being top-tier trains like the Super Chief).

Also, ANA-LAX is generally a legal city pair. Just checked. And when you're getting up towards an hour or more on Amtrak, that often means substantially more time on an all-stop commuter train, which means that both in terms of comfort and speed, you have a perfectly valid reason to take Amtrak.

 

[afigg]

Here's the thing: Coming out of NYP, there's a lot of traffic on the LD trains, but there's also a lot of space. It's like when you look at the numbers along the Tri-rail corridor in FL and realize that it's R/D only, so trains are seriously emptying out as you go through WPB and FLL. Same thing at WAS, BAL, and WIL (and PHL, though I think you can make a better case for restricting ridership PHL-NYP than WAS-NYP).
Pulling into WAS, the Silvers have lots of space left, since you have substantial net boardings at WAS and, to a lesser extent, ALX. ...

WAS is the second busiest station in the Amtrak system, so it makes sense that there would be empty seats between NYP and WAS for the LD trains heading south. I'm wondering if the proportions of passengers boarding the southbound LD trains at NYP, PHL, BAL, WAS has changed over the past 30-40 years. The DC metro area has grown significantly in population and the DC Metro system provides direct transit access to WAS and ALX that did not exist back when Amtrak started (or when the railroads ran the LD trains). Would be interesting to see the passenger boarding/alighting numbers for NYP, WAS, PHL for the year 30, 20 years ago versus today. NYP is still easily the dominant station in the Amtrak system, but is it as dominant as it was 20 or 30 years ago?
If a larger proportion of southbound LD passengers are getting on at WAS or ALX than was the case 20, 30 years ago or even pre-Amtrak, then selling a limited # of seats between NYP to WAS is in acknowledgment of the ridership boarding shift.

 

[railiner]

Okay then, using that logic, eliminate all traffic restrictions....sell NWK -NYP, ANA -LAX, NPV-CHI, etc., irregardless of commuter trains normally handling that traffic. Let Amtrak try to capture every possible bit of traffic....

If this was done with proper restrictions to avoid blocking out longer-distance traffic, I would support such a move being executed carefully. Just remember...you don't want to have 200 riders going NWK-NYP freezing out traffic WAS-NYP or MIA-NYP. If somebody is willing to drop $50 to go 20 miles and the space won't sell, don't stop them. As a quick example, the New Haven would sell you a ticket from RTE-BOS back in the 60s, and it was very often possible to buy a ticket within commuter territory on many trains that made those stops (the exceptions being top-tier trains like the Super Chief).

Also, ANA-LAX is generally a legal city pair. Just checked. And when you're getting up towards an hour or more on Amtrak, that often means substantially more time on an all-stop commuter train, which means that both in terms of comfort and speed, you have a perfectly valid reason to take Amtrak.

Okay, I meant to use Fullerton - LAX as that example....

 

[MattW]

I wonder how exactly this will work though. The simple solution is to just open up a number of seats and sell what sells. The more advanced solution, is to sell the seat, only after a seat from that station to off the corridor has been sold. So a seat BAL-ATL, opens up a seat NYP-BAL, or PHL-BAL which in the latter case still gives a NYP-PHL seat. I don't know if Arrow is capable of that or not though.

 

[NE933]

Another thing I just thought about, that ought to compel Amtrak to sell space on NB LD trains is the timing. Unlike their SB counterparts, where a train must be held at the station if early because things are working better than normal for that day, the Northbounds often make timings that are not far off the Regionals, owing to their not stopping at so many stations. The LD's on the NECorridor are very effective express trains, and with Viewliner II - induced speed limit increases to 125 on the horizon, it would be foolish to not parlay this into greater revenue, by giving passengers more capacity and options. The only issue of course is that if a NB arrives at DC too early, the Operations Center would have to make a decision to either hold it so that anyone booked further up the line won't be passed by, or perhaps have them take another train that has space. Since seating and boarding is real time, there's no reason I can see that can't resolve it.