Amtrak explains why 400 NJ trains were canceled or delayed in July

[AmtrakBlue]

https://www.northjersey.com/story/n...89v7IXSdP0&mibextid=Zxz2cZ#lkb4hfsosaaj1pc358

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The southern portion of the NEC has yet to be updated. Constant tension wires are the standard, of course that not what we have on the southern portion. Temperature effects the wires, expand and contract.

The problem is Amtrak wants to do the southern section as one big project, and not one segment at a time. So much more money is needs to be committed. If they just would start a 10 mile section at a time it would be much easier to fund. Even with the erratic funding from the government.

 

[jis]

The problem is Amtrak wants to do the southern section as one big project, and not one segment at a time. So much more money is needs to be committed. If they just would start a 10 mile section at a time it would be much easier to fund. Even with the erratic funding from the government.

Is there any evidence that Amtrak is refusing to do constant tension by small segments? So far the only known evidence points to just the opposite as Amtrak has been doing constant tension opportunistically on short select segments as funds become available. Witness the New Brunswick - Trenton segment as a starter. They are looking for funding to do a significant segment in pieces in Delaware and Maryland between Wilmington and Baltimore. They are tending to select segments where they can raise speed of Acelas as a selection criteria for segments to consider first.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

They are tending to select segments where they can raise speed of Acelas as a selection criteria for segments to consider first.

So selecting a segment is based on increasing the speed of the Acelas and not the overall condition of the overhead system.

Higher speeds vs System reliability.

Upgrading and replacing to protect the reliability of the Network would be my priority.

Higher speeds are great, but when the network collapses your at a dead stop awaiting emergency repairs before you can travel to your destination.

Triage is needed on the network.

 

[jis]

So selecting a segment is based on increasing the speed of the Acelas and not the overall condition of the overhead system.

Higher speeds vs System reliability.

Upgrading and replacing to protect the reliability of the Network would be my priority.

Higher speeds are great, but when the network collapses your at a dead stop awaiting emergency repairs before you can travel to your destination.

Triage is needed on the network.

That would be a good thing to do. Can you provide any evidence that they are not trying to do so? Afterall, I just said something that I have heard that they are doing. That does not mean they are not trying to do anything else in addition to that. I have not seen how they are planning to address the whole issue beyond applying band aids, which apparently all that they have funding for.

But coming back to these particular defect, the first two had nothing to do with constant or variable tension. They had to do with just backlogged day to day maintenance not attended to due apparently to underfunding (and possibly some mismanagement thrown in for good measure), and for reasons I don't understand, apparently ridiculously high cost of doing such day to day maintenance when compared to the rest of the world. It is mind boggling that significant segments of the infrastructure has not seen cable maintenance and replacement since 1950!

The third case of separation of messenger wire from contact wire may have been caused by catenary sag caused by heat, or it may have separated due to fatigue failure, again due to lack of maintenance. We don't know. So it may or may not have anything to do with constant tension either.

In comparison to what goes on on the NEC, for example in India the 105 km segment 5 tracks to double track and then 4 tracks in various segments, which was originally electrified fixed anchor, 3kV DC catenary in 1956 between Howrah (Kolkata) and Bardhaman, and was converted by changing insulators and feeds to 25kV in 1962, has just been totally re-electrified ground up with constant tension modern catenary, ground up meaning new poles new everything. In general they tend to do complete replacement, including poles that need replacing, every 50-60 years on an ongoing basis. The funds for replacement are planned for and accrued appropriately so as to be available at the expected end of lifetime of the infrastructure. We do not operate that way in this country for anything apparently.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

We do not operate that way in this country for anything apparently.

Well I am few years younger and a bit less travelled, but we never allocate money for maintenance, replace when broken is the policy. Sorry you seem to be asking for an exact source of information. I am going on things said in the past. Amtrak in the past insisted on a complete rebuild not a segment at a time. This needs to change. Just because there upgrade a segment for higher speeds does not mean there doing anything to improve all other sections.

Recently had several interactions with my local power company. They are not proactive on upgrades, but on a Saturday there huge numbers of personnel working to replace down poles, that were past due for repairs. Now they get updated, after the lines have fallen.

When Amtrak have wires go down 400 trains get cancelled. We the traveling public want better.

 

[jis]

When Amtrak have wires go down 400 trains get cancelled. We the traveling public want better.

And yet, we the public cannot seem to be willing or able collectively to provide the necessary funds through our brilliant representatives action. Just carping about it at AU is not going to change that, and therefore nothing will change unless we figure out how to fund such things. If we continue to do foolish things the outcomes will continue to be less than optimal.

Substantially replacing an entire piece of infrastructure is really no an Expanse thing.It is a Capital Project that creates new Capital Asset. If the cost of new catenary between CP County (Jersey Avenue) and CP Fair (Trenton) is any indication, catenary rebuilding between New York and Philly is probably a good couple of Billion Dollars project. It is not something that can be funded piecemeal. Doing replacement ten mile at a time merely increases the voerall cost. The reason electrification costs substantially less elsewhere is because they have a standing technical organization that does rolling projects of electrification. Creating an organization that can do rolling projects in ten mile packages is far from cost effective.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

One of the best construction companies in Connecticut. Would bid on multi bridges at a very low cost. They would have one set of people do a single or group of task at each bridge then move onto the next bridge preform the same group of task. The learning curve would be longer at the first bridge but each one after the crews knew what to do, they would do it faster and better at the following sites. Very cost effective for the state, very profitable for the construction company.

The OP story stated that Amtrak has allocated funds for a second group of machines to rebuild the catenary that has to arrival. Got to start somewhere. You know a section at time. However you need to triage it, not cherry pick the area to get a better performance for your flagship train.

 

[jis]

The OP story stated that Amtrak has allocated funds for a second group of machines to rebuild the catenary that has to arrival. Got to start somewhere. You know a section at time. However you need to triage it, not cherry pick the area to get a better performance for your flagship train.

Did not say anything about rebuilding anything as far as I can tell. Those pieces of equipment are needed to fix the detected defects backlog. There is currently not much fund for rebuilding much. Maybe they will be able to dig up some money on an ongoing basis from BIL. At present Amtrak is funding the rebuilding of the balance of the catenary in NJ that did not get rebuilt because they ran out of money from the original $450 Million given to them by FRA for rebuilding the segment in NJ. To do the entire segment in NJ and PA upto Philly will be couple of Billion or more, especially to do it while trains operate through there,

 

[Touchdowntom9]

But coming back to these particular defect, the first two had nothing to do with constant or variable tension. They had to do with just backlogged day to day maintenance not attended to due apparently to underfunding (and possibly some mismanagement thrown in for good measure), and for reasons I don't understand, apparently ridiculously high cost of doing such day to day maintenance when compared to the rest of the world. It is mind boggling that significant segments of the infrastructure has not seen cable maintenance and replacement since 1950!

Not to get into politics here, but where exactly is the $20B+ that amtrak had earmarked for them in the Infra Bill going if not for projects and maintenance?
And yes very good point regarding cost. Shocking how we cant seem to do anything without paying 5x the going rate for it.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Not to get into politics here, but where exactly is the $20B+ that amtrak had earmarked for them in the Infra Bill going if not for projects and maintenance?
And yes very good point regarding cost. Shocking how we cant seem to do anything without paying 5x the going rate for it.

It was given to the USDot to do what it thinks is best. Therefore we get test train to the airport in Miami, and more studies to consider do things.

 

[daybeers]

I'm sorry, but how can we trust Amtrak to replace the rest of the catenary on NEC South when they bungled the NJ project so badly? More money doesn't automatically equal better. This article sums it up well, albeit with some flaws at the end, but the overall point is sound: the project took far too long and far too much money for the improvements it resulted in.

There needs to be serious investigation about where transit funding is going instead of saying well, the last project was only 24 miles and cost $450 million, so extrapolate that out to the rest of the 200 miles left to replace, and you get $3.75 billion?! That per mile cost is ridiculous and nears the per mile cost of entirely new high-speed rail (200mph) lines.

 

[railiner]

We do not operate that way in this country for anything apparently.

 

[BlackDiamond]

The article in the OP seems to be paywalled. Can someone summarize what it says?

As to the comparison of how things are done here vs India, my impression is that in India the rail system is the backbone of their transportation system and is prioritized accordingly. It would basically correspond to the Interstate Highway System here in the US. Amtrak even the NEC is not looked at the same way so we do not fund it adequately as a result.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

I'm sorry, but how can we trust Amtrak to replace the rest of the catenary on NEC South when they bungled the NJ project so badly? More money doesn't automatically equal better. This article sums it up well, albeit with some flaws at the end, but the overall point is sound: the project took far too long and far too much money for the improvements it resulted in.

I’m certain plenty of politicians and contractors made a killing off that flop of a project.

 

[west point]

Isn't the rising cost of the replacement due to the poles rusting out? As I understand the poles were directly inserted into the soil. Now the replacement poles are connected to concrete potholes. Hope Amtrak is replacing all poles instead of the just rusty ones now. The others will probably rust through in another 10 - 30 years. Also, replacement poles are ~ 120 feet apart for better constant tension support instead of the PRR standard of 180 feet on straight track segments. That means for a 360-foot distance not counting the base point pole Amtrak needs 3 poles instead of the 2 for PRR.

For variable tension maybe a math wiz can calculate the sag at 90 feet for various temp changes.

Potholing is costly. So much care to avoid any underground utilities including buried RR signal and communication lines.

 

[jis]

Isn't the rising cost of the replacement due to the poles rusting out? As I understand the poles were directly inserted into the soil. Now the replacement poles are connected to concrete potholes. Hope Amtrak is replacing all poles instead of the just rusty ones now. The others will probably rust through in another 10 - 30 years. Also, replacement poles are ~ 120 feet apart for better constant tension support instead of the PRR standard of 180 feet on straight track segments. That means for a 360-foot distance not counting the base point pole Amtrak needs 3 poles instead of the 2 for PRR.

For variable tension maybe a math wiz can calculate the sag at 90 feet for various temp changes.

Potholing is costly. So much care to avoid any underground utilities including buried RR signal and communication lines.

In the only segment in NEC South where catenary has been rebuilt, only about half the distance has gotten Constant Tension. The rest has retained anchored catenary but with improved more rigid suspension fixtures. Which implies that at least over half the distance the original poles continue to be used. Also the entire signaling system related cabling has been rebuilt, so striking old signal cables is a non issue when installing new poles.

Apparently they have come to the conclusion that the only portions that need complete catenary replacements are areas where speeds higher than 135-140mph are contemplated. The rest can do with in situ catenary rebuild with better suspension. Suspension replacement has been carried out extensively, though I don't know to what extent cable replacement has been done.

 

[jis]

Not to get into politics here, but where exactly is the $20B+ that amtrak had earmarked for them in the Infra Bill going if not for projects and maintenance?
And yes very good point regarding cost. Shocking how we cant seem to do anything without paying 5x the going rate for it.

That would be $22 Billion and it includes funding for across the board rolling stock replacement, Hudson Tunnels, Baltimore Tunnels and a number of bridges. It will actually require additional funding to address the ambitious plans. Of course wherever replacement projects for trackage on the NEC happens, it will include upgrade of catenary. But the rest, except for higher speed segments will most likely see some basic upgrade like more rigid suspension structures, but will probably not see constant tension at least in this round.

See:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ng-66-billion-infrastructure-funding-rcna4786

 

[west point]

Of course wherever replacement projects for trackage on the NEC happens, it will include upgrade of catenary. See:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ng-66-billion-infrastructure-funding-rcna4786

Hope you are correct but has not happened in the past. Could not believe it when viewing the rebuilt and relocated Newark airport station trackage that variable tension had been restored and added at that station. Not having been there for years is it still old PRR type? Do believe that the various tracks CAT was no longer connected?

At least when NJ Transit rebuilt the connection south of Newark Penn it is constant tension CAT.

 

[west point]

A thought. Maybe Amtrak "hopes" that it can wait for the slower sections be re aligned to 160 then replace with constant tension? Elizabeth "S" curve and Frankford to North PHL as examples.

So, IMO one big project not called for unless it just includes those sections that already are 160 capable. Was it posted some where a few small re alignment projects are in the planning stages close to construction. Even that can be difficult under on going traffic. Essentially have to start with alignments that will be outside of present tracks. Then move one track at a time to new alignment. There will be a lot of cut and throw work.

I would think with NJ's condemnation laws it can help. That way NJ Transit can eventually run 125 MPH limited stop commuter service? Compared to MARC 125 service.

 

[jis]

Hope you are correct but has not happened in the past. Could not believe it when viewing the rebuilt and relocated Newark airport station trackage that variable tension had been restored and added at that station. Not having been there for years is it still old PRR type? Do believe that the various tracks CAT was no longer connected?

At least when NJ Transit rebuilt the connection south of Newark Penn it is constant tension CAT.

What connection south of Newark Penn are you referring to?

The only constant tension catenary that NJT has ever installed is between Matawan and Long Branch.

Many mistakenly believe that the extension of electrification from Bay Street Montclair through the Montclair Connection to Great Notch is constant tension. It is not. Those are the only two electrification extensions that NJT has ever done.

 

[west point]

What connection south of Newark Penn are you referring to?

.
The Lehigh line connection at Hunter. At one time it was just a single track non electrified connection as part of the Aldine plan. Where ever it was can remember seeing 2 EMU sets stored at mid day under new CAT.

Too many years ago when riding in from Bound Brook

 

[jis]

.
The Lehigh line connection at Hunter. At one time it was just a single track non electrified connection as part of the Aldine plan. Where ever it was can remember seeing 2 EMU sets stored at mid day under new CAT.

That is standard PRR style catenary. Not constant tension.