I object to your overuse of, "Objection, your honor!"
My point was that most of the people who freaked out about the amenity cuts threatened to never, ever, ever use Amtrak again, and yet they were posting trip reports just a few months later.
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My point was that most of the people who freaked out about the amenity cuts threatened to never, ever, ever use Amtrak again, and yet they were posting trip reports just a few months later.
Calm down. It was a joke. It's like you've never seen my snarky posts before.
The Davy Crockett
Engineer
BCL: If your 'game.' try looking up what I actually wrote instead of twisting my words. I wrote - "'gaming' the system.''
One synonym is "abusing the system." Another is "cheating the system."
One synonym is "abusing the system." Another is "cheating the system."
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BCL
Engineer
Your examples are definitions. A synonym is one word or phrase. If you want something longer than "racket", it's choosing "illegal or unethical means". However, I thought that was rather strong. I remember the big issue when the US Mint was selling dollar coins at cost including shipping to encourage circulation. Well some people bought them with their credit cards, got points, and then deposited the coins. You can imagine how long that lasted.
I think a better definition for gaming is "exploiting a loophole". I think it explains what we have here with why there's a change to AGR without applying a value judgement.
JoeBas
Conductor
- Joined
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OVERRULED!!!I object to your overuse of, "Objection, your honor!"
This is a completely different thing. Getting one room "buy 3 get one free" every fourth trip vs every other is about $250 a year out of my pocket, annualized. And that's not even taking into account that I mainly used my points as a safety net for late planned (not sure of exact dates/schedule) or short notice trips (funerals, etc), which are of course higher bucket.
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I never considered points runs gaming the system. I'm just jealous I don't have that opportunity to make points runs! . I wouldn't like the loss of the 100 point minimum either if I used it to garner a large amount of points. But for me it is inconsequential as I don't make that many trips on Amtrak. This year I will gain all of 300 points via travel; under the new system I would have gained 246 points. 54 points more or less makes no difference to me. And using AGR for taking long convoluted trips is also not gaming the system. I recall someone on this forum (rather sanctimoniously, I thought) said they would never take a loophole AGR trip because they might deprive someone who needed to be somewhere in a hurry a seat on the train. This was just before I took my Slidell Loophole trip. If their intent was to make me feel guilty, it didn't work.
I'm not sure how much will change for me under the new system but I'm by no means anywhere near the point of giving up on Amtrak altogether yet. As for people leaving AU, there will always be new customers who join AGR after the January 24th who will be unaware of the "old" AGR benefits who will be joining AU.
. I wouldn't like the loss of the 100 point minimum either if I used it to garner a large amount of points. But for me it is inconsequential as I don't make that many trips on Amtrak. This year I will gain all of 300 points via travel; under the new system I would have gained 246 points. 54 points more or less makes no difference to me. And using AGR for taking long convoluted trips is also not gaming the system. I recall someone on this forum (rather sanctimoniously, I thought) said they would never take a loophole AGR trip because they might deprive someone who needed to be somewhere in a hurry a seat on the train. This was just before I took my Slidell Loophole trip. If their intent was to make me feel guilty, it didn't work. I'm not sure how much will change for me under the new system but I'm by no means anywhere near the point of giving up on Amtrak altogether yet. As for people leaving AU, there will always be new customers who join AGR after the January 24th who will be unaware of the "old" AGR benefits who will be joining AU.
I'll still be here!
Snark aside, I think that even though some people won't be traveling on Amtrak as often (or ever again), we'll still see them around for the other railfanning aspects, reading others' trip reports, the social threads, etc.
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Exactly...less often and shorter trips!
BCL
Engineer
However, I think we all recognize there are loopholes and that it was inevitable that they would eventually be eliminated. It's like all you can eat buffets, which tend to attract the biggest eaters. The 100 point minimum was a loophole that enabled members to earn cheap points. To get to the 10,000 points for Select Plus under the new system, it will cost $5000, and there's no loophole to get there any cheaper (save maybe a promotion). Under the previous system I figured it was possible to do so for less than $270 with the right promotional fare.I never considered points runs gaming the system. I'm just jealous I don't have that opportunity to make points runs!
However, I'm wondering why they didn't do anything like what we were talking about earlier, such as maybe a max two defined minimum points earnings per day or reduce the minimum points to 50. That would still give an incentive for points runs and give us cheapskates a chance.
Those $11 R/T fares from Harrisburg to Elizabethtown which netted 250 points and 450 during Double Days added up quickly over a two year period and enabled us to book two two zone awards in a roomette this past June using the longest way possible to experience the great scenery, get meals included and enjoy nice amenities like admission to the Metropolitan Lounges and ride in The Pacific Parlour Car on the Coast Starlight. That is why I've taken many "point runs" on that route,plus others that had comparable fares.
Obviously I don't see much of the country on a 20 minute ride,but I was "rewarded" with a two week vacation,half of it on the train using points. With the new AGR rules coming into effect, that scenario will be a thing of the past, but I'm glad I had the opportunity to do point runs, which i have been doing for ten years and using points for other trips over the years.
Now, what is wrong with that?
Obviously I don't see much of the country on a 20 minute ride,but I was "rewarded" with a two week vacation,half of it on the train using points. With the new AGR rules coming into effect, that scenario will be a thing of the past, but I'm glad I had the opportunity to do point runs, which i have been doing for ten years and using points for other trips over the years.
Now, what is wrong with that?
Manny T
OBS Chief
What's wrong with that is 2-fold:
(1) It tends to lessen the financial viability of the whole system. Amtrak HQ knows in a general way what ridership and travel trends are, what said travel generates in terms of revenue, how many passengers will join AGR and will earn points, how much their award travel will "cost." These calculations go into setting fares, and the result is a financially viable system, including AGR awards. Now imagine that instead of traveling (per trends, estimates etc.), people just load up on points via cheap "points runs" and collect their expensive AGR awards. Net result--system is broken, estimates useless, revenue not covering expenses, awards eating up profits, and on and on. Net net, the result is AGR 2.0 which many are unhappy with.
(2) Seeing the point run abuses, Amtrak clamps down & eliminates the 100 point minimum. Hence I lose a nice fringe benefit of my CHI-MKE round trips (cost $48). And no, I'm not happy about that.
(1) It tends to lessen the financial viability of the whole system. Amtrak HQ knows in a general way what ridership and travel trends are, what said travel generates in terms of revenue, how many passengers will join AGR and will earn points, how much their award travel will "cost." These calculations go into setting fares, and the result is a financially viable system, including AGR awards. Now imagine that instead of traveling (per trends, estimates etc.), people just load up on points via cheap "points runs" and collect their expensive AGR awards. Net result--system is broken, estimates useless, revenue not covering expenses, awards eating up profits, and on and on. Net net, the result is AGR 2.0 which many are unhappy with.
(2) Seeing the point run abuses, Amtrak clamps down & eliminates the 100 point minimum. Hence I lose a nice fringe benefit of my CHI-MKE round trips (cost $48). And no, I'm not happy about that.
rrdude
Engineer
Watch it Sarah, now you are hitting close to home!
Seriously, flowers, "alone" doesn't mean much, but taken in conjunction with everything else....
Told ya so!
Nobody can take a joke, eh? Did you happen to read any of my other responses?
Disclaimer: I'm an NEC rider based out of NYP, but I'm not feeling great about the new AGR so I'm going to share my perspective (if for no other reason than to vent).
I travel most extensively to to BOS. I travel occasionally to PHL and WAS. I get that the "city pairs" were wonky because you could do PVD-BWI and get less than 500 points while someone else traveling just from BOS-STM gets 500, but if the TQPs required for Select Plus and Select Executive stay the same its going to be much harder to earn stays. I qualified for S+ in June and should hit SE in October courtesy of 500 TQPs on my $113 low-bucket tickets to BOs. With the new system I won't come anywhere near spending $10,000 with Amtrak. Based on the current fare structure, I can really only see NYP-WAS travelers qualifying for SE. In fact, if my travel drops slightly next year I may not even qualify for S+. The Club Acela in BOS is about to get even quieter.
Now that it's harder to earn TQPs and points on the Acela (and no 100 point minimum) I wonder if they'll drop the cost of the Club Acela passes and first class upgrades?
I get that I'm not going to get a lot of sympathy from most on this board as a business traveler who has my Acela business fare paid for me, but please know that as an NEC-North customer I'm also feeling like I'm losing something with the "new and improved AGR."
I travel most extensively to to BOS. I travel occasionally to PHL and WAS. I get that the "city pairs" were wonky because you could do PVD-BWI and get less than 500 points while someone else traveling just from BOS-STM gets 500, but if the TQPs required for Select Plus and Select Executive stay the same its going to be much harder to earn stays. I qualified for S+ in June and should hit SE in October courtesy of 500 TQPs on my $113 low-bucket tickets to BOs. With the new system I won't come anywhere near spending $10,000 with Amtrak. Based on the current fare structure, I can really only see NYP-WAS travelers qualifying for SE. In fact, if my travel drops slightly next year I may not even qualify for S+. The Club Acela in BOS is about to get even quieter.
Now that it's harder to earn TQPs and points on the Acela (and no 100 point minimum) I wonder if they'll drop the cost of the Club Acela passes and first class upgrades?
I get that I'm not going to get a lot of sympathy from most on this board as a business traveler who has my Acela business fare paid for me, but please know that as an NEC-North customer I'm also feeling like I'm losing something with the "new and improved AGR."
BCL
Engineer
Well - I don't think there were really that many points runs compared to people who simply had short regular trips and were AGR members. However, the points run earners were probably the most likely to want to get the most out of their points. My EMY-GAC commute ride is $18 or less with a discount, and I'll gladly pay that periodically in place of getting a $106 10-ride. However, regardless of whether or not the minimum was eliminated to deal with deliberate points runs or just because they wanted to create a more "rational" system, that's the way it's going to be. Yeah - I had about 36,000 points at one time, and only part of it came from partner programs. And there's no way I even spent more than $5000 on Amtrak travel in that time frame. It was the short commute rides, split segments, and the occasional points run that got me to that point.
What's the joke about what people want? They want to spend the absolute least and get the absolute most. We all understand that. In fact a lot of the talk about these loopholes was a case study in that.
You know what? To the average person who hasn't heard of AGR and sees this for the first time, it actually makes sense. Most credit cards rewards are a point per penny spent (plus some bonuses for specific spending), and $10,000 in spending can typically get a $100 worth of merchandise or maybe somewhat discounted travel. However, for the new AGR $5000 in spending earns at least 10,000 points, and just those base points can be redeemed for about $290 worth of travel.
OlympianHiawatha
Engineer
Unless something changes on the "new" AGR Card the only way to get 10,000 Points for $5,000 spending is for that spendiing to be on Amtrak.
BCL
Engineer
But the average person looking at this for the first time probably isn't thinking of a rewards credit card in conjunction with AGR, but for what you get out of that Amtrak transaction in terms of Amtrak redemptions. Granted the vast majority of my Amtrak spending was with a credit card, so I wasn't just getting AGR points but other points. That's probably similar to most other purchases these days.
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BCL
Engineer
I paid for it all myself. However, I remember during the last Double Days I had (I think) 4800 double points and still had some days with 3 minimum point segments. So it was probably about 5300 TQPs, and I don't think I spent more than $500. I was getting a really good point bargain out of that in terms of point earning. Altogether I doubt that I spent more than $1800 on Amtrak last year even when I managed to make S+. If it was solely about travel, then none of what I did made any sense, as I could have gotten from point A to point B and back cheaper with 10-ride tickets.
And so far I haven't been able to use my club privileges much. I gave away my Select ClubAcela passes because I couldn't figure out how to use them, and I went out of my way to get to a UnitedClub location last month.
Not according to post #409.
DITTO!
BCL
Engineer
I guess the strange thing about the 100-point minimum (outside of pure point runs) was that without it I wouldn't have taken so many individual and split trips (during my commute) in a quest to collect 100-point segments. A lot of those split trips were time wasters and if my wallet was the sole concern I would have just bought 10-ride tickets. Even when I could find a promotional discount, I was spending a good 15% more per one-way trip just chasing points and status. I suppose the exception was when I found a 50% promotional discount for a weekday. I read through the terms and there didn't seem to be anything except 3-day advance purchase and using specific stations.
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
I have no idea. I've never once been on a points run myself. Has it ever occurred to you that the vast majority of the country doesn't have anything like this as an option?
Most of the posts I read were merely expressing their disapproval and concern for how average travelers would view the changes, but I guess that doesn't fit into your continuing narrative. Your repeated attempts to target and marginalize those who disagree with your position on amenities is getting old. Maybe you should just give it a rest rather than pretending you're still just joking after going out of your way to beat this dead horse longer than anyone else on the entire forum.
