Amtrak management threw my stickers away

[NativeSon5859]

A friend of mine in New Orleans just called me. He was at the NOL station earlier waiting to meet someone coming in on the Crescent.

Anyway, while he was there, he asked the agent at the counter about the stickers that I had passed out a couple of weeks back.

Apparently, they didn't last all that long.

I guess upper management in D.C found out about it and made sure all of the stickers were thrown away. I suppose that having stickers saying "SAVE THE SUNSET" were too controversial since the powers that be in Washington D.C, for some reason, do not support extending the service back to Orlando.

Upper management at Amtrak seems to be extremely detached at times from what people actually want.

Am I disappointed? Yes, seeing as how I have been advocating Amtrak to everyone I know for as long as I can remember. Am I surprised? No. Pretty much par for the course with corporate America. Will I press on? Absolutely.

 

[had8ley]

Go for the gold. Just remember Kummant's reply in Passenger Train Journal concerning the east end of the Sunset; "They'll just have to get over it." There are also a few on this site that think he walks on water. I tend to agree~ but it's not the same kind of water.

 

[RTOlson]

First off, you're making a lot of assumptions there. Unless someone said so specifically, I don't know if you can know what really happened with them.

Secondly, I would make sure you have your ducks in a row if you're going to push this thing. Assuming you're correct and Amtrak management is opposed to your lobbying effort, you would probably need to come up with a way to keep the stickers in the station. I scarcely doubt Amtrak management would like to semi-endorse a grassroots effort if it is somewhat opposed to it.

I think you may need to argue that Amtrak has created a limited public forum inside the station. I would definitely learn Amtrak's First Amendment policy by heart because that's probably going to be the best way to keep your material in the station.

 

[NativeSon5859]

First off, you're making a lot of assumptions there. Unless someone said so specifically, I don't know if you can know what really happened with them.
Secondly, I would make sure you have your ducks in a row if you're going to push this thing. Assuming you're correct and Amtrak management is opposed to your lobbying effort, you would probably need to come up with a way to keep the stickers in the station. I scarcely doubt Amtrak management would like to semi-endorse a grassroots effort if it is somewhat opposed to it.

I think you may need to argue that Amtrak has created a limited public forum inside the station. I would definitely learn Amtrak's First Amendment policy by heart because that's probably going to be the best way to keep your material in the station.

I'm not making any assumptions because my friend was told point blank that they were taken away and thrown away. And, I trust him. In any case, I'll be down there soon enough.

In the end, having them in the station itself is not the end all, be all of this.

 

[RTOlson]

Sorry, I was just responding to what you had written.

I guess upper management in D.C found out about it and made sure all of the stickers were thrown away. I suppose that having stickers saying "SAVE THE SUNSET" were too controversial since the powers that be in Washington D.C, for some reason, do not support extending the service back to Orlando.

(emphasis added).
There was no additional information on how you reached these conclusions and they sounded like assumptions.

I don't know if I endorse your cause, but I will support your right to put railroading materials in a train station (within reason). If Amtrak lets railfan groups and rail advocacy groups to put their materials in stations (heck, even the "Visit Mystery Point, La." brochures), they need to do it for yours as well.

 

[PRR 60]

Amtrak First Amendment Policy

Amtrak has the right to determine where to spend the limited resources they receive. They have determined that the market east of New Orleans no longer supports the cost of an overnight Superliner train funded 100% by Amtrak. They have asked for state support and have gotten no response. Without state help, Amtrak has determined that the money it would cost to run the Sunset east of New Orleans would be better spent elsewhere. That is management's right.

You can disagree with that, but if you wish the Sunset to be restored, and there is no additional funding from the Federal or state levels to fund the service, exactly what other service or services do you want Amtrak to cut to pay for the Sunset? There is no free lunch here. Lets say it would cost Amtrak about $3 million a year to re-establish the Sunset east of New Orleans (and that's in the ballpark), exactly where do they get that $3 million? Run the Lake Shore every other day? Cut the Cardinal? Drop the Portland section of the Empire Builder? Name your choice, because the money is not there to do it all.

 

[NativeSon5859]

Sorry, I was just responding to what you had written.

I guess upper management in D.C found out about it and made sure all of the stickers were thrown away. I suppose that having stickers saying "SAVE THE SUNSET" were too controversial since the powers that be in Washington D.C, for some reason, do not support extending the service back to Orlando.

(emphasis added).
There was no additional information on how you reached these conclusions and they sounded like assumptions.

I don't know if I endorse your cause, but I will support your right to put railroading materials in a train station (within reason). If Amtrak lets railfan groups and rail advocacy groups to put their materials in stations (heck, even the "Visit Mystery Point, La." brochures), they need to do it for yours as well.

Ah ok. Well as far as that goes, honestly, I think it's more valid than a simple assumption. I'm 90% certain that's the reason why they were taken away. But in any case, that's not all that important. I gave the stickers out initially (and indeed, this is what I told the folks at the station) so that the employees could pass them amongst each other...no more, no less. I know Amtrak has quite a few employees who are also rail advocates. Once I was told they would give them to passengers, I figured that was a better idea. After all, it's the public who, in the end, ultimetely has to decide if they want to choose Amtrak over other means of travel, and it's the public who has the influence to make something happen.

 

[Rafi]

Have you tried getting in touch with NARP? They're sponsoring a grass roots group dedicated right now to reinstating the Sunset, and if you were to add what has obviously been a tremendous, impressive effort on your part to their presence, you may find yourself with bumper stickers that stay in the station, since a NARP-associated group carries more traction with Amtrak management than just one guy.

Rafi

 

[NativeSon5859]

Amtrak First Amendment Policy
Amtrak has the right to determine where to spend the limited resources they receive. They have determined that the market east of New Orleans no longer supports the cost of an overnight Superliner train funded 100% by Amtrak. They have asked for state support and have gotten no response. Without state help, Amtrak has determined that the money it would cost to run the Sunset east of New Orleans would be better spent elsewhere. That is management's right.

You can disagree with that, but if you wish the Sunset to be restored, and there is no additional funding from the Federal or state levels to fund the service, exactly what other service or services do you want Amtrak to cut to pay for the Sunset? There is no free lunch here. Lets say it would cost Amtrak about $3 million a year to re-establish the Sunset east of New Orleans (and that's in the ballpark), exactly where do they get that $3 million? Run the Lake Shore every other day? Cut the Cardinal? Drop the Portland section of the Empire Builder? Name your choice, because the money is not there to do it all.

All good points. And of course, I have some of my own:

1) How they made that determination is something I would like to know. On the surface, it seems to be another "blame Katrina" excuse, pure and simply. It's their decision, sure. But quite a poor one. I would like to know how much time they actually spent talking to business leaders and such along the route to determine what the economic conditions are.

2) The train was not state supported before the storm...shouldn't be afterwards. Period.

3) All they have to do is announce a train off notice to end this charade. But they do not want to. They'd rather hold the states hostage for money, and in the meantime, 12 cities are left without any rail service.

4) Amtrak employees are being told different reasons for the service suspension....infrastructure damage, foundation problems at the stations, or the classic excuse "no timeline has been set for restoration, but we will advise you once one is established". Why not be honest with the public?

The point is, after nearly three years, "future service has not been determined" simply won't cut it as far as an excuse.

 

[NativeSon5859]

Have you tried getting in touch with NARP? They're sponsoring a grass roots group dedicated right now to reinstating the Sunset, and if you were to add what has obviously been a tremendous, impressive effort on your part to their presence, you may find yourself with bumper stickers that stay in the station, since a NARP-associated group carries more traction with Amtrak management than just one guy.
Rafi

Hi Rafi, I sure have, and am currently in the process of joining their campaign. They are all for what I am doing.

 

[VentureForth]

I'd like to offer my own opinion of the stickers. I think that Amtrak has every right in the world to limit what they put in the ticket book - your ticket, you baggage claim and that's about it. No one at Amtrak should be compelled to include anything in the ticket book that is not provided by Amtrak. I didn't mention it when the thread first came up so I can't say I told you so, but I DID think it would end this way.

Another approach would be to set bumper stickers and a brochure pointing to a professionally developed website describing to the average station guest 1) what the problem is (no Amtrak East of LA "due to Katrina", 2) what Amtrak is doing about it (nothing), and 3) what the average person can do about it (donate to NARP, Call a State & US Senators and Representatives, with their numbers on the brochure and website).

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Am I reading the Amtrak First Amendment Policy right?

No expressive or First Amendment activities may be conducted on Amtrak Property unless a permit has been obtained,

Does that mean you need written permission to have the stickers distributed?

 

[PRR 60]

Am I reading the Amtrak First Amendment Policy right?

No expressive or First Amendment activities may be conducted on Amtrak Property unless a permit has been obtained,

Does that mean you need written permission to have the stickers distributed?

That is correct. If someone wishes to distribute materials of any kind on Amtrak controlled property, prior written permission must be obtained from Amtrak.

 

[NativeSon5859]

I'd like to offer my own opinion of the stickers. I think that Amtrak has every right in the world to limit what they put in the ticket book - your ticket, you baggage claim and that's about it. No one at Amtrak should be compelled to include anything in the ticket book that is not provided by Amtrak. I didn't mention it when the thread first came up so I can't say I told you so, but I DID think it would end this way.
Another approach would be to set bumper stickers and a brochure pointing to a professionally developed website describing to the average station guest 1) what the problem is (no Amtrak East of LA "due to Katrina", 2) what Amtrak is doing about it (nothing), and 3) what the average person can do about it (donate to NARP, Call a State & US Senators and Representatives, with their numbers on the brochure and website).

I agree with that. I never asked anyone to put them in the ticket jackets. When they told me that they would, I was shocked, honestly. I have worked at various airlines before and there was a policy like that in place...only allowed to have approved company matierial in public view, etc. So it does not surprise me that they were taken away from the counter. It surprises me that they were THROWN away. I could have seen them taking them off the counter and putting them in the crew lounge or something. That's why my guess is that whoever made the decision is a pretty stern advocate for this train not to resume its former route. Otherwise, it's just free PR for Amtrak. A corporation should, in theory, welcome public support. In the end, this is all about promoting rail travel.

I do not have the resources currently to create a high caliber website or a spiffy looking brochure, although it's certainly something I would like to accomplish. I let the people whom I write (various local news stations, radio hosts, CVB's, national news programs) know that the website I have is very, very basic but it does contain contact information and quite a bit of information of the train and the campaign in general. Like I said, this is a grass roots deal. Something I do in my spare time. In time I'd like to see it grow into something bigger.

 

[jphjaxfl]

As a resident of Jacksonville, FL and as a traveler that has used the Sunset Ltd between Jacksonville and New Orleans, I do not understand why Amtrak has not posted legally required 180 day Train Off notices at stations along the route. This might be enough to get more of the public's attention. Other times when Amtrak and private railroads asked to discontinue trains, such notices were required. I attended a number of Interstate Commerce Commissions hearings on train discontinuances back in the late 1960s when they were happening almost every month. They didn't often keep the trains running, but the public was allowed to voice their opinion. Now it appears Amtrak does not want the public to have any input in the discontinuance of the Sunset Ltd, east of New Orleans. It appears that they think if the train is "suspended" long enough the public will forget that it existed. With the high price of gas and limited alternate transportation options, we might be amazed at the public's response to the legally required 180 day notices.

 

[NativeSon5859]

As a resident of Jacksonville, FL and as a traveler that has used the Sunset Ltd between Jacksonville and New Orleans, I do not understand why Amtrak has not posted legally required 180 day Train Off notices at stations along the route. This might be enough to get more of the public's attention. Other times when Amtrak and private railroads asked to discontinue trains, such notices were required. I attended a number of Interstate Commerce Commissions hearings on train discontinuances back in the late 1960s when they were happening almost every month. They didn't often keep the trains running, but the public was allowed to voice their opinion. Now it appears Amtrak does not want the public to have any input in the discontinuance of the Sunset Ltd, east of New Orleans. It appears that they think if the train is "suspended" long enough the public will forget that it existed. With the high price of gas and limited alternate transportation options, we might be amazed at the public's response to the legally required 180 day notices.

That's what bothers me. I can easily forsee Amtrak trying to slip this one under the radar, so to speak. I guess they figured that not many people would notice or would care. All I can do...and this is a key part to my campaign...is to let as many people as possible know about this 180 day notice and how as of yet nothing has been announced...nearly three years later...even though Amtrak's intentions are pretty clear. In the meantime, 12 cities are left in limbo. But again, I question whether or not Katrina has permanently and unjustly clouded Amtrak's mind in regards to the viability of this portion of the route?

 

[PRR 60]

As a resident of Jacksonville, FL and as a traveler that has used the Sunset Ltd between Jacksonville and New Orleans, I do not understand why Amtrak has not posted legally required 180 day Train Off notices at stations along the route. This might be enough to get more of the public's attention. Other times when Amtrak and private railroads asked to discontinue trains, such notices were required. I attended a number of Interstate Commerce Commissions hearings on train discontinuances back in the late 1960s when they were happening almost every month. They didn't often keep the trains running, but the public was allowed to voice their opinion. Now it appears Amtrak does not want the public to have any input in the discontinuance of the Sunset Ltd, east of New Orleans. It appears that they think if the train is "suspended" long enough the public will forget that it existed. With the high price of gas and limited alternate transportation options, we might be amazed at the public's response to the legally required 180 day notices.

Amtrak has not done that in order to retain rights to the CSX line. By not officially discontinuing service NOL to JAX, Amtrak leaves open the possibility of service being re-established in some manner in the future without any nonsense from CSX. If the 180-day notice is posted, and if no one steps up with a financial plan to retain the service, at the end of the 180 days the service is officially abandoned and Amtrak relinquishes rights to the CSX line. If they then want to re-establish service, it would be the same process as a new service. A capacity study would be conducted and Amtrak or someone other than CSX would have to pay for any required line upgrades (and I know CSX: there would be upgrades required). What surprises me is not that Amtrak hasn't posted the notices, but that CSX has not forced the issue.

 

[AlanB]

As a resident of Jacksonville, FL and as a traveler that has used the Sunset Ltd between Jacksonville and New Orleans, I do not understand why Amtrak has not posted legally required 180 day Train Off notices at stations along the route. This might be enough to get more of the public's attention. Other times when Amtrak and private railroads asked to discontinue trains, such notices were required. I attended a number of Interstate Commerce Commissions hearings on train discontinuances back in the late 1960s when they were happening almost every month. They didn't often keep the trains running, but the public was allowed to voice their opinion. Now it appears Amtrak does not want the public to have any input in the discontinuance of the Sunset Ltd, east of New Orleans. It appears that they think if the train is "suspended" long enough the public will forget that it existed. With the high price of gas and limited alternate transportation options, we might be amazed at the public's response to the legally required 180 day notices.

They don't do it for three reasons.

First, as you've already mentioned, doing so would really heat up the public debate; perhaps to the point where they wouldn't be able to cancel the train permanently.

Two, actually doing so would at the end of the 180 days kill their right to ever run another train on that line. They would have to negotiate anew to run a service in the future and would have to concede to demands from CSX they pay for infrastructure improvements. By not dropping the line "officially", they continue to retain the right to run trains on that line.

Three, putting up the 180 day notices would actually require them to start running the train once again for the 180 days.

 

[UseFOIA]

NativeSon5859, have you filed FOIA requests through Amtrak to get internal documents, communications with states, etc?

If not, you may wish to do so.

 

[VentureForth]

What upgrades would be required of Amtrak for CSX to let them run (if they lose that status)? I mean, Amtrak was running on the line prior to Katrina, and since the hurricane, the quality of the track has been immensely improved by virtue of being practically brand new.

Are there portions of the track that are still so bad that CSX will only repair them if Amtrak ponies up to the plate?

Thanks for the clarification of your participation, NativeSon. You're doing the right thing. Now you just need a rich uncle to finance the charge. Sorry, that ain't me.

Two, actually doing so would at the end of the 180 days kill their right to ever run another train on that line. They would have to negotiate anew to run a service in the future and would have to concede to demands from CSX they pay for infrastructure improvements. By not dropping the line "officially", they continue to retain the right to run trains on that line.

Alan, how long can they get away with point two? And why wouldn't they have just suspended other routes, hoping for renewed interest, rather than abandoning them?

 

[NativeSon5859]

NativeSon5859, have you filed FOIA requests through Amtrak to get internal documents, communications with states, etc?If not, you may wish to do so.

Great suggestion. I will look into that. Thanks.

 

[VentureForth]

Might want to check up with Matthew Kodi. He's a BNSF driver who is the director of the Save Our Trains Michigan website and about a dozen or so other forums related to Michigan passenger rail. He is an avid poster in other forums and is known for being passionate about saving Amtrak routes.

 

[AlanB]

What upgrades would be required of Amtrak for CSX to let them run (if they lose that status)? I mean, Amtrak was running on the line prior to Katrina, and since the hurricane, the quality of the track has been immensely improved by virtue of being practically brand new.
Are there portions of the track that are still so bad that CSX will only repair them if Amtrak ponies up to the plate?

They could demand that Amtrak pay to install a signal system on the unsignaled sections; they could make Amtrak pay for more sidings or longer sidings, even double track if traffic warranted; they could require higher speed switches; new tracks in certain areas; or pretty much whatever they can dream up.

Two, actually doing so would at the end of the 180 days kill their right to ever run another train on that line. They would have to negotiate anew to run a service in the future and would have to concede to demands from CSX they pay for infrastructure improvements. By not dropping the line "officially", they continue to retain the right to run trains on that line.

Alan, how long can they get away with point two? And why wouldn't they have just suspended other routes, hoping for renewed interest, rather than abandoning them?

I would suspect that they can get away with it for as long as the politicians let them or CSX let's them. As for not doing this on other routes, if I had to guess I'd say it's partly because they've never had an opportunity like this before with such a natural disaster, partly because the three states involved seem willing to let them get away with it, and possibly because no one ever thought of doing it before if there was an opportunity.

But look at what happened with the CS, Amtrak cut things way back because of the slide. Almost immediately the three states involved jumped all over them. And those three states are already paying Amtrak to help run local service, the type of local service that Alex Kummant seems to think is Amtrak's future. So Amtrak couldn't ignore them and gradually started restoring sections of the CS as the pressure continued to mount for restored service.

Nothing like that has happend in the case of Alabama and Mississippi, and Florida has only made a minor protest so far.

 

[VentureForth]

Wonder if Florida could get Orlando to Pensacola up and running...

 

[George Harris]

What upgrades would be required of Amtrak for CSX to let them run (if they lose that status)? I mean, Amtrak was running on the line prior to Katrina, and since the hurricane, the quality of the track has been immensely improved by virtue of being practically brand new.
Are there portions of the track that are still so bad that CSX will only repair them if Amtrak ponies up to the plate?

The traffic on the line is pushing its capacity limits, but so far as I know the track condition is as good as it has ever been, and I do mean ever been. For the sake of relaibility it needs some more long sidings east of Flomaton and could stand some sections of double track west of Flomaton. Signals between Flomaton and Tallahassee would also be nice. In L&N days, and I have a 1964 employee timetable for this area, the speed limits were 70P/50F New Orleans - Mobile - Montgomery AL, 55P/45F Flomaton - Pensacola and 55P/40F Pensacola to Chattahoochee. From some limited information for 2003, the maximum speed limit New Orleans to Flomaton was 79P/60F and east of Flomaton was 59P/49F which is a fast as it can be with no signals.

Over the last few years CSX seems to have at least in part seen the light and started putting a lot more money into the track to upgrade conditions and increase capacity.

This improvement may not last if the attempted control of CSX by TCI succeeds. If people have not been following, TCI is a British hedge fund named The Children's Investment Fund which is trying to pack the CSX board with their selection of people. Among their claim is that CSX is putting too much money into the facilities. That is, over-investing in the track. Are these people ever from the Twilight Zone. This is a game that has been played by others before. Railroads require a lot of long term thinking and investment to stay viable. If TCI has its way, they will cut way back on maintenance and investment in the fixed plant and the financial statements will look real good for a few years. All involved will talk about how great things are and after a few years bail out before the deferred maintenance starts causing lost of slow orders and derailments.

TCI? Even their name sounds sleazy.