Amtrak says it will not run trains on routes without PTC

[JoeBas]

It appears the Trains Newswire report has been updated with a response from Amtrak:

‘Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari tells Trains News Wire, "where PTC is not implemented and operational, it is expected that nearly all carriers will qualify for an alternative PTC implementation schedule under law.

"For those carriers and routes operating under an extension or under an FRA-approved exemption, Amtrak is performing risk analyses and developing strategies for enhancing safety on a route-by-route basis to ensure that there is a single level of safety across the Amtrak network.

"For those very limited routes where a host may not achieve an alternative schedule by year’s end, Amtrak will suspend service and may seek alternative modes of service until such routes come into compliance."’

So it sounds to me that it really is just about the SWC.

That sounds reasonable to me.

Obviously, I’m not a fan of the entire SWC debacle, but hopefully this will put some fears to rest - for the time being.

Amtrak: We're going to cancel the SWC.

Amfans: WHAT??? You can't do that!!!

Amtrak: Fine, then we're also going to cancel everything that doesn't have PTC.

Amfans: WHOOOOOAAAAAAHHHHHH, Hold on a second?!?!?!?!? You crazy buggers, you can't do that!!!!

Amtrak: Fine, then we'll just cancel the SWC.

Amfans: Okay, that's more reasonable!

Amtrak: *sotto voce* Suckers...

 

[MikeM]

It appears the Trains Newswire report has been updated with a response from Amtrak:

‘Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari tells Trains News Wire, "where PTC is not implemented and operational, it is expected that nearly all carriers will qualify for an alternative PTC implementation schedule under law.

"For those carriers and routes operating under an extension or under an FRA-approved exemption, Amtrak is performing risk analyses and developing strategies for enhancing safety on a route-by-route basis to ensure that there is a single level of safety across the Amtrak network.

"For those very limited routes where a host may not achieve an alternative schedule by year’s end, Amtrak will suspend service and may seek alternative modes of service until such routes come into compliance."’

So it sounds to me that it really is just about the SWC.

Before everyone gets their togas out of the closet for the beer bash, keep in mind only two weeks or so there was significant discussions coming out on several sites that Amtrak was questioning UP about rerouting the CZ through beautiful southern Wyoming in lieu of Colorado. I think the disclaimer by Amtrak's spokesperson is not that legitimate. Sorry if I sound like I'm paranoid, but it has to be pretty obvious at this point that Amtrak management hates LD trains and would dearly love to see as many of them die a early death as possible. We need to all stay alert, keep writing our congressional reps to ask them to investigate Amtrak financial reporting and management actions, and do something about the current management team in place.

 

[cpotisch]

It appears the Trains Newswire report has been updated with a response from Amtrak:

‘Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari tells Trains News Wire, "where PTC is not implemented and operational, it is expected that nearly all carriers will qualify for an alternative PTC implementation schedule under law.

"For those carriers and routes operating under an extension or under an FRA-approved exemption, Amtrak is performing risk analyses and developing strategies for enhancing safety on a route-by-route basis to ensure that there is a single level of safety across the Amtrak network.

"For those very limited routes where a host may not achieve an alternative schedule by year’s end, Amtrak will suspend service and may seek alternative modes of service until such routes come into compliance."’

So it sounds to me that it really is just about the SWC.

That sounds reasonable to me.

Obviously, I’m not a fan of the entire SWC debacle, but hopefully this will put some fears to rest - for the time being.

Amtrak: We're going to cancel the SWC.

Amfans: WHAT??? You can't do that!!!

Amtrak: Fine, then we're also going to cancel everything that doesn't have PTC.

Amfans: WHOOOOOAAAAAAHHHHHH, Hold on a second?!?!?!?!? You crazy buggers, you can't do that!!!!

Amtrak: Fine, then we'll just cancel the SWC.

Amfans: Okay, that's more reasonable!

Amtrak: *sotto voce* Suckers...

Best post of the week.

 

[Skyline]

This is a manufactured crisis, with an airline guy making ultimatums about the operation of trains. Anderson created this crisis. He needs to resolve it by delaying implementation indefinitely, or he should be fired. Those Amtrak board members who are complicit, ditto.

 

[lordsigma]

I have tried to have an open mind over the last few months, but it is becoming harder to not get disgusted with this current Amtrak regime. Whether this is really serious or if it is manipulation of Congress or conflicted communication within Amtrak it is getting ridiculous. It's hard not to conclude that this regime is trying to undermind their own organization to break it down. I know there are some on this (and other) boards who are in agreement with some of Anderson's positions and feel that the national network is inappropriate with modern air travel and I know that some railfans are also planefans and many when given a choice would say they are bigger fans of air when it comes to passenger travel and everyone has a right to their opinions on that. However as someone who has major problems with air travel to the point where I no longer fly, rail travel is an alternative to having to drive everywhere I want to go and there are others in that same category that either despise or can't fly for whatever reason. Yes its true, the world isn't going to end if Amtrak discontinues the LD network. It wouldn't even end if it folded altogether NEC and all. Air travel and other modes would easily take up the slack. The number of people that would be seriously really legitimately inconvenienced is small. But those of us that would be negatively effected do deserve a voice in this situation. Everyone has a right to their opinion on this and I respect the opinions of those that oppose Amtrak in its entirety or aspects of it for fiscal responsibility or other reasons, but I think the proper forum for this debate is at re-authorization time and I do not agree with all these moves by Amtrak's board and executives to try to force a change of Amtrak's mission even though their mission has been set by congress.

 

[bretton88]

It appears the Trains Newswire report has been updated with a response from Amtrak:

‘Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari tells Trains News Wire, "where PTC is not implemented and operational, it is expected that nearly all carriers will qualify for an alternative PTC implementation schedule under law.

"For those carriers and routes operating under an extension or under an FRA-approved exemption, Amtrak is performing risk analyses and developing strategies for enhancing safety on a route-by-route basis to ensure that there is a single level of safety across the Amtrak network.

"For those very limited routes where a host may not achieve an alternative schedule by year’s end, Amtrak will suspend service and may seek alternative modes of service until such routes come into compliance."’

So it sounds to me that it really is just about the SWC.

Before everyone gets their togas out of the closet for the beer bash, keep in mind only two weeks or so there was significant discussions coming out on several sites that Amtrak was questioning UP about rerouting the CZ through beautiful southern Wyoming in lieu of Colorado. I think the disclaimer by Amtrak's spokesperson is not that legitimate. Sorry if I sound like I'm paranoid, but it has to be pretty obvious at this point that Amtrak management hates LD trains and would dearly love to see as many of them die a early death as possible. We need to all stay alert, keep writing our congressional reps to ask them to investigate Amtrak financial reporting and management actions, and do something about the current management team in place.

I'm not so sure a Wyoming reroute would be bad for the Zephyr. You get a really nice Denver to SLC corridor train from that, in addition to the northern front range cities.

 

[railiner]

Some of these routes are not without alternatives. Vermont and Maine could try to seek other operators for their service if Amtrak won't operate them. My only question is whether such alternative options exist.

That's an interesting question...could a company like Pan Am Ry, take over (or even want to...I think, not), the operation of the Downeaster's, if Amtrak refused to run it?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Some of these routes are not without alternatives. Vermont and Maine could try to seek other operators for their service if Amtrak won't operate them. My only question is whether such alternative options exist.

That's an interesting question...could a company like Pan Am Ry, take over (or even want to...I think, not), the operation of the Downeaster's, if Amtrak refused to run it?

Yes. BNSF operates the Northstar in Minnesota and one of the Metra Lines out of Chicago, Union Pacific operates 3 Metra Lines, Bombardier operates a couple of the MARC lines, etc.

 

[cpotisch]

Some of these routes are not without alternatives. Vermont and Maine could try to seek other operators for their service if Amtrak won't operate them. My only question is whether such alternative options exist.

That's an interesting question...could a company like Pan Am Ry, take over (or even want to...I think, not), the operation of the Downeaster's, if Amtrak refused to run it?

Yes. BNSF operates the Northstar in Minnesota and one of the Metra Lines out of Chicago, Union Pacific operates 3 Metra Lines, Bombardier operates a couple of the MARC lines, etc.

Sorry, I'm a little confused. BNSF, Union Pacific, and Bombardier actually operate those respective trains with their own employees?

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Some of these routes are not without alternatives. Vermont and Maine could try to seek other operators for their service if Amtrak won't operate them. My only question is whether such alternative options exist.

That's an interesting question...could a company like Pan Am Ry, take over (or even want to...I think, not), the operation of the Downeaster's, if Amtrak refused to run it?

Yes. BNSF operates the Northstar in Minnesota and one of the Metra Lines out of Chicago, Union Pacific operates 3 Metra Lines, Bombardier operates a couple of the MARC lines, etc.

Sorry, I'm a little confused. BNSF, Union Pacific, and Bombardier actually operate those respective trains with their own employees?

Yes. A typical passenger would be unlikely to notice the difference, however. On the BNSF line in the Chicago area, some cars even have a BNSF logo next to the door and/or the railroad's name printed between the two levels of windows on the outside. BNSF locomotives can also be frequently seen switching in the Metra yard adjacent to the Amtrak yard. UP operates all of the lines out of Ogilvie Transportation Center (formerly Northwestern Station), and there are various signs of such throughout the station. While no rolling stock bears UP lettering or logos, UP locomotives are often present in and around the station switching. Crews on all four of these lines appear to be Metra employees, but are actually employed by the freight company.
Photo credit: http://subwaynut.com/chicago/metra/bnsf_railway/stone_avenue/index.php

 

[keelhauled]

Hard to operate anything if you don't have the equipment, and neither Maine nor Vermont owns the rolling stock for their respective services.

 

[lordsigma]

Some of these routes are not without alternatives. Vermont and Maine could try to seek other operators for their service if Amtrak won't operate them. My only question is whether such alternative options exist.

That's an interesting question...could a company like Pan Am Ry, take over (or even want to...I think, not), the operation of the Downeaster's, if Amtrak refused to run it?

There's probably a couple alternatives that could work in some these instances. As an example involving the affected service closest to me, MassDOT could approach CTDOT about having its CTrail commuter operator replace Amtrak on their "knowledge corridor" service north of Springfield, MA. Expansion of this service was just announced a couple months ago with Amtrak as the operator so this would nix it as well as killing the existing Vermonter service. CTrail could probably run this pilot program the state is planning and restore afternoon service that was provided by the Vermonter. However it would probably take some time for CTDOT to be able to accommodate it as they'd probably need more rolling stock and would need to build a train layover facility somewhere in Mass (probably at Springfield.) And this setup wouldn't help Vermont.

 

[fredmcain]

Sounds like Amtrak's board is just plain intent on killing those 8 trains, since the FRA has exempted those sections from having to have PTC installed.

jb

J.B.,

I don’t pretend to know how all this is going to turn out – I don’t think any of us do – but I can say this: The Amtrak board has now succeeded in making even more political enemies and that quite possibly includes me.

Let me make this very clear: As an American I do not and will not support an Amtrak “system” that consists of a few widely-scattered corridors in diverse places. And why should I? I will NEVER use them without the rest of the LD system. I mean, it’s not even an option for me. If I can’t get to California on the train, why would I ride on a California corridor train?

The senate has just passed a huge Amtrak appropriation – possibly the biggest in Amtrak’s history. Although the House has yet to pass it, if we assume that they do, what the heck is Amtrak going to do with all that money if most of the system is gone? It makes no sense.

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that Congress should completely “zero out” all federal funding if Amtrak goes ahead with this lame-brain scheme. They should get no more federal dollars, nichts, zip, nada!

As I have tried to suggest a couple of times on this group, the time may have finally come to find some other way to save these services – without Amtrak. I think I could still support an Amtrak “system” consisting of diverse corridors if they were all interconnected by a national system – run by someone else. That, in a way, was how the old Class 1 passenger trains operated. They at least made an effort to make connections.

Note, I posted the above lines on the Southwest Chief thread but felt like they'd be appropriate here, too.

Regards,

Fred M. Cain,

Topeka, IN, NARP member

 

[NativeSon5859]

Sorry but I don’t have a problem with Magliari’s response. Frankly I think Bob Johnston’s post was a “these trains are history” post. Time for the outrage to commence!

I’m writing my congressmen/women, I’m writing leaders at Amtrak, but I’m also not going to stop booking on these trains or just fall into a state of mass hysteria over a Trains magazine article that should have come with a disclaimer from the get go.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Hard to operate anything if you don't have the equipment, and neither Maine nor Vermont owns the rolling stock for their respective services.

Im sure Ed Ellis is working up a quote for them! ;-)

 

[Palmetto]

Some of these routes are not without alternatives. Vermont and Maine could try to seek other operators for their service if Amtrak won't operate them. My only question is whether such alternative options exist.

That's an interesting question...could a company like Pan Am Ry, take over (or even want to...I think, not), the operation of the Downeaster's, if Amtrak refused to run it?

Yes. BNSF operates the Northstar in Minnesota and one of the Metra Lines out of Chicago, Union Pacific operates 3 Metra Lines, Bombardier operates a couple of the MARC lines, etc.

For the Downeaster, though, there is the matter of procuring equipment. That won't be easy.

 

[jis]

I think equipment will be an issue for both the Downeaster and for the Vermont trains, and in addition access to relevant stations at the south end will potentially be in issue for the Vermont trains too. No easy solutions no matter how many examples people come up with of private operators operating passenger trains under contract

 

[chrsjrcj]

Remember Baghdad Bob? That is about as much credibility as I give Amtrak PR.

 

[jis]

Apparently Downeaster already has an agreement with Amtrak to continue operating the Downeaster and there is no plan to install PTC since the segment is PTC Exempt

https://bangordailynews.com/2018/08/28/news/state/downeaster-train-service-not-in-jeopardy-going-into-2019-rail-authority-says/

So much for Trains Mag's list.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Dont count an EEE type operation out of the question in the not so distant future. Its obvious Amtrak doesnt want to operate some (or any) of the LD trains.

Give the entire SWC subsidy to a private operator, and since the sleepers, coaches and diners are public property make Amtrak lease them out for a dollar year. Mandate the trains be allowed to run on the previous Amtrak routes. For 100 million someone could make it work especially without as much as I hate to say it, union wages.

The union isnt the problem its Mgmt but non union would help an upstart. Say what you want about EEE but his employees were excellent.

Adding on to this. If Amtrak actually saw money going somewhere else they might change their tune. I think Anderson is thinking he can cut the national network and still get 1.9 from congress.

 

[fredmcain]

Dont count an EEE type operation out of the question in the not so distant future. Its obvious Amtrak doesnt want to operate some (or any) of the LD trains.

Give the entire SWC subsidy to a private operator, and since the sleepers, coaches and diners are public property make Amtrak lease them out for a dollar year. Mandate the trains be allowed to run on the previous Amtrak routes. For 100 million someone could make it work especially without as much as I hate to say it, union wages.

The union isnt the problem its Mgmt but non union would help an upstart. Say what you want about EEE but his employees were excellent.

Adding on to this. If Amtrak actually saw money going somewhere else they might change their tune. I think Anderson is thinking he can cut the national network and still get 1.9 from congress.

Dear "Flyer",

I like your idea. What the heck? I know that a lot of passenger train supporters would not go along with this 'cause I think they view it as "high risk". So what? It appears to me that the current path we're on is high risk.

regards,

FMC

 

[Maglev]

I just did a quick check on re-scheduling my January Texas Eagle trip, and a Bedroom is $1,000 more on an alternate date in December. I guess I'll take my chances that this train is not canceled.

It is my general sense that there is diffuse but widespread support in Congress for Amtrak's long-distance network.

 

[RPC]

<snip/>

The senate has just passed a huge Amtrak appropriation – possibly the biggest in Amtrak’s history. Although the House has yet to pass it, if we assume that they do, what the heck is Amtrak going to do with all that money if most of the system is gone? It makes no sense.

<snip/>

Regards,

Fred M. Cain,

Topeka, IN, NARP member

Just to comment on this particular statement: given that (per Thirdrail7) the NEC has a $40 billion dollar backlog of deferred maintenance, I don't think an LD-less Amtrak would have any trouble swallowing up a couple billion!

But, getting back to the matter at hand, has the present Amtrak management taken this into consideration? The money required to maintain the LD network is dwarfed by the infrastructure needs of the NEC, and I strongly doubt the average Congresscritter is going to support Amtrak if his/her district loses a train. The shiny new high-speed trainsets won't do any good if a Hudson tunnel floods or the Susquehanna bridge falls into the water. The historic "quid pro quo" has been that roughly half the subsidy goes to the NEC and half to the rest of Amtrak - I don't think I'd risk disturbing that.

 

[Skyline]

Anderson was quoted as being interested in, earlier this year, something I think he termed an "experiential" train. I took that to mean a higher-end transcon train like the Canadian. But he obviously has no use for a daily connected long distance network. At best, under his "leadership," we might wind up with a weekly or twice-weekly "City of Everywhere" train with the rolling stock and amenities most of us dream about.

So that would mean several high-density corridors, unconnected, and a rolling amusement park for wealthy adults. And that's how this bunch thinks it will Make America Great Again.

 

[jis]

From RPA

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/releases/amtrak-statement-refutes-trains-ptc-article/

Unfortunately, I think what just happened is that Trains Magazine just lost credibility as a source of news.