AMTK-Excutive Sleeper? and Sleeper car set off service

[steamtrain6868]

The practice of setting off Pullman cars at late hours of the night at key locations was practiced by the the Erie in Bingahamton NY and Erie PA. A number of stations had there own mini steam powerplants( there was one in Binghamton on the EL) that kept Sleepers warm when they were dropped off at the Odd hours of the night. The Executive sleeper was one of these trains were passengers were dropped on a side track in Penn Station and allowed to sleep in (Till 900am?). I was wondering...Though this did not work before in the east would this be a good idea for the Midwest were places like Cleveland and Toledo get trains at the Witching Hours of 12-5 am in the Morning because the schedules are built around East Coast Travelers? Cleveland has had Private RR cars parked by the Stadium before.

http://www.railforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/11/6225.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_Shoreliner

http://www.bullsheet.com/news/199404.html---Amtrak's Executive Sleeper Suspended

Amtrak's Executive Sleeper between Washington and New York has been suspended temporarily due to an equipment shortage.

 

[Anderson]

I think an "Executive Sleeper" setup might work on the NEC between Boston, NYC, Philly, and DC...but outside of that, the numbers wouldn't be there. The main thing is that to "drop" a sleeper somewhere and have it make sense to do so, you really need to have close to a carload of passengers taking that sleeper route (or a shorter one) on a regular basis. The other possibility would be doing one in Pittsburgh on the CL...and there, the amount of business to/from Chicago might allow that option to make sense.

 

[rrdude]

The practice of setting off Pullman cars at late hours of the night at key locations was practiced by the the Erie in Bingahamton NY and Erie PA. A number of stations had there own mini steam powerplants( there was one in Binghamton on the EL) that kept Sleepers warm when they were dropped off at the Odd hours of the night. The Executive sleeper was one of these trains were passengers were dropped on a side track in Penn Station and allowed to sleep in (Till 900am?). I was wondering...Though this did not work before in the east would this be a good idea for the Midwest were places like Cleveland and Toledo get trains at the Witching Hours of 12-5 am in the Morning because the schedules are built around East Coast Travelers? Cleveland has had Private RR cars parked by the Stadium before.

http://www.railforum...ic/11/6225.html

http://en.wikipedia....ight_Shoreliner

http://www.bullsheet.../199404.html---Amtrak's Executive Sleeper Suspended

Amtrak's Executive Sleeper between Washington and New York has been suspended temporarily due to an equipment shortage.

Perhaps in some instances/routes it would. But Amtrak would need a real surplus, and I mean surplus to effect that. Don't see that happening.

 

[Anderson]

Like I said...the markets aren't going to be there on a lot of routes, so unless Amtrak winds up with equipment to burn...not happening. The only other way you're going to get it is if Amtrak gets the sleepers added to the trains it wants to add them to and it has two "leftover" sleepers and no routes to add to at the moment with only two trains needed on the route.

 

[Gratt]

I agree with Anderson, I could see this happening on the NEC with BOS NYP and DC respectively.

Maybe Cleavland would be next after that, but if I was an Amtrak exec I would add another sleeper to the whole train first, and then if I see close to a car load getting on/off at an Ohio stop I would consider it.

But as rrdude said Amtrak needs more sleepers, desperately. There is a reason they are bringing back older ones for crew use.

 

[the_traveler]

The only place that I could see that happening (IF there were enough sleepers) would be NYP and WAS (and maybe PHL). BOS I would say no, because it arrives ~8 AM and is the last stop. But as said, there are no excess sleepers.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Everybody probably knows this but in the preAmtrak past there were set out sleepers truly all across the country.

For example, I have in front of me a Southern RR timetable dated January 1956. It shows 17 major trains between various points and of these fully eleven have set out sleepers. Eleven out of 17 is quite a bit.

Of those 17, 16 of them have cars set on and out enroute just because of traffic demographics and demand without reference to odd hours.

As stated already there has to be a back drop of regular passengers to make this even remotely feasible.

 

[steamtrain6868]

How long would it take them to make the switch? and to be without HEP power for how long? Try doing this on the Rutland RR with -0 temps. and yes I bet they did it too.

 

[Sam31452]

Wasn't there once in the eighties such a thing as a BOS-NYP Sleeper?

In Europe this setting off is only done by the swedish railways, the point of set off is Stockholm main station.

 

[caravanman]

Although I was trained as a steam boiler operative on Btitish Rail in the late 1970's, it was an oil fired boiler on a modern loco, to heat older coaches, hauled by a diesel electic loco... When did the last steam heated coaches run in USA ?

Ed

 

[steamtrain6868]

Had to be 1970s even after amtrak...The GG1s Electrics were so big becase they also had boilers for passenger cars heat

 

[GG-1]

Had to be 1970s even after amtrak...The GG1s Electrics were so big becase they also had boilers for passenger cars heat

Aloha

The Boiler in a GG-1 isn't that big because all it was for was to heat older passenger cars. Most of it's size is because of the transformer and the 6000 horsepower motors turning its 6 axles.

 

[the_traveler]

Had to be 1970s even after amtrak...The GG1s Electrics were so big becase they also had boilers for passenger cars heat

Aloha

The Boiler in a GG-1 isn't that big because all it was for was to heat older passenger cars. Most of it's size is because of the transformer and the 6000 horsepower motors turning its 6 axles.

That there is a lot of hot air - just like the poster!

(the_traveler is run out of town on the rails!)

 

[railiner]

Back in the days of the Pullman Company, a large percentage of railroad travel was by businessmen or 'commercial travelers'. They had a need to travel to many cities that were not large enough to originate or terminate a train at convenient hours, and the set-out sleeper on a through train solved the problem. Back in those days, air travel was a luxury only for the wealthy, so salesmen would spend the day making salescalls, and instead of staying at a hotel, would spend the night in a Pullman, travelling while they slept.

This market has pretty well 'gone with the wind'. Hence there are few markets today that would sustain a setout sleeper, even if there were an abundance of available cars.

 

[dlagrua]

It was also common practice back in the day to allow sleeper passengers who arrived early at their destination to sleep on the train for a few hours after it arrived at the station. Say you arrived at 4 or 5AM, you had until 8 or 9 AM to detrain. The difference is that sleepers were plentyful back then. There were 1000's in service, many owned and operated by The Pullman Company. Today I believe Amtrak owns well under 100 sleeper cars total nationwide. Does anyone know what the exact number is?

 

[Anderson]

I think it's over 100...IIRC, there are about 50 Viewliners, and I think you've probably got slightly more Superliner sleepers in the mix as well (there are 5 trains that use the Viewliners: SS, SM, Crescent, Cardinal, and LSL; there are seven/eight trains that do Superliners: CS, EB, CZ, SWC, [TE, SL,] CL, CONO). Moreover, I think that the four CHI-West Coast trains have at least four consists (and I'd be quite surprised if the EB and CZ didn't need at least five sets...46 hours would make for a lot of tight turns, and 51 hours? Not happening with four...it might even need six given the arrival times). But it's definitely below 200 right now, that's for sure.

 

[George Harris]

In the 1920's the country's largest hotel chain was the Pullman Company, and all their hotels had wheels under them.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I first learned about set out sleepers in my hometown of Chattanooga. Southern RR's Tennessean arrived Chattanooga at 3.35 am from Memphis. A sleeper was detached there. The train itself left at 4 am to Knoxville, Washington, NYC. But that set out sleeper could be occupied up until 7.30 am. You could get off any time between arrival and 7.30.

In the other direction the set out sleeper to Memphis could be boarded any time from 9.30 forward. The train itself did not arrive from NY, Washington, Knoxville etc until about 12.01 midnight. Departed at 12.35am.

The way I found out about set out sleepers was by accident. We were at the station one morning putting my sister on the train to Birmingham. I saw this seemingly idle, seemingly empty sleeper just sitting there by its lonesome. How surprised I was when I saw real,, live people exiting it. I thought "Who are these fools? What were they doing roaming around an empty idle sleeping car?"

As fascinated as I am by the topic, I only actually rode set out sleepers once. That was on the Panama Limited, very fast overnight Illinois Central train from Chicago to NOL. As I recall it went through Memphis about 11 pm northbound but the set out sleepers, two or three as I remember,were boarded about 9. Coming back from Chicago, we arrived Memphis at 3 something am and could sleep up until about 8 if we chose.

 

[steamtrain6868]

How did the Pullman company make there money? How did the railroads charge them or split the revenue for service?...Were they owned as a co-op by the railroads like REA was or were they a sub contractor.....Somehow the idea of sub contrcating out sleepers in a Amtrak era to a major hotel chain might make some sence.

 

[Eric S]

I think it's over 100...IIRC, there are about 50 Viewliners, and I think you've probably got slightly more Superliner sleepers in the mix as well (there are 5 trains that use the Viewliners: SS, SM, Crescent, Cardinal, and LSL; there are seven/eight trains that do Superliners: CS, EB, CZ, SWC, [TE, SL,] CL, CONO). Moreover, I think that the four CHI-West Coast trains have at least four consists (and I'd be quite surprised if the EB and CZ didn't need at least five sets...46 hours would make for a lot of tight turns, and 51 hours? Not happening with four...it might even need six given the arrival times). But it's definitely below 200 right now, that's for sure.

According to On Track On Line, there are 113 Superliner sleeping cars. Adding the 50 Viewliner sleeping cars, there are evidently 163 Amtrak sleeping cars in active service today.

 

[Anderson]

How did the Pullman company make there money? How did the railroads charge them or split the revenue for service?...Were they owned as a co-op by the railroads like REA was or were they a sub contractor.....Somehow the idea of sub contrcating out sleepers in a Amtrak era to a major hotel chain might make some sence.

As I understand it, the RRs got a standard coach fare out of everyone, and then got a "parlor car/first class" fare out of the sleeper folks (as well as, on some routes, non-Pullman riders). The Pullman company then threw their charges on top of that, which covered their costs. The big difference between now and then is that the base fares were far higher...imagine if Amtrak was able to charge the highest two buckets on most routes and keep a respectably full train without the revenue management (say, second highest bucket for a round trip or for advance purchases, shifting to the highest bucket for purchases a few days before the trip). That was how the RR's made money. To put this another way, if Amtrak could increase coach fares on their LD routes by 75% and add one more full coach car to each train, then the Auto Train and Empire Builder might well be in the black, and the others...you'd cut your red ink dramatically elsewhere.

Add in the fact that sleeper passengers of old had to pay for dinner, and that's just a bit more black ink added to operations (though the net losses of the diners probably "washed" that out).

 

[zephyr17]

How did the Pullman company make there money? How did the railroads charge them or split the revenue for service?...Were they owned as a co-op by the railroads like REA was or were they a sub contractor.....Somehow the idea of sub contrcating out sleepers in a Amtrak era to a major hotel chain might make some sence.

As I understand it, the RRs got a standard coach fare out of everyone, and then got a "parlor car/first class" fare out of the sleeper folks (as well as, on some routes, non-Pullman riders). The Pullman company then threw their charges on top of that, which covered their costs. The big difference between now and then is that the base fares were far higher...imagine if Amtrak was able to charge the highest two buckets on most routes and keep a respectably full train without the revenue management (say, second highest bucket for a round trip or for advance purchases, shifting to the highest bucket for purchases a few days before the trip). That was how the RR's made money. To put this another way, if Amtrak could increase coach fares on their LD routes by 75% and add one more full coach car to each train, then the Auto Train and Empire Builder might well be in the black, and the others...you'd cut your red ink dramatically elsewhere.

Add in the fact that sleeper passengers of old had to pay for dinner, and that's just a bit more black ink added to operations (though the net losses of the diners probably "washed" that out).

As Anderson said, for Pullman travel, the RRs charged a "First Class" rail fare that was more expensive than the coach fare. The Pullman accomodation charge for the room itself was on top of that and went entirely to Pullman. One of the advantages of Slumbercoaches and, before that, "tourist" sleeping cars, was that the rail fare portion was the coach fare, not the First Class fare that one paid on a regular Pullman.

Another source of revenue was that any food and beverage service in a car that had Pullman sleeping car accomodations had to be provided by Pullman, so they got the liquor revenue there. Apparently, Santa Fe was determined to keep Pullman's hands out of their liquor receipts and an end-train sleeper/lounge they had for awhile on either the Chief or Super Chief was just a sitting space with no liquor service. Beverage service was provided in a railroad-owned, non-revenue mid-train lounge car. On the other hand, on Southern Pacific's Lark, the end-train sleeper/lounge it carried that went to Oakland did have Pullman provided beverage service, in addition to the railroad provided service in the mid-train Lark Club.

Also, note that after the Government ordered break-up of the Pullman into the Pullman Company (sleeping car operations) and Pullman-Standard (rail car building) in 1947, the Pullman Company was actually owned by a consortium of the railroads having Pullman service. Part of the operating contract with Pullman was that the railroad had to compensate Pullman for any operating losses on any given Pullman line. The overall expense of the Pullman contracts caused some railroads, notably New York Central, to pull out of Pullman and run the sleepers by themselves. So from 1958 on, the famed 20th Century Limited technically was NOT Pullman.

 

[Karl1459]

The other issue besides availability of sleepers is utilization in terms of revenue miles. A set out sleeper is not generating rolling fare (of course, if it rolls empty it costs more...) An added expense is that the station would have to be staffed from the setout time until checkout time. A third issue is the switching time and equipment. Amtraks current locomotives are not road switchers, which makes breaking the train harder on the crews. Back in the real railroad days I expect there was a switch engine and crew available to handle the setout, not the road crew. With the minimum route system Amtrak has, and with the lack of excess seats, the opportunities for set outs to be an advantage is very limited.

 

[railiner]

How did the Pullman company make there money? How did the railroads charge them or split the revenue for service?...Were they owned as a co-op by the railroads like REA was or were they a sub contractor.....Somehow the idea of sub contrcating out sleepers in a Amtrak era to a major hotel chain might make some sence.

Originally, The Pullman Company was owned by what became the Pullman-Standard Car Manufacturing Company. They both built the cars, and operated them in revenue service.

They had some competition way back, but dominated the business and either bought out or destroyed their competition. Some roads operated sleepers themself. Some ran their own on some routes, and carried Pullman operated cars on others--usually on trains that interchanged with other roads.

When the streamliner era came about, other manufacturers (notably The Budd Company, but also ACF and St. Lous Car), built new sleepers. But the Pullman Company refused to operate them. Eventually, the government anti-monopoly laws compelled Pullman to operate the sleepers built by the other builders. Furthermore, the government forced Pullman to separate the operating company from the manufacturing company. Shortly after that, the railroads purchased the operating company as a cooperative venture, until the company went out of business at the close of the 1960's. The few remaining sleepers were then all operated by the railroads themselves, until the start of Amtrak.

The railroads owned many sleeping cars, and leased them to Pullman Company to operate on their trains. They were painted to match the colors of the road and in some cases specific trains. Pullman also owned a vast number of 'pool service' cars, that would run over any road as needed to supplement the road owner cars.

The roads made money by charging a "first class fare" to a passenger riding in a Pullman operated cars, and the actual charge for the berth, room, or even some parlor car seats went to the Pullman Co.

I have no idea of whether it would be viable for an outside entity to run sleepers on Amtrak, but I doubt if would be. The closest you get now are occasional private car excursions. The American Orient Express, albeit more involved than just sleepers, could not make a go of it.

 

[Palmland]

I guess the question of set out sleepers for Amtrak is really related to the question of how do you switch out (or in) the sleeper from the train. But if a switch engine was available (or if the road crew was permitted to switch the train) there does seem to be a few location where it makes sense because it would improve the availability of sleepers for higher demand routes.

At the top of list would be NYP to ATL. If the Crescent's second sleeper only ran to Atlanta (as in the past), it would free up at least one sleeper for a route that has a high demand, like the Cardinal. Of course this has a downside for us railfans. The relatively lower occupancy rate of sleeper between ATL and NOL tends to keep prices low. Are there other routes where this might be the case? Maybe the CONO south of Memphis. Wouldn't it be nice to board a Chicago sleeper at, say, 8PM in Memphis rather than the train's 10:40 departure time?