Amtrak new single level equipment

[jis]

JIS, the ALP-46As are German. I don't think Amtrak could buy them.

As were the AEM-7s Swedish, and the Acelas French/Canadian. All that they have to do is figure out a way to bring them in knocked down condition and assemble them in the US with some requisite amount of US sourced parts, or any of 15 other possibilities of dealing with the misguided build American requirement the main contribution of which is cost escalation and delivery delays (OK I have just put my double-charmed Chainmail on - for those who are D&D aficionados )

 

[jis]

If you generate DC and use a solid state inverter, it should be possible to get 60 hz power as long as the prime mover is running above a certain speed, instead of requiring that it run at a very specific speed as is required when the frequency of the alternating current is directly related to the speed at which the prime mover is rotating.

Joel, in this day and age of power electronics, I doubt anyone uses the engine speed to govern the frequency of power delivered in a mobile platform like a locomotive. Typically it is cost of maintenance that governs what will be used. DC generators are more maintenance intensive than AC ones due to all the commutator rings and what nots that go into them. Typically they will use an AC generator and then create DC out of it for link, and then run electronic inverters for creating AC of whatever sort is necessary by the consumer.

 

[jis]

I thought part of the excuse with the limitations of the Acela couplers might have had something to do with curves, and if I recall correctly the Shinkansen operates on an alignment that was originally constructed for the Shinkansen, which might mean the curves are less tight over there.

That's exactly the problem, my understanding is that the range of left to right motion is limited by the design and therefore a higher speeds and with tilting turned on, the couplers would bang into the frame.

Is tilting an issue? I thought the power heads in Acelas did not tilt. Am I remembering wrong?

My understanding is that someone goofed in specing the sideward play that was needed in the Acela couplers.

 

[jis]

Except that they also run some TGVs in two-train pairs connected up exactly as you describe.
Don't know if the connection can be made in less than 10 minutes, though.

Yes, been there seen that. The TGVs can do this in less than 10 minutes too.The fact that they have modified Scharfenberg couplers helps a lot since no one has to go connecting up the control lines, brake lines etc. etc. separately. All gets connected in a single shot.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Well what's wrong with the MP units coming out of Boise? They seem like great units to me, especially the higher horsepower MP40 GO is getting.

They don't run on Catenary, they aren't dual-mode, and they probably don't fit through the tunnels at NYP or Baltimore.

Also, they generate greenhouse gas emisions and require the use of petroleum, and most of the petroleum we use in the US has to be imported because that is a type of fuel that we don't have anywhere near enough of domestically. And they're probably a lot louder than the electrics, which might be an issue if you ever want to expand rail service through neighborhoods that aren't used to putting up with the noise.

(I've visited a home whose backyard abuts the ROW used by the Downeaster and MBTA Lowell Line. The noise from the diesels in the house is pretty loud, IIRC to the point where if you're speaking in a normal speaking voice before the train approaches such that you can be heard, the train will probably make your voice inaudible if you continue speaking at the same volume while the train passes. I think this may even happen when all the windows are closed. I suppose it's possible that some of the newer diesels are quiter than the old converted freight locomotives the MBTA uses, but I was under the impression that new electrics are still quieter than new diesels.)

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

If you generate DC and use a solid state inverter, it should be possible to get 60 hz power as long as the prime mover is running above a certain speed, instead of requiring that it run at a very specific speed as is required when the frequency of the alternating current is directly related to the speed at which the prime mover is rotating.

Joel, in this day and age of power electronics, I doubt anyone uses the engine speed to govern the frequency of power delivered in a mobile platform like a locomotive. Typically it is cost of maintenance that governs what will be used. DC generators are more maintenance intensive than AC ones due to all the commutator rings and what nots that go into them. Typically they will use an AC generator and then create DC out of it for link, and then run electronic inverters for creating AC of whatever sort is necessary by the consumer.

My understanding, though, is that the P42s do need to run at particular speeds to generate electricity, and that there are probably two such speeds, and switching between those speeds is probably why HEP will sometimes drop out for 10-15 seconds (or something) when a train parks on a siding, and then drop out again for a similar length of time shortly before the train resumes moving.

An interesting question is whether retrofitting modern AC->DC->AC conversion to the P42s would save enough fuel to cover the installation costs.

 

[jis]

The Acela cars have four beams running the length of the carbody to help meet Tier II buff strength requirements. You can see the ends of the crash posts in this photo. Adding stairs wouldn't be possible with the lower posts.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/amtk10003.jpg

VT. I agree that adding a traditional stairwell would not be possible. What they do in TGVs is have external extension stairs that pop out from the cars as the door opens. No break in sill, but there are stairs that enable easy boarding from the European mid-height platforms using those extension stairs.

 

[jis]

My understanding, though, is that the P42s do need to run at particular speeds to generate electricity, and that there are probably two such speeds, and switching between those speeds is probably why HEP will sometimes drop out for 10-15 seconds (or something) when a train parks on a siding, and then drop out again for a similar length of time shortly before the train resumes moving.
An interesting question is whether retrofitting modern AC->DC->AC conversion to the P42s would save enough fuel to cover the installation costs.

Well, even if the exact match between rpm and frequency is not required, a diesel engine does have to run at a certain minimum speed to generate enough raw power to convert to electricity. I am not sure exactly what method is used in P42s. They are afterall kind of old as far as technology goes too.

OTOH, the P42 does not have to scream along like the F40s had to, which suggest to me that they are just running it at minimum rpm required to produce the amount of power that is converted to HEP.

 

[jis]

Well what's wrong with the MP units coming out of Boise? They seem like great units to me, especially the higher horsepower MP40 GO is getting.

They don't run on Catenary, they aren't dual-mode, and they probably don't fit through the tunnels at NYP or Baltimore.

They most certainly do not fit through the New York tunnels. Heck even NJT's PL42's, which have a much smaller form-factor, do not fit through the New York tunnels.

As far as New York tunnels go - remember 14'6". That is the max height that will fit through there, after one has done a bit of shaving around the top corners and such for an 85' long car. Locomotives being a bit to quite a bit shorter in length, can manage to get away with considerable less shaving around the top corners. The dual mode will be 75' long and the body already comes with top corner shavings in its basic design anyway.

 

[AlanB]

I thought part of the excuse with the limitations of the Acela couplers might have had something to do with curves, and if I recall correctly the Shinkansen operates on an alignment that was originally constructed for the Shinkansen, which might mean the curves are less tight over there.

That's exactly the problem, my understanding is that the range of left to right motion is limited by the design and therefore a higher speeds and with tilting turned on, the couplers would bang into the frame.

Is tilting an issue? I thought the power heads in Acelas did not tilt. Am I remembering wrong?

My understanding is that someone goofed in specing the sideward play that was needed in the Acela couplers.

You're correct Jishnu, the power cars don't tilt. It was early morning and I wasn't really paying attention, but I do know that the range of coupler motion isn't enough to allow the train to operate normally around curves.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I thought part of the excuse with the limitations of the Acela couplers might have had something to do with curves, and if I recall correctly the Shinkansen operates on an alignment that was originally constructed for the Shinkansen, which might mean the curves are less tight over there.

And the British and some European rails were not. Thus our best model for HSR comes from across the Atlantic.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I thought part of the excuse with the limitations of the Acela couplers might have had something to do with curves, and if I recall correctly the Shinkansen operates on an alignment that was originally constructed for the Shinkansen, which might mean the curves are less tight over there.

And the British and some European rails were not.

Are there any 186 MPH+ trains anywhere in the world that, outside of major cities, operate on alignments that were not originally designed for high speed rail?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Just received pointers to the spec sheet of the ALP46A from Bombardier. You can see it at:
http://www.br146.de/revisionen_daten/ALP-4...C_Sept08_en.pdf

Here is something that Amtrak could order off the shelf to meet some of its electric locomotive needs on the NEC.

While at it they could even consider taking a look at the dual-mode from Bombardier too. The spec sheet can be found at:

http://www.br146.de/revisionen_daten/DualP...C_Sept08_en.pdf

NJT has 27 on order and options on 33 more. AMT in Montreal is ordering some number of them too. These could be used for through running Springfield and Richmond trains onto the electrified NEC, incurring minimal delay at New Haven and Washington DC respectively.

It will all cost an arm and a leg though.

JIS, the ALP-46As are German. I don't think Amtrak could buy them.

well what american locomotive company's are there. does GE still make locos. ALCO just makes the prime movers. they don't make the whole locomotive. there hasn't been any new passenger locos built in america besides commuter engines.

The HHP-8s were built in America and designed in Canada with help from various places.

JIS, the ALP-46As are German. I don't think Amtrak could buy them.

As were the AEM-7s Swedish, and the Acelas French/Canadian. All that they have to do is figure out a way to bring them in knocked down condition and assemble them in the US with some requisite amount of US sourced parts, or any of 15 other possibilities of dealing with the misguided build American requirement the main contribution of which is cost escalation and delivery delays (OK I have just put my double-charmed Chainmail on - for those who are D&D aficionados )

The AEM-7s are NOT Sweedish. They are based on a Sweedish design, but the body is Budd, and most of the electrics were done by Electro Motive Division. The Acelas are Canadian (which under NAFTA qualifies as American, btw) with French technology. So you can argue that all internal combustion powered vehicles in the U.S. are German since Niklaus Otto and Rudolf Diesel were both German, as was Felix Wankel. Sheesh. I think I've covered our internal combustion engines.

I mean I guess you could argue that Atkinsen and Miller cycle engines aren't, but they are both essentially modified Otto-cycle engines, for one thing, and for another, the only car to ever use a Miller-cycle engine was the Mazda Milennia/Eunos 800/Xedos 9 (same car, different names- North American, Japanese, and European brand names, respectively) and the model that used it, the Millenia S, was never built in large numbers. I would be somewhat shocked if the number of Milennia S cars built in total was over 15,000

The ALP-44s are Sweedish. The similar looking but very different AEM-7s are not. The ALP-46a is a German locomotive. It is a Bombardier TRAXX locomotive with some small mods assembled in Kassel, Germany. CKDing would save a little money, but not much, over a relatively new design- or a batch of HHP-8s.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

its going to be hard to make new locos. no new passenger locos have been made in the US sense i think the P-42 as they were built in Erie PE. and im talking about long haul engines. not short run commuter engines.

 

[jis]

The AEM-7s are NOT Sweedish. They are based on a Sweedish design, but the body is Budd, and most of the electrics were done by Electro Motive Division. The Acelas are Canadian (which under NAFTA qualifies as American, btw) with French technology.
[ Some material elided for the sake of brevity ]

The ALP-44s are Sweedish. The similar looking but very different AEM-7s are not. The ALP-46a is a German locomotive. It is a Bombardier TRAXX locomotive with some small mods assembled in Kassel, Germany. CKDing would save a little money, but not much, over a relatively new design- or a batch of HHP-8s.

My my. Sorry for upsetting you

My point is that certainly an appropriate arrangement like perhaps some Canadian company manufacturing and asembling the parts based on German design, in Canada or US or Mexico, instead of in Kassel could be managed for the sake of meeting the requirements set by US law, for a suitable delay in delivery dates and a suitable addition in price.

Afterall EMD did exactly that for the AEM-7 but based on a Swedish design in that case and that was enough, and then they never manufactured another electric engine again. Such is done all the time to meet requirements of either laws or contractual agreements with various outfits in various countries.

Nothing new there. Nothing special about ALP-46A or other TRAXX based locos. Afterall similar things are already manufactured under license in e.g. India for Indian Railways, by a manufacturing facility run by the Indian Railways. The only difference in that case is that the Indian manufactured unit costs a quarter of what the European manufactured unit costs. Bombardier collects an appropriate licensing fee in that case.

HHP-8 or ALP46A - either way Bombardier will be very happy. Either way they will most likely be manufactured in Canada for Amtrak if they were to order any.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You're forgetting MotivePower, EMD's F59s, and a bunch of others I'm sure I've simply forgotten. Actually, wait, the PL42s were also built in the US, albeit with considerable european technology.

 

[jis]

You're forgetting MotivePower, EMD's F59s, and a bunch of others I'm sure I've simply forgotten. Actually, wait, the PL42s were also built in the US, albeit with considerable european technology.

Actually, since I was not making an exhaustive list of all locomotives manufacture in the US, I don't see how I could be forgetting anything. However, if you wish to compile such a list, and had not included them, then indeed you should include them.

The PL42 has an EMD 710 prime mover, so it does have considerable US designed technology too. Other than that it is basically a French design based on Alstom's Prima platform. I believe (although I could be wrong) the car bodies were manufactured in the Valencia plant in Spain. The electricals are entirely European design, sourced from Alstom. Some of the control systems (brakes, anti-slip) came from WABCO. Final assembly was done in Alstom Hornell. Interestingly, originally the Prima platform was for pure electrics. It was adapted for use in diesels as an evolution. The PL42s were the first single cab units manufactured using the Prima platform, and they were ridiculously heavier when compared to other Prima units, mainly to meet FRA requirements.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

we need ELECTRIC LOCOS WITH PANTOGRAPHS. what was the last electric loco made 100% in the USA

 

[jis]

Are there any 186 MPH+ trains anywhere in the world that, outside of major cities, operate on alignments that were not originally designed for high speed rail?

Not operating at 186+mph, but TGVs do operate in commercial service outside of major cities at 200 to 220 kph on classic main-lines. One that comes immediately to mind is St.-Pierre-des-Corpes to Bordeaux St.-Jean, for the Paris Montparnasse to Bordeaux St.-Jean nonstop TGV Atlantique service. The LGV ends at St.-Pierre-des-Corpes. The rest of the journey is on classic main line. Then there is of course the Paris to Lausanne and Paris to Geneva service too.

In Japan there is the Akita Shinkansen service which runs along what is veritably a cow path after it leaves the high speed line at Morioka. This standard gauge line was purpose built for Akita Shinkansen trains but was not designed to be particularly high speed. It is actually a very pretty ride specially in fall, winding through mountains and forests. This line also has a segment of dual gauge track where both the standard gauge Akita Shinkansen trains and the Imperial gauge local trains share trackage.

 

[jackal]

I thought part of the excuse with the limitations of the Acela couplers might have had something to do with curves, and if I recall correctly the Shinkansen operates on an alignment that was originally constructed for the Shinkansen, which might mean the curves are less tight over there.

And the British and some European rails were not.

Are there any 186 MPH+ trains anywhere in the world that, outside of major cities, operate on alignments that were not originally designed for high speed rail?

Sure. I rode on a TGV that spent about half of its travel time to my destination (Dijon) on a non-LGV. The TGV I rode 10 years ago to Poitiers spent no time on an LGV. These TGV units are perfectly capable of handling normal non-HSR trackage, albeit not at the higher speeds allowed on an LGV.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The point I was trying to make with that question was more whether anyone has ever successfully upgraded an existing alignment to 186 MPH+ for its whole length.

I do think there are places where running trains on a mix of high speed and conventional track may make sense. Running a high speed trainset on electrified conventional speed track from Maine to Boston and then transitioning to a new high speed alignment to get from the edge of the Boston metro area to the edge of the New York City metro area on the way to Penn Station might make sense, for example. (The travel times from Maine that way are not ideal, but the size of their population doesn't really inspire major investment.) Having trains that reach Philadelphia from a new high speed alignment's interchange where it crosses the Keystone Corridor and continue to Wilmington, DE along the NEC might also make a lot of sense. Service to Newport News and Norfolk on upgraded conventional track may be OK, since they're relatively close to Richmond (probably under an hour at 110 MPH) and there are no stops significantly beyond them that would be sharing that track.

But I think that to have a quality rail system that has a significant impact on our carbon footprint and petroleum imports, we need a backbone of high speed (ideally 220-350 MPH, or perhaps even faster) track interconnecting most of the metro areas with 1.5+ million populations (and maybe even a lot of the smaller cities), and slower speeds should be reserved for track within major metro areas and service out to areas with smaller populations.

Also, keep in mind that if you spent half the travel time on high speed track and half on conventional track, the vast majority of the miles were on high speed track. Building a new high speed alignment alignment for half the miles will get you far less than half the travel time on the high speed alignment.

 

[abqdave]

I am surprised to read no passenger locomotives are built in the U.S. According to this in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-Motive_Diesel, GE is the largest manufacturer of locomotives in the world, with Electro Motive Diesel second. Are passenger locomotives so different either one couldn't build some?

 

[jackal]

I am surprised to read no passenger locomotives are built in the U.S. According to this in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-Motive_Diesel, GE is the largest manufacturer of locomotives in the world, with Electro Motive Diesel second. Are passenger locomotives so different either one couldn't build some?

EMD's SD70MAC series was built with built-in HEP to power the Alaska Railroad's passenger trains.

Granted, the SD70-series is primarily a freight engine and is geared as such (given that no track faster than 60mph exists on the ARR, though they should easily be able to gear them for passenger speeds), but that alone shows that the assertion that no passenger locomotives are built in the U.S. is false.

 

[jis]

I am surprised to read no passenger locomotives are built in the U.S. According to this in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-Motive_Diesel, GE is the largest manufacturer of locomotives in the world, with Electro Motive Diesel second. Are passenger locomotives so different either one couldn't build some?

I don't know if anyone said that no passenger locomotives are manufactured in the US. Even if someone said that, that would clearly be wrong. What has been stated is that no electric locomotive is 100% designed and manufactured in the US anymore. And that I believe is a true statement. I suspect that the GE E60 was the last wholly US designed and built electric locomotive.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

there have been no US long distance passenger locos made in the US sense the GE p-42.all the locos that have been built are for commuter service. i don't think a short haul MP36 could haul the southwest cheif the full distance. also there haven't been any electric locos made in the US sense the E60. all the current ones like the ALP's have been made in Germany.