Amtrak and Vermont

[Septa9739]

I was reading the 2021 Vermont Rail plan and I‘d like to draw attention two areas that have developed since its publication.

1. The Burlington extension of the Ethan Allen Express was expected to bring 20,739 additional riders to Vermont by 2040. That seems very likely to be exceeded this year. I looked forward to seeing the numbers after the extension celebrates 1 year at the end of this month. There are currently no immediate plans for a second frequency over this route and only long term plans for service via Bennington. Is it possible that Vtrans reconsiders a second Ethan Allen Express sooner than later? They already paid for all the capital work, and the report says 79mph operation will bear little ridership increase, so there’s no need to wait.

2. The report places a lot of emphasis on an extensionof the Vermonter to Montreal and a willingness to do what it takes financially to add 117k new in-state riders (almost tripling 2019 levels), plus however many pass throughs. What does this look like in light of the current CN debacle. It looks to be like there is no way to Montreal from Essex Junction but over CN. Could VT’s push drag NY and the Adirondack over the finish line too? If that forecast is accurate, it would seem prudent for VT to get it done.

 

[fdaley]

A second frequency seems like it would be more easily achieved in the near term, although I have heard only vague talk of this idea from Vermont officials and advocates. One issue is that the trip from Burlington to New York is nearly eight hours, so a second frequency would probably have to be no more than about four hours different from the current schedule without getting into extreme times at one end or the other. Southbound, a 6 a.m. departure from Burlington as well as the current 10 a.m. run, with northbound trains leaving New York at, say, 11:20 a.m. and 3:15 p.m. would work and could help to boost overall ridership by providing meaningful schedule alternatives.

Running through to Montreal offers the potential for the Vermont trains to carry a lot more riders, but I fear the Adirondack's suspension makes that goal much more remote. There really is no alternate route for a train from St. Albans to get to Montreal other than the CN route that the Adirondack was using -- although the Vermont train would skip the worst, slowest part of that (from Cantic into Rouses Point). Running through to Montreal also adds two-plus hours to the schedule, so you wind up with probably only one workable schedule via the Ethan Allen route, unless you go overnight, but of course there are probably no sleepers available for that.

The other big question with Montreal service is what happens with customs inspections. The plan for pre-clearance at Gare Central seems hopelessly stalled, and the customs agencies don't like doing on-board inspections. There has been talk of building a new facility at the border where they could have everyone pile off the trains for inspection, but if the experience with the Maple Leaf is any guide, we can expect that would kill two-thirds to three-quarters of the potential ridership, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of extending the route across the border.

 

[JWM]

This whole debacle just reeks of third world posturing. Customs clearance at Gare Central is not rocket science and can be attained with some modifications to the terminal. Of course, there would be no stops between the frontier and Gare Central. All the government entities must get together and "sit" on CN until they upgrade the track and cut the travel time. Anything else is just blowing smoke.

 

[demonizedwater]

The problem is deeper than that. The whole US/Canada land border reeks of this kind of posturing -- 20 years is long enough for the post-9/11 security theater to last. Go back to cursory checks of driver's license/ID (especially now that Real ID is a thing), and occasional spot checks of passports.

The current process is an enormous waste of time for all modes of transport. Last time I drove back to the US from Canada (as a US citizen), they gave me the 3rd degree as to why I chose to come back through a smaller crossing in VT rather than the main autoroute crossing on 87. (I wanted to see something other than boring interstate and not paying tolls was a bonus.) Busybodies who want to be seen as doing something.

This whole debacle just reeks of third world posturing. Customs clearance at Gare Central is not rocket science and can be attained with some modifications to the terminal. Of course, there would be no stops between the frontier and Gare Central. All the government entities must get together and "sit" on CN until they upgrade the track and cut the travel time. Anything else is just blowing smoke.

 

[JWM]

The problem is deeper than that. The whole US/Canada land border reeks of this kind of posturing -- 20 years is long enough for the post-9/11 security theater to last. Go back to cursory checks of driver's license/ID (especially now that Real ID is a thing), and occasional spot checks of passports.

The current process is an enormous waste of time for all modes of transport. Last time I drove back to the US from Canada (as a US citizen), they gave me the 3rd degree as to why I chose to come back through a smaller crossing in VT rather than the main autoroute crossing on 87. (I wanted to see something other than boring interstate and not paying tolls was a bonus.) Busybodies who want to be seen as doing something.

Prior to 9/11 and crossing from Derby Line to Stanstead, the Canadian Customs fellow was using the men's room. We were cleared to enter Canada by his American counterpart. They knew each other very well, their families celebrated St. Jean de Baptiste Day, Canada Day and July 4th together. Indeed, the border goes down between the stage and the audience seating at the local Opera House. Those were the days. I concur with your point. There is no valid reason why we can't have a U.S./Canada "Schengen Agreement" like the E.U.

 

[jiml]

Prior to 9/11 and crossing from Derby Line to Stanstead, the Canadian Customs fellow was using the men's room. We were cleared to enter Canada by his American counterpart. They knew each other very well, their families celebrated St. Jean de Baptiste Day, Canada Day and July 4th together. Indeed, the border goes down between the stage and the audience seating at the local Opera House. Those were the days. I concur with your point. There is no valid reason why we can't have a U.S./Canada "Schengen Agreement" like the E.U.

Such was proposed under previous administrations. Details were posted in another forum here. Since then several elections have happened in both countries. We have not had a US-friendly government since 2015 and the current one plays the anti-American card ever time they need to stir things up. It's not exactly roses in the other direction either, so not hard to see how things get magnified at the border.

 

[jis]

MODERATOR'S NOTE: An ever so slight nudge back to discussing Amtrak and Vermont and away from the rich subject of US - Canada politics in general.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.

 

[JWM]

Such was proposed under previous administrations. Details were posted in another forum here. Since then several elections have happened in both countries. We have not had a US-friendly government since 2015 and the current one plays the anti-American card ever time they need to stir things up. It's not exactly roses in the other direction either, so not hard to see how things get magnified at the border.

With friends on both sides of the border and thousands of Canadian "Snowbirds" here in Sarasota, Florida, I sadly have to agree with you. Be it pipelines or whatever, there seems to always be tension. We spent a lot of time in Quebec during the 1990's when the P.Q. was at its peak. My French is accented, and I would get occasional sneers until the offender realized I was American. As you are in "Southern Ontario", you know that the "Maple Leaf" goes through, but the "circus" at the frontier takes too much time. I have hopes that wiser heads will prevail and thank you for your post.

 

[dadonatrain]

For fun, I thought I might check Amtrak.com for a trip from New York to somewhere in Vermont I’ve never been to (which is everywhere in VT). I plugged in NYP-BTN (Burlington) and a random date and let Amtrak give me schedules and routes. The first choice was the Ethan Allen Express, a single day trip on the date I picked at random. The second choice was—I’m not making this up! And I agree it would work—the Cardinal to Chicago, the Lake Shore Ltd to Schenectady, and then the Ethan Allen the rest of the way! Okaayyy…just thought I’d share this with other Amtrak fans for laughs, or at least maybe smiles?

 

[Bob Dylan]

For fun, I thought I might check Amtrak.com for a trip from New York to somewhere in Vermont I’ve never been to (which is everywhere in VT). I plugged in NYP-BTN (Burlington) and a random date and let Amtrak give me schedules and routes. The first choice was the Ethan Allen Express, a single day trip on the date I picked at random. The second choice was—I’m not making this up! And I agree it would work—the Cardinal to Chicago, the Lake Shore Ltd to Schenectady, and then the Ethan Allen the rest of the way! Okaayyy…just thought I’d share this with other Amtrak fans for laughs, or at least maybe smiles?

Believe it or not there are rail fans that make such trips, aka "The Long Way!"

 

[Silophant]

Oh yeah, the site is insistent on giving you at least three options if at all possible. When I look at booking from St. Paul to Chicago, usually it spits out the Empire Builder direct, the Empire Builder to Milwaukee with a transfer to the Hiawatha, and something with a thruway bus, but every so often it'll suggest a five-night odyssey on the Builder to Portland, the Coast Starlight down to Emeryville, then the California Zephyr to finally get to Chicago most of a week later.

 

[lordsigma]

I recently rode the Ethan Allen Express for the first time out of Burlington VT. The train is stored overnight in a small yard just south of the station. If you count its shove up from the yard to the station this train changes directions 3 times during the trip and thus runs with an engine on both ends. The Burlington station has by far the largest and nicest waiting room in Vermont - housed in what appears to be a former tourist information center in the lower level of the historic union station. Like many other Vermont stations, Burlington is staffed by a caretaker. The train shoved up from the yard about 10 minutes before departure. A P42DC led the train into the station followed by an Amfleet club dinette, 4 coaches, and an Empire Service P32ACDM on the other end which would lead the train south to Rutland. I sat in business. After departure I was treated to beautiful views of Lake Champlain and Adirondacks and further south beautiful views of fields and farmland with mountains in the background. It was a perfect sunny day right after snowfall so it was the perfect winter ride complete with the mist generated by the train pushing aside fresh powder snow from the tracks. At the next intermediate stops - Ferrisburgh-Vergennes and Middlebury the train picked up more passengers and eventually arrived in Rutland where there is a rather lengthy stop where I had time to get off for a bit. Rutland has a fairly new small station with the only high level (albeit small) platform in Vermont. It is located essentially in a Wal Mart parking lot strangely located right across the street from historic downtown Rutland. A rather unique stop. After doing it’s station work the train again switches directions with the P42 now leading and myself in business now traveling backwards. I had lunch in the cafe shortly after departing Rutland and at the Castleton stop someone who was either a rail fan or family of a passenger gave the crew a container of cookies which they thoroughly enjoyed. At Whitehall after getting on to Canadian Pacific we took the siding for the meet with the northbound Adirondack - I got the impression this meet is a bit challenging to time right since the Adirondack returned and sometimes results in a little bit of delay. After crossing the Hudson from downtown Albany the train took the north leg of the Rensellear wye where it again reversed directions before pulling into the station so that the P32 was leading for the journey south to New York City. At Rensellear station where I disembarked the P42 was removed from the rear of the train and the train departed with just the P32 leading.

 

[jiml]

I recently rode the Ethan Allen Express for the first time out of Burlington VT. The train is stored overnight in a small yard just south of the station. If you count its shove up from the yard to the station this train changes directions 3 times during the trip and thus runs with an engine on both ends. The Burlington station has by far the largest and nicest waiting room in Vermont - housed in what appears to be a former tourist information center in the lower level of the historic union station. Like many other Vermont stations, Burlington is staffed by a caretaker. The train shoved up from the yard about 10 minutes before departure. A P42DC led the train into the station followed by an Amfleet club dinette, 4 coaches, and an Empire Service P32ACDM on the other end which would lead the train south to Rutland. I sat in business. After departure I was treated to beautiful views of Lake Champlain and Adirondacks and further south beautiful views of fields and farmland with mountains in the background. It was a perfect sunny day right after snowfall so it was the perfect winter ride complete with the mist generated by the train pushing aside fresh powder snow from the tracks. At the next intermediate stops - Ferrisburgh-Vergennes and Middlebury the train picked up more passengers and eventually arrived in Rutland where there is a rather lengthy stop where I had time to get off for a bit. Rutland has a fairly new small station with the only high level (albeit small) platform in Vermont. It is located essentially in a Wal Mart parking lot strangely located right across the street from historic downtown Rutland. A rather unique stop. After doing it’s station work the train again switches directions with the P42 now leading and myself in business now traveling backwards. I had lunch in the cafe shortly after departing Rutland and at the Castleton stop someone who was either a rail fan or family of a passenger gave the crew a container of cookies which they thoroughly enjoyed. At Whitehall after getting on to Canadian Pacific we took the siding for the meet with the northbound Adirondack - I got the impression this meet is a bit challenging to time right since the Adirondack returned and sometimes results in a little bit of delay. After crossing the Hudson from downtown Albany the train took the north leg of the Rensellear wye where it again reversed directions before pulling into the station so that the P32 was leading for the journey south to New York City. At Rensellear station where I disembarked the P42 was removed from the rear of the train and the train departed with just the P32 leading.

 

[fdaley]

I recently rode the Ethan Allen Express for the first time out of Burlington VT. The train is stored overnight in a small yard just south of the station. If you count its shove up from the yard to the station this train changes directions 3 times during the trip and thus runs with an engine on both ends. The Burlington station has by far the largest and nicest waiting room in Vermont - housed in what appears to be a former tourist information center in the lower level of the historic union station. Like many other Vermont stations, Burlington is staffed by a caretaker. The train shoved up from the yard about 10 minutes before departure. A P42DC led the train into the station followed by an Amfleet club dinette, 4 coaches, and an Empire Service P32ACDM on the other end which would lead the train south to Rutland. I sat in business. After departure I was treated to beautiful views of Lake Champlain and Adirondacks and further south beautiful views of fields and farmland with mountains in the background. It was a perfect sunny day right after snowfall so it was the perfect winter ride complete with the mist generated by the train pushing aside fresh powder snow from the tracks. At the next intermediate stops - Ferrisburgh-Vergennes and Middlebury the train picked up more passengers and eventually arrived in Rutland where there is a rather lengthy stop where I had time to get off for a bit. Rutland has a fairly new small station with the only high level (albeit small) platform in Vermont. It is located essentially in a Wal Mart parking lot strangely located right across the street from historic downtown Rutland. A rather unique stop. After doing it’s station work the train again switches directions with the P42 now leading and myself in business now traveling backwards. I had lunch in the cafe shortly after departing Rutland and at the Castleton stop someone who was either a rail fan or family of a passenger gave the crew a container of cookies which they thoroughly enjoyed. At Whitehall after getting on to Canadian Pacific we took the siding for the meet with the northbound Adirondack - I got the impression this meet is a bit challenging to time right since the Adirondack returned and sometimes results in a little bit of delay. After crossing the Hudson from downtown Albany the train took the north leg of the Rensellear wye where it again reversed directions before pulling into the station so that the P32 was leading for the journey south to New York City. At Rensellear station where I disembarked the P42 was removed from the rear of the train and the train departed with just the P32 leading.

I believe the second direction change at Rensselaer is something they started doing in recent months. Previously the Ethan Allen went directly into the station there, and both engines continued all the way to NYP.

 

[lordsigma]

Maybe it’s so the equipment is more easily interchangeable at New York with other services.

 

[Amtrak25]

Had there been dual mode locos at each end northbound, the wying at Ren would not have been necessary. The engine that is added in the rear northbound takes the train southbound from Rutland to Sunnyside normally.

 

[fdaley]

Maybe it’s so the equipment is more easily interchangeable at New York with other services.

That makes sense. And there's no reason for that second locomotive to go all the way to New York when it's only really needed for the sake of getting in and out of Rutland. It's still interesting to me that they go to the trouble of reversing again rather than just pulling off whichever locomotive is on the back at Rensselaer -- is it to reorient the train so that forward-facing seats out of Burlington are again forward facing? Or in this case did they want the P32 to be on the point south of Rensselaer?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

That makes sense. And there's no reason for that second locomotive to go all the way to New York when it's only really needed for the sake of getting in and out of Rutland. It's still interesting to me that they go to the trouble of reversing again rather than just pulling off whichever locomotive is on the back at Rensselaer -- is it to reorient the train so that forward-facing seats out of Burlington are again forward facing? Or in this case did they want the P32 to be on the point south of Rensselaer?

Don't the P32's have what's needed for using the 3rd rail to get to NYP?

 

[PVD]

Don't the P32's have what's needed for using the 3rd rail to get to NYP?

yes, they will run on 3rd rail a short distance at the end of the West Side cut into NYP