Amtrak Files Complaint With STB against NS and CSX over the CL

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.

afigg

Engineer
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
5,896
Location
Virginia
Hmm, now it is getting interesting with regards to the Capitol Limited delays. I'm starting a new thread on this because Amtrak filing a complaint with the STB against NS and CSX has ramifications and aspects that go beyond the Summer and early Fall of bad delays for the CL and LSL.

Railway Age: Amtrak files complaint with STB over Capitol Limited performance

Excerpt:

Amtrak has filed a complaint with the U.S. Surface Transportation Board against Norfolk Southern and CSX over substandard on-time performance of the Washington D.C.-Chicago Capitol Limited, which operates over right-of-way owned by NS and CSX. Including an earlier complaint filed against CN, this is Amtraks second such action regarding substandard on-time performance of its long-distance trains.

Attorneys Linda J. Morgan, Kevin M. Sheys, and Katherine C. Bourdon of Nossaman, LLP, and Amtrak Managing Deputy General Counsel William H. Herrmann filed the complaint on Nov. 17, 2014, pursuant to 49 U.S.C. 24308(f), to initiate an investigation by the STB.
 
Hmm, now it is getting interesting with regards to the Capitol Limited delays. I'm starting a new thread on this because Amtrak filing a complaint with the STB against NS and CSX has ramifications and aspects that go beyond the Summer and early Fall of bad delays for the CL and LSL.

Railway Age: Amtrak files complaint with STB over Capitol Limited performance

Excerpt:

Amtrak has filed a complaint with the U.S. Surface Transportation Board against Norfolk Southern and CSX over substandard on-time performance of the Washington D.C.-Chicago Capitol Limited, which operates over right-of-way owned by NS and CSX. Including an earlier complaint filed against CN, this is Amtraks second such action regarding substandard on-time performance of its long-distance trains.

Attorneys Linda J. Morgan, Kevin M. Sheys, and Katherine C. Bourdon of Nossaman, LLP, and Amtrak Managing Deputy General Counsel William H. Herrmann filed the complaint on Nov. 17, 2014, pursuant to 49 U.S.C. 24308(f), to initiate an investigation by the STB.
I haven't had time to open the link but just from your summary I wonder why the Lake Shore or even Michigan Service is not included.
 
How come Amtrak needs to hire outside Lawyers, they have a fully staffed Legal Dept and the Dept of Transportation has squads of them not to mention the Armies of Attorneys @ DOJ which is the Governments Lawyers???? ( tongue in cheek)

Once the Supremes decide the pending case about Amtrak's trackage rights perhaps these lawsuits won't be necessary!
 
I haven't had time to open the link but just from your summary I wonder why the Lake Shore or even Michigan Service is not included.
The Railway Age article only has 2 additional (meaty) paragraphs after my excerpt. As for filing for only the CL, the LSL may get a separate filing given the different CSX route if Amtrak is planning a complaint for the LSL as well. Or Amtrak is following a strategy of filing a complaint where they have the strongest and most direct case.
 
I haven't had time to open the link but just from your summary I wonder why the Lake Shore or even Michigan Service is not included.
The Railway Age article only has 2 additional (meaty) paragraphs after my excerpt. As for filing for only the CL, the LSL may get a separate filing given the different CSX route if Amtrak is planning a complaint for the LSL as well. Or Amtrak is following a strategy of filing a complaint where they have the strongest and most direct case.
Or it may be the case that even Amtrak realizes that a significant part of the delay faced by the LSL in upstate New York is really Amtrak's own problems at Albany followed by strange practices followed by Amtrak Conductors at station stops wasting enormous amount of time and always blowing the timetable. ;)
 
I posted this a few weeks back on Trains and I still feel the same and have the same concerns:

While I would like to see better performance out of both the LSL and CL and understand that Amtrak has a right to better service I just hope that NS does not take offense to the STB inquiry. NS and Amtrak appear on the outside to have a good working relationship compared to others such as CN, CSX, and UP. Just do not want NS to step down on its willingness to cooperate with expanded service in other areas they have said they were willing to listen. Just my two cents.
 
In-house lawyers are usually transaction lawyers or HR lawyers, not litigation lawyers. If you want a surgeon, don't go to an internist. In the first action, Amtrak has to litigate on behalf of itself. This is where the question pending at the Supreme Court of whether Amtrak is really the government itself or just a corporation that happens to be controlled and partly owned by the government at this point in time could clarify things.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
One of the posts mentioned something about "once the supremes decide..... about trackage rights...... in a pending case.."

Is there already a case in the Surpreme Court? If so, where can I get a little more info. about it?

Thanks
 
Once the Supremes decide the pending case about Amtrak's trackage rights perhaps these lawsuits won't be necessary!
The case at the SCOTUS is not about trackage rights. Trackage rights have never really been challenged by anyone. The case is about the process for setting standards for measuring performance of host railroads relative to their contracts with Amtrak. Intricately tied in with that appears to be the question of whether Amtrak is a federal government entity or a private entity.
 
Once the Supremes decide the pending case about Amtrak's trackage rights perhaps these lawsuits won't be necessary!
The case at the SCOTUS is not about trackage rights. Trackage rights have never really been challenged by anyone. The case is about the process for setting standards for measuring performance of host railroads relative to their contracts with Amtrak. Intricately tied in with that appears to be the question of whether Amtrak is a federal government entity or a private entity.
Poor choice of words ony part, thanks for the correct info jis! ( I don't speak English, I'm from Texas!)
 
Or, if, besides that it is in part a government creation, it is also a creation and part of each and every U. S. freight railroad. The National Rail Passenger Co, aka, Amtrak is in large part, a ward of CSX, NS, UP, BNSF, and so on. The reverse of this is true as well. It's impossible to debate the merits of moving freight, which are really desirable objects for a market, which is a group of humans wanting and paying for something, and then take those same people in various populations and strand them with over the top lateness and equipment that breaks down. The new way of thinking here is our mindset of commodity: oil, paper and wood products, and car frames are all examples of commodities, which are useless if there are no people to buy them. So commodity must be expanded to include mobility in order for people to stay employed, join with family and friends for some human interaction, go to schools, and in the process will need to burn oil, buy paper and wood products for stationary and housing, and fully assembled autos.
 
Amtrak is of course kind of a federal entity. Case in point is Amtrak Police, which gets it authorization in specific federal law separate from the laws about freight railroad police. State laws may treat them as railroad police or as federal law enforcement; I'm not sure about California. However, most Amtrak Police officers are trained by the federal government.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I posted this a few weeks back on Trains and I still feel the same and have the same concerns:

While I would like to see better performance out of both the LSL and CL and understand that Amtrak has a right to better service I just hope that NS does not take offense to the STB inquiry. NS and Amtrak appear on the outside to have a good working relationship compared to others such as CN, CSX, and UP. Just do not want NS to step down on its willingness to cooperate with expanded service in other areas they have said they were willing to listen. Just my two cents.
They're big boys. They can take the criticism.
 
Amtrak issued a news release on the complaint filed with the STB.

Amtrak Asks Surface Transportation Board to Investigate Norfolk Southern and CSX Railroads. (15 page PDF)

WASHINGTON – Amtrak is taking action to improve the on-time performance (OTP) of its trains that operate over tracks controlled by other railroads. In a complaint filed on Nov. 17, Amtrak is asking the Surface Transportation Board (STB) to investigate Norfolk Southern Railway (NS) and CSX Transportation (CSXT) for causing unacceptable delays for passengers traveling between Chicago and Washington, D.C., on the Capitol Limited service.

Amtrak is taking this action under Section 213 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act which mandates that the STB initiate an investigation upon the filing of a complaint by Amtrak if the on-time performance of an intercity passenger train falls below 80 percent for two consecutive quarters. In addition, under federal law, Amtrak has a statutory right to preference in the dispatching of intercity passenger trains before freight trains.

Due to persistent excessive delays caused by NS and CSXT freight train interference, the OTP of the Capitol Limited at its endpoint terminals was 2.7 percent for the quarter ending Sept. 30, down from an already substandard 33.6 percent the previous quarter. The delays are continuing as Amtrak had to provide bus transportation between Toledo and Chicago for six days in October to better accommodate passengers when Capitol Limited trains had often been eight to ten hours late.

Poor on-time performance creates a major disruption for Amtrak customers due to delayed trains and missed connections. It also negatively impacts Amtrak and state-supported services through decreased ridership, lost revenues and higher operating costs.

Amtrak has taken additional actions to help improve the OTP of passenger trains including filing an amended complaint with the STB seeking an investigation of Canadian National Railway for causing unacceptable delays for passengers on the Illini/Saluki service in Illinois; twice testifying before the STB about the poor OTP of Amtrak trains; and establishing a Blue Ribbon Panel of rail and transportation leaders to identify infrastructure and operational improvements to address rail traffic gridlock in Chicago.
copy of complaint letter follows.
 
Or it may be the case that even Amtrak realizes that a significant part of the delay faced by the LSL in upstate New York is really Amtrak's own problems at Albany followed by strange practices followed by Amtrak Conductors at station stops wasting enormous amount of time and always blowing the timetable. ;)
Yes, the LSL route is more complex with part of the route dispatched by Amtrak and MNRR. Then there are themuddled handling and delays across upper state NY. CSX could point to westbound trains leaving SDY 20 minutes late and, say, see it entered our tracks out of slot, so it was Amtrak's fault to begin with. The CL route is cleaner and dispatched by NS and CSX almost its entire route.
Also, the filings and outside law firms cost money. May be the more cost effective strategy to focus just on the CL if Amtrak is not planning or holding back on filing a complaint on the LSL.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I can't help but wonder (admittedly, I'm pretty ignorant about how these things work) if the 5 1/2 hour delay on the 30 today is a response to Amtrak's complaint. I know the CL has had significant delay issues, hence the complaint, but in the last month the OTP had been fairly good.
 
In-house lawyers are usually transaction lawyers or HR lawyers, not litigation lawyers.
QFT. Unless your business model is based on routine litigation most business lawyers are working on mundane tasks involving drafting and reviewing contracts, researching applicable rules and regulations, and generally avoiding litigation.

Once the Supremes decide the pending case about Amtrak's trackage rights perhaps these lawsuits won't be necessary!
Perhaps they will no longer be necessary because the practical application of OTP standards will be genuinely toothless after the SCOTUS rules on this debate.

I posted this a few weeks back on Trains and I still feel the same and have the same concerns: While I would like to see better performance out of both the LSL and CL and understand that Amtrak has a right to better service I just hope that NS does not take offense to the STB inquiry. NS and Amtrak appear on the outside to have a good working relationship compared to others such as CN, CSX, and UP. Just do not want NS to step down on its willingness to cooperate with expanded service in other areas they have said they were willing to listen. Just my two cents.
They're big boys. They can take the criticism.
They're also big bullies who are likely to respond to the criticism with a call to their buddies in Congress and serving with the Supremes.
 
I can't help but wonder (admittedly, I'm pretty ignorant about how these things work) if the 5 1/2 hour delay on the 30 today is a response to Amtrak's complaint. I know the CL has had significant delay issues, hence the complaint, but in the last month the OTP had been fairly good.
No, it does not work this way. CL #30(11/17) lost 5 hours between Toledo and Sandusky, and LSL #48(11/17) lost over 3 hours. With the cold front pushing through and snow fall in some areas, could be weather related. #49 (11/17) was over 5 hours late by the time it got to Erie while the Buffalo and Erie region is getting hit with a lot of lake effect snow. According to the news, some parts of Erie County, PA already have 3 feet of snow.

Winter is no longer coming, its here.
 
I can't help but wonder (admittedly, I'm pretty ignorant about how these things work) if the 5 1/2 hour delay on the 30 today is a response to Amtrak's complaint. I know the CL has had significant delay issues, hence the complaint, but in the last month the OTP had been fairly good.
I love how everybody thinks the leaders of CSX and NS take this personally and would order the mishandling of Amtrak trains. Today's no different from any other day, both railroads just act incompetently out of practice.
 
Or it may be the case that even Amtrak realizes that a significant part of the delay faced by the LSL in upstate New York is really Amtrak's own problems at Albany followed by strange practices followed by Amtrak Conductors at station stops wasting enormous amount of time and always blowing the timetable. ;)
Yes, the LSL route is more complex with part of the route dispatched by Amtrak and MNRR. Tnen there is long established muddle and delays across upper state NY. CSX could point to westbound trains leaving SDY 20 minutes late and, say, see it entered our tracks out of slot, so it was Amtrak's fault to begin with. The CL route is cleaner and dispatched by NS and CSX almost its entire route.
The LSL route is also disrupted by Amtrak's own trackwork from SDY to POU at the moment, allowing for yet more excuses. The CL makes for a much clearer complaint.

They're also big bullies who are likely to respond to the criticism with a call to their buddies in Congress and serving with the Supremes.
One would hope that they would be smart enough to realize which side their bread is buttered on at the moment. The freight shippers are all mad at them too, and have more influence in Congress than the railroads do. Attempting to throw your weight around politically doesn't work when you don't have as much weight as you think.

If NS is really sensible, they'll immediately blame all the problems on the Auto-Router, announce that they've stopped ordering dispatchers to use it, and say that the problem is therefore fixed. :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Or it may be the case that even Amtrak realizes that a significant part of the delay faced by the LSL in upstate New York is really Amtrak's own problems at Albany followed by strange practices followed by Amtrak Conductors at station stops wasting enormous amount of time and always blowing the timetable. ;)
Yes, the LSL route is more complex with part of the route dispatched by Amtrak and MNRR. Tnen there is long established muddle and delays across upper state NY. CSX could point to westbound trains leaving SDY 20 minutes late and, say, see it entered our tracks out of slot, so it was Amtrak's fault to begin with. The CL route is cleaner and dispatched by NS and CSX almost its entire route.
The LSL route is also disrupted by Amtrak's own trackwork from SDY to POU at the moment, allowing for yet more excuses. The CL makes for a much clearer complaint.

They're also big bullies who are likely to respond to the criticism with a call to their buddies in Congress and serving with the Supremes.
One would hope that they would be smart enough to realize which side their bread is buttered on at the moment. The freight shippers are all mad at them too, and have more influence in Congress than the railroads do. Attempting to throw your weight around politically doesn't work when you don't have as much weight as you think. If NS is really sensible, they'll immediately blame all the problems on the Auto-Router, announce that they've stopped ordering dispatchers to use it, and say that the problem is therefore fixed. :)
Let them be mad. Let them be furious. Let them eat cake. Modern class ones have surprisingly little to fear from the vast majority of shippers. I've seen heavy haul shippers that were good for hundreds of rail cars per day switch to trucking services in order to save time and money. Extended contract shippers have fought class ones in court over high prices and anti-competitive practices only to have their lawsuits tossed before they could go to trial. While there are indeed numerous industries that depend on rail freight there are very few industries (let alone individual companies) that can successfully take on a class one and win. When it comes to throwing weight around which rail shipper has more weight than Berkshire Hathaway Inc?
 
When it comes to throwing weight around which rail shipper has more weight than Berkshire Hathaway Inc?
United Parcel Service, FedEx, Yellow, JB Hunt.
Not to mention all the power companies around the nation that depend on coal shipments, as well as the agricultural industry. Re-regulation of the rail freight industry is a great fear of railroad executives, although now the Sen. Jay Rockefeller from West Virginia has retired and has been replaced by a Republican, the re-regulation effort has probably lot a lot of steam.

Still, railroads need customers and not even Berkshsire Hathaway can ignore loud complaints from big shippers.
 
The equation changes considerably in a situation where the government is evolving to be part of the oligopoly that will not apparently regulate with the interest of the weaker parts of the society, and the railroads in many areas have close to absolute monopoly. Unfortunately it would appear that whether yous tart from dictatorship of the proletariat or the home of democracy, you eventually appear to evolve to about the same or similar state of affairs. Sadly so.

If a power company is getting coal from a captive coalmine of a railroad, and is captive to that railroad, where exactly is it going to go to as an alternative provider of coal transport? Trucks? ;) Similarly with large volume shipment of grain or POL.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top