Two sections of Transcon line within NM are single track- Pecos River bridge at Ft. Sumner (you can't see Billy the Kid gravesite from it) and BNSF flyover over UP line west of Vaughn. I do not know when the BNSF will double track them. I'm sure it will be delay a little longer due to economy.
Amtrak Having to Pay For Maintenance on Raton Line?
- Thread starter printman2000
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If Amtrak has to be rerouted off a line because it has been downgraded, it is likely that passenger train service will never return. A good example is the old Seaboard route from Richmond, VA to Raleigh, NC. Amtrak and through freight service was rerouted over the old Coastline route from Richmond, VA to Rocky Mount, NC which now has choke point that often causes Amtrak trains to be delayed. Fortunately, the State and local authorities are now considering the former Seaboard route for high speed rail. Another example is between Chicago and Cincinnati. Penn Central abandoned parts of the fastest, most direct passenger route between the two cities which was the former Big Four route which ran from Chicago to Kankakee on the current CN former IC route, then via Lafayette, Indianapolis and Shelbyville directly into Cincinnati. Penn Central routed freight trains over routes that did not serve the cities that would generate more passenger business. Today you have the Cardinal taking the former Monon route from Chicago to Crawfordsville which had not seen passenger service since 1967 prior Amtrak, then the former Peoria and Eastern from Crawfordsville to Indianapolis which had not seen passenger service since the mid 1950s prior to Amtrak, then the former B&0 line which had not seen passenger service since the early 1950s from Indianapolis to Cincinnati. States and cities need to look long and hard at rail lines that the freight railroads are downgrading and create a coilition to purchase and rehab the routes so passenger service can continue. As Saxman pointed out, what is good for the freight railroads is not always good for Amtrak passengers.
Notelvis
Conductor
Rocky Mount as a 'chokepoint'....... I like your terminology.
I personally refer to the CSX (former ACL) route in that area as a 'Black Hole'. At it's worst, the northbound 'Carolinian' can actually depart Rocky Mount on-time and arrive more than two hours late in Petersburg, VA...... it's happened to me as a passenger five or six times.... frequently enough that I'll regularly start my Amtrak trips with a cheap jet to BWI or Chicago Midway and then catch the train from there.
I personally refer to the CSX (former ACL) route in that area as a 'Black Hole'. At it's worst, the northbound 'Carolinian' can actually depart Rocky Mount on-time and arrive more than two hours late in Petersburg, VA...... it's happened to me as a passenger five or six times.... frequently enough that I'll regularly start my Amtrak trips with a cheap jet to BWI or Chicago Midway and then catch the train from there.
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Boswash
Guest
Western Kansas and eastern Colorado are on borrowed time anyway. Nobody wants or needs to go there, especially in the middle of the night. Like the airlines, Amtrak's and railroads in general only interest is in traffic between major cities like Chicago and Los Angeles. They could care a whit whether there is anyone waiting in timbuckthree to board at a mid-route point.
Since they could save at least 6 hours transit time by dropping down to Amarillo and bypassing Albuquerque, the move is inevitable. The Chief is already a "fast" train by Amtrak standards, and cutting so much time off will enable Amtrak to remain fairly competitive with Megabus and the others that are chomping away at its cheap seat coach passenger base.
BUT, there is significant demand for front-range passenger rail transportation between Denver, Colorado Springs, and perhaps even Albuquerque. One has to ask, would they rather lay a new line down the middle of I-25 at some future date, costing billions of Obama-bucks, or spend a few miserly millions now to maintain the line they already got?
I bet there's going to be a lotta folks 100 years from now who will wish that they still had railroads instead of a just a nice network of underutilized bike trails.
Since they could save at least 6 hours transit time by dropping down to Amarillo and bypassing Albuquerque, the move is inevitable. The Chief is already a "fast" train by Amtrak standards, and cutting so much time off will enable Amtrak to remain fairly competitive with Megabus and the others that are chomping away at its cheap seat coach passenger base.
BUT, there is significant demand for front-range passenger rail transportation between Denver, Colorado Springs, and perhaps even Albuquerque. One has to ask, would they rather lay a new line down the middle of I-25 at some future date, costing billions of Obama-bucks, or spend a few miserly millions now to maintain the line they already got?
I bet there's going to be a lotta folks 100 years from now who will wish that they still had railroads instead of a just a nice network of underutilized bike trails.
I have to disagree with this. Amtrak can never hope to compete with airlines between points like Chicago and Los Angeles, certainly never in speed, and probably not in fares, either. So Amtrak must rely on its advantage....that is to provide service to large and small intermediate points, many of which Amtrak has a monopoly on, while at the same time offer an alternative between the end points with its unique mode.
printman2000
Engineer
I am not certain that is true. The few times it has rerouted (without making any stops except in Amarillo for a crew change) it stayed on just about the same schedule. I do not think it went faster and if anything, lost some time.
henryj
Conductor
This has come up before. I checked the old timetables when they ran the San Francisco Chief via Amarillo and it was really not any faster. And if they use the Transcon they will still have to run up to ABQ and then reverse and wye the train to get out. So any time saved will be used up doing that. New Mexico is not going to let them run the train and by-pass ABQ. That would be really stupid on Amtrak's part anyway. The transcon may be a little faster than the 1960's now that double tracking is almost complete, but there are a lot more trains. The SWC can't run 90mph if the line is clogged with container and piggyback trains going 70mph. Everytime I have been out there between Clovis, NM and Belen it was wall to wall trains.
battalion51
Engineer
Well it's also a bit tough to gauge when you're on a re-routed train. Since the Chief was just a visitor it's hard to determine how it would do in reality if it was built in as part of the schedule for the Transcon.
TVRM610
Conductor
Why can't the Chief bypass Alburquerque and passengers change to the Railrunner? Seems like a no-brainer to me. I'm sure many passengers already change at Alburquerque to go to Santa Fe. (and that number will be growing as time goes by no doubt.)
I got to ride the Railrunner earlier this year and must say I was most impressed with the operation.
I got to ride the Railrunner earlier this year and must say I was most impressed with the operation.
Again, it will not work if the SWC train arrive very late. Plus ABQ is a fuel and 1,000 miles inspection stop, along with crew exchange.
Plus the lack of an easy transfer. BNSF forced Railrunner to stop some distance away from the mainline, so this would not be a simple transfer for people to Railrunner.
printman2000
Engineer
I had thought of that, but it is not gonna save 6 hours over the current schedule/route.
printman2000
Engineer
People going to Santa Fe usually go to Lamy and take the shuttle into Santa Fe.
TVRM610
Conductor
I am really trying to keep calm... but my word people do you have ANY knowledge of what you type about? The BNSF Mainline is right next to the Railrunner Station. A platform is all it would take in order for a passenger transfer to be possible ( physically that is... politically, that's another story).
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henryj
Conductor
"but my word people do you have ANY knowledge of what you type about?" Yes, I have ridden railrunner all the way from Santa Fe to Belen and return. The platform at Belen is not on the mainline, it is around the corner and across the street on the diverging route to ABQ. You are asking people that have paid for a long distance Amtrak trip and first class sleeper space to trapse across the streets in the rain or at night and board a commuter train, if there is one, to go to ABQ. Better to have a dedicated bus than that. Railrunner only runs a few trains a day from Belen and sometimes hours apart. Amtrak is notorious for being late. How are you going to coordinate that. It's very easy to just run the SWC up the line to ABQ proper and use the main station. There is a wye just south of the station to turn the train on. It would be very easy to accomodate and it's not that unprecedented as I have been other long distance trains that have to wye themselves in route. ABQ is a major stop and deserves direct service. Railrunner is simply not the answer.
printman2000
Engineer
Not that I think Railrunner is the answer, but it the RR station in Belen looks to me to be on the mainline. It is located just west of where you see the Rail Cafe on this map...
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Reinken+Avenue+and+Wisconsin+Street+Belen,+NM&sll=35.221997,-101.831297&sspn=0.256347,0.617294&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=E+Reinken+Ave+%26+Wisconsin+St,+Belen,+Valencia,+New+Mexico+87002&ll=34.66199,-106.766075&spn=0.002016,0.004823&z=18
If you look at street view, you can see it. It is not on the satellite view yet. Must be old images.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Reinken+Avenue+and+Wisconsin+Street+Belen,+NM&sll=35.221997,-101.831297&sspn=0.256347,0.617294&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=E+Reinken+Ave+%26+Wisconsin+St,+Belen,+Valencia,+New+Mexico+87002&ll=34.66199,-106.766075&spn=0.002016,0.004823&z=18
If you look at street view, you can see it. It is not on the satellite view yet. Must be old images.
MattW
Conductor
If you're in street view, go to the corner of DeSoto Ave. and E Ross Ave. You'll see what looks like the spur that Rail Runner uses to access the Belen station. You can also see a fence separating the spur from the two "mainlines." In satellite view, you can see the start of the spur north of the intersection, but it looks like south of there is the old imagery. Since Belen is a terminus station, having the separation makes sense as you can layover trains there without tying up the mainline. Just about every terminus commuter rail station I know of right off hand has some sort of layover capacity.
TVRM610
Conductor
I'm sorry but you do not know what you are talking about. The railrunner platform at Belin sits right next to the mainline...
"Railrunner only runs a few train a day from Belin" - there are currently 7 departures from Belin on weekdays and 2 to 5 departures from Belin on weekends. Obviously additional trains could be scheduled around the Amtrak if needed.
By the way... I'm not against running up to ABQ. Wye's are always fun right?
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D
domefoamer
Guest
I don't understand the common perception, as stated twice in this thread, that the route down the Front Range from Denver to Pueblo is overloaded, or anywhere near capacity. I don't know the official stats; perhaps some of you do. But I have driven two round-trips from Denver to Colorado Springs in the past two weeks, on weekday afternoons. I remained in sight of the tracks for at least half that 60-mile distance, and I saw only two trains in the four hours of driving. Both were hauling tank cars, not coal. Sometimes it must be busier, but I have no reason to think that was atypical. What's the real story here?
printman2000
Engineer
You are correct. If you go to this link you can see the fenced off spur. However, you can also see that the main lines are fairly close. Does not look like a stretch to reach them.
henryj
Conductor
I'm sorry but you do not know what you are talking about. The railrunner platform at Belin sits right next to the mainline...
"Railrunner only runs a few train a day from Belin" - there are currently 7 departures from Belin on weekdays and 2 to 5 departures from Belin on weekends. Obviously additional trains could be scheduled around the Amtrak if needed.
By the way... I'm not against running up to ABQ. Wye's are always fun right?
Well yes I do as I was just up there. The new Railrunner station is not even on Google yet. And they are still working on it there. They still have some more enhancements to make although the basic structure is in place and the parking lot is done. And yes the mainline is near it and you could build the station to serve both, but that is not what they did. The Railrunner platform, and that is all it is, is walled off from the BNSF main. And yes they run 7 trains north and 5 south weekdays, but only two on Sunday's. They could schedule a connecting train that would wait for Amtrak whenever it decided to appear but why bother. It's less than an hour up the line to ABQ. Once they wye the train then it resumes it's old schedule and route west of there. Railrunner is not set up to connect with Amtrak, but it is a nice commuter service and near as I could tell well patronized. One thing it accomplished is additional capacity and signaling on the old BNSF line to ABQ. But hey, I leave to all you 'experts' to figure out. You know Amtrak is not going to do anything that makes sense anyway. They will probably stop at the old Harvey house and bus people to ABQ.
MattW
Conductor
Bing has an aerial view of the station:
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=34.6629115610541~-106.7661656622663&lvl=19&sty=h&where1=Belen%2C%20NM
Even if you run the SWC into ABQ, why not also have it stop in Belen? In my opinion, that's how intercity and commuter service should work, the outermost commuter stop should be an intercity stop with maybe one intermediate stop if the commuter/intercity paralleling is very long.
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=34.6629115610541~-106.7661656622663&lvl=19&sty=h&where1=Belen%2C%20NM
Even if you run the SWC into ABQ, why not also have it stop in Belen? In my opinion, that's how intercity and commuter service should work, the outermost commuter stop should be an intercity stop with maybe one intermediate stop if the commuter/intercity paralleling is very long.
PaulM
Engineer
I recently drove from Santa Fe to Denver; and I observed two freights plus one exiting a power plant south of Pueblo. So I have the same question.
henryj
Conductor
Well of course it should stop in Belen, but they would have to add on to the station and that could cost millions. The station now is just a platform with a couple of sheds that cover basically two cars. It doesn't cover the mainline so it would have to be modified. Amtrak isn't going to spend any money. They have been dropping people off in a parking lot in Beaumont for years. I don't think Amtrak really cares who rides their trains or what towns they serve. They could give ABQ the Phoenix treatment. Dump passengers off in a parking lot in Belen and provide no connections, no nothing, just move on to the next station and act like ABQ doesn't even exist. Phoenix is 4 million people and Amtrak ignores it. ABQ is less than a million. New Mexico wants the Raton line kept in service so it is up to the state to decide what to do and provide the money. Amtrak isn't going to do anything. They don't even want to run these long distance trains. The SWC is just a shell of it's former self anyway. It's schedule is so padded that it now takes 43 hours to make the Chicago to LAX run. The Super Chief, the Chief and the El Capitan all did it in less than 40hrs. Moving to the transcon not only won't speed it up, it will probably make it even slower and more unreliable.
TVRM610
Conductor
We already disagree on a few things but it seems interesting that on one hand you are complaining that the SWC too long of a schedule but on the other hand you want the SWC to go up the line 40 miles, and back, out of its way in order to serve a town that would have a direct rail transfer? Thats gonna add at least 1.5 hours to the schedule.
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