ACES Train Fire

[Pullman]

We are just receiving reports that the last car of a northbound Amtrak train has caught fire in the Falls Township section of Bucks Co. This would be just south of the Trenton NJ station.

 

[Pullman]

Latest update the train is a NJ Transit regional rail. One person injured and sent to the hospital. This is still on the NE corridor so it is disrupting all service.

 

[Acela150]

This is the best I can give you.

http://pafirenews.net/messageboard/index.p...9;topicseen#new

check out this website. This would have some more information most likely in the morning.

Stephen

 

[jis]

From railroad.net:

It was an ACES train that caught fire at Grundy Interlocking. (Probably from a stuck handbrake.)

And here is an article in Philly.com which says:

An engine fire in Bucks County aboard a New York-bound train carrying Atlantic City casino patrons temporarily halted train service along a portion of the Northeast Corridor tonight and sent three people to the hospital.
The passengers on the Atlantic City Express Services (ACES) train suffered "non-life-threatening injuries," New Jersey Transit spokeswoman Penny Bassett Hackett said.

They were among 62 riders and four crew members evacuated from the four-car train following the 5:45 p.m. fire, which broke out in Morrisville, below Trenton.

 

[Acela150]

From what I've heard I have no idea on what to believe. I've heard it was in a passenger car, the locomotive, (in which case to P40 which was 4800 would be burned and what I saw on news reports it was barely touched.) I've also heard it was the wires. I have no idea on what to believe. But from what I saw on TV IMHO it looked like the Pan was put up incorrectly at Shore. There was about 1,000 feet of wires down.

 

[jis]

It was the P40 (4800) that caught fire and the heat brought the catenary down according to report.

From railroad.net from an NJT Engineer:

I've been told the train left with pans down, as the power change was moved back to Newark. The wire came down because the flames burned the catenary.

And here is a picture.

Another one from railroad.net:

As for the ACES train, yep, it was P40 4800 on the rear. I got reports that close to 1,400 feet of catenary came down. A fire official interviewed on the news said that the fire self-extinguished. The train was stopped closer to Morris interlocking; the report said passengers were evacuated from the tracks onto Pennsylvania Avenue. As of this moment (0705) only Tracks 3 and 4 are open through the scene; they're still picking up catenary.

 

[Acela150]

Pictures finally posted Here.

 

[battalion51]

I hope there's not a money back guarantee on the P-40's. :lol:

 

[battalion51]

Not sure if anyone else has seen it, but apparently as a result of the fire NJT has pulled the P-40's off the road, at least temporarily.

It makes sense, to a degree. If you had a major fire that put you and Amtrak out a couple of bucks, you'd do some investigating too. But it seems a little odd to me. They've been running diesels under electrics for years, including the P-40/42's without any issues. At least in the short term the ACES sets are using the PL42AC's with a cab car on the north end. Since the PL42 can't fit into the Hudson tunnels the trains are terminating and originating at Newark with NYP bound passengers doing a train change (defeating the one seat concept). I'll be interested to see how long the sideline lasts for. It seems like though with the ALP44's that NJT has allocated for ACES service that they should be able to still run the train out of NYP. Put the cab car on the south end of the train, couple up to the diesel at NWK, run normally with the electric on the north end. On the northbound trip just whack off the diesel on arrival at NWK. Wait, I'm sorry that'd make sense. What was I thinking? :lol:

 

[jis]

It seems like though with the ALP44's that NJT has allocated for ACES service that they should be able to still run the train out of NYP. Put the cab car on the south end of the train, couple up to the diesel at NWK, run normally with the electric on the north end. On the northbound trip just whack off the diesel on arrival at NWK. Wait, I'm sorry that'd make sense. What was I thinking? :lol:

That makes a lot of sense to seasoned HO set operators, but maybe not so much to anyone who has to dispatch Newark Penn Station. :lol:

Now they could do the switching at Hudson Yard, but that will just add cost of additional staff just to do this. Well that is true even for doing it in Penn Station. I am sure no one is willing to foot the bill when fares are going to rise as much as 30% just to cover operating costs this year, and CRDA, which funds the ACES train is running way behind budget on ACES operations already, and looking at its own budget about to be whacked too.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

It seems like though with the ALP44's that NJT has allocated for ACES service that they should be able to still run the train out of NYP. Put the cab car on the south end of the train, couple up to the diesel at NWK, run normally with the electric on the north end. On the northbound trip just whack off the diesel on arrival at NWK. Wait, I'm sorry that'd make sense. What was I thinking? :lol:

That makes a lot of sense to seasoned HO set operators, but maybe not so much to anyone who has to dispatch Newark Penn Station. :lol:

Now they could do the switching at Hudson Yard, but that will just add cost of additional staff just to do this. Well that is true even for doing it in Penn Station. I am sure no one is willing to foot the bill when fares are going to rise as much as 30% just to cover operating costs this year, and CRDA, which funds the ACES train is running way behind budget on ACES operations already, and looking at its own budget about to be whacked too.

So, would you say ACES days are numbered?

 

[jis]

So, would you say ACES days are numbered?

There is a three year contract in place. What will happen after that is an open issue. They will probably drag it along for the three years since it is more or less funded, barring significant additional disasters of course.

 

[battalion51]

I would think that the liability for the fire lies solely with NJT though. Since the locomotive is painted, lettered, and operated by/for NJT it seems like they own it, ACES is just pretty much the single user of the P-40s.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Not sure if anyone else has seen it, but apparently as a result of the fire NJT has pulled the P-40's off the road, at least temporarily.

It makes sense, to a degree. If you had a major fire that put you and Amtrak out a couple of bucks, you'd do some investigating too. But it seems a little odd to me. They've been running diesels under electrics for years, including the P-40/42's without any issues. At least in the short term the ACES sets are using the PL42AC's with a cab car on the north end. Since the PL42 can't fit into the Hudson tunnels the trains are terminating and originating at Newark with NYP bound passengers doing a train change (defeating the one seat concept). I'll be interested to see how long the sideline lasts for. It seems like though with the ALP44's that NJT has allocated for ACES service that they should be able to still run the train out of NYP. Put the cab car on the south end of the train, couple up to the diesel at NWK, run normally with the electric on the north end. On the northbound trip just whack off the diesel on arrival at NWK. Wait, I'm sorry that'd make sense. What was I thinking? :lol:

According to Al Papp of NARP/NJ-ARP (the only person I've heard this story from) the fire was caused by a clogged fuel injector. I question whether that was the case- diesel fuel combusts violently under incredible pressure and heat. The pressure it is under inside its fuel lines is not explosive enough to cause a detonation. And in anycase, if it detonates, it doesn't become a slow fire burning itself out. You'd see parts of the engine in Trenton and Philly and for all I know New York if it really had a catastrophic fuel ignition within its fuel lines.

I'm going to bet you that a fuel return line developed a major leak (its a line that brings unused fuel back to the tank- diesel injectors operate at high enough pressure that most fuel in the line runs by the injectors unused and runs back into the tank for another pickup) and it pooled there until heat from some component (perhaps the HEP generator?) eventually managed to get it to ignite. When ignited by heat alone (it requires a shocking amount of heat- I'd bet you that most diesel road vehicles built before '96 have weepy return lines and their owners neither notice nor care)- diesel burns slowly. I'm not sure what would be hot enough to ignite it, though. Diesel auto-ignition is between 430 and 620° F, depending on the fuel blend.

But I'm confident it didn't ignite in the fuel lines. It wouldn't burn, it would explode. As in no more P40 type explosion. And a clogged fuel line wouldn't produce enough temperature or enough pressure. It would, in most cases, simply bypass the cylinder and go to the return line. The engine would start misfiring and the computer would shut it down.

I would think that the liability for the fire lies solely with NJT though. Since the locomotive is painted, lettered, and operated by/for NJT it seems like they own it, ACES is just pretty much the single user of the P-40s.

Amtrak sold them the units in working order. If it was negligence on Amtrak's part that resulted in the fire, Amtrak could have responsibility in it.

 

[jis]

I would think that the liability for the fire lies solely with NJT though. Since the locomotive is painted, lettered, and operated by/for NJT it seems like they own it, ACES is just pretty much the single user of the P-40s.

I am sure that issue will be completely determined by what is in the liability clause in the agreement between CRDA and NJT, and what lettering appears on the locomotive or cars has very little bearing on the matter.