A bleak map in VIA's Annual Report
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However, the map was within a section discussing corridor services, so maybe it is not as ominous as some see to think it is.
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If you haven't yet been on The Canadian or The Ocean I'd suggest you do it ASAP before they Disappear or become so Expensive and/or Privatized that only the Land Cruise Crowd can Afford to Ride them!! 
The Harper Government is Not a Friend of VIA!!! Sound Familiar? :help:
The Harper Government is Not a Friend of VIA!!! Sound Familiar? :help:
N
Nathanael
Guest
When it comes to train service, Canada is the new Mexico. (I wish I'd ridden some Mexican trains before they were all axed.)
VIA is in the death spiral. It cuts services, resulting in lower revenues, lower ridership, and lower yields. But not significantly lower expenses, because most of the expenses are fixed costs. Rinse and repeat until there are no services.
You'll be lucky if you have any intercity trains by the time Harper leaves office. When is your next chance to get rid of Harper already?
VIA is in the death spiral. It cuts services, resulting in lower revenues, lower ridership, and lower yields. But not significantly lower expenses, because most of the expenses are fixed costs. Rinse and repeat until there are no services.
You'll be lucky if you have any intercity trains by the time Harper leaves office. When is your next chance to get rid of Harper already?
NS VIA Fan
Conductor
VIA is certainly not in a “Death Spiral” and not the “next Mexico”. Last year they cut 1 round trip per week on the Canadian which has since been restored and 3 round trips per week on the Ocean. There was also a train cut between Niagara Falls and Toronto and between Sarnia and Toronto and some corridor adjustments but the “Core” Corridor where people are actually riding trains saw an increase in service.
GO Transit had added all-day bus service on the Niagara Falls route connecting to trains in Burlington and it was the passengers who abandoned the morning VIA train into Toronto and the evening return service for the almost hourly bus-train combination. Same thing happened when GO added service to Kitchener.
Perhaps it’s time that the Canadian is privatized…….at least the First Class portion with the Government still subsidizing coach for those that just have no other choice for transportation. A potential operator could be Rocky Mountaineer who has demonstrated they can run a well used “Land Cruise” type of service. As a taxpayer, why should I be subsidizing your railfan adventure on the Canadian?
Same for the Ocean..... Privatize it! The public long ago voted that they prefer flying or highway travel to rail. For example, today (a Tuesday) on the Ocean you have a capacity of about 250 persons from Halifax and Moncton to Montreal (with connections to Ottawa and Toronto). But flying today you have the following available:
Halifax – Toronto: 1,300 seats
Halifax – Montreal: 750 seats
Halifax – Ottawa: 650 seats
Moncton – Toronto: 450 seats
Moncton – Montreal: 200 seats
Moncton – Ottawa: 200 seats
That’s a total of nearly 3,550 seats today from the Maritimes to Central Canada vs: only 250 seats available on the Ocean (or nearly 25 thousand seats per week each way vs: only 750 available on the Ocean) and that doesn’t include flights from Bathurst and Mont Joli, the Bus or those that just hop in their car and drive the Trans Canada which is now mostly a 4-lane freeway.
Perhaps the Ocean should be cut back to Moncton in the off-season or operate coach only between Moncton and Halifax with “Land Cruise” sleepers running through only during the summer and holidays.
I’ve been on the Ocean a couple of times this past winter and the coaches seemed to be doing a pretty good business but there was almost no one in the sleepers until we reached Moncton and west. They're all on those flights out of YHZ.....2 hrs vs: 24 hrs!
Personally I don’t think the Canadian** or Ocean are going anywhere, anytime soon. They’ll probably be a privatized “Land Cruise” operation with the coach portion subsidized by the government
(**It's to much of an Icon.....what other country puts a train on their $10 Bill!!)
GO Transit had added all-day bus service on the Niagara Falls route connecting to trains in Burlington and it was the passengers who abandoned the morning VIA train into Toronto and the evening return service for the almost hourly bus-train combination. Same thing happened when GO added service to Kitchener.
Perhaps it’s time that the Canadian is privatized…….at least the First Class portion with the Government still subsidizing coach for those that just have no other choice for transportation. A potential operator could be Rocky Mountaineer who has demonstrated they can run a well used “Land Cruise” type of service. As a taxpayer, why should I be subsidizing your railfan adventure on the Canadian?
Same for the Ocean..... Privatize it! The public long ago voted that they prefer flying or highway travel to rail. For example, today (a Tuesday) on the Ocean you have a capacity of about 250 persons from Halifax and Moncton to Montreal (with connections to Ottawa and Toronto). But flying today you have the following available:
Halifax – Toronto: 1,300 seats
Halifax – Montreal: 750 seats
Halifax – Ottawa: 650 seats
Moncton – Toronto: 450 seats
Moncton – Montreal: 200 seats
Moncton – Ottawa: 200 seats
That’s a total of nearly 3,550 seats today from the Maritimes to Central Canada vs: only 250 seats available on the Ocean (or nearly 25 thousand seats per week each way vs: only 750 available on the Ocean) and that doesn’t include flights from Bathurst and Mont Joli, the Bus or those that just hop in their car and drive the Trans Canada which is now mostly a 4-lane freeway.
Perhaps the Ocean should be cut back to Moncton in the off-season or operate coach only between Moncton and Halifax with “Land Cruise” sleepers running through only during the summer and holidays.
I’ve been on the Ocean a couple of times this past winter and the coaches seemed to be doing a pretty good business but there was almost no one in the sleepers until we reached Moncton and west. They're all on those flights out of YHZ.....2 hrs vs: 24 hrs!
Personally I don’t think the Canadian** or Ocean are going anywhere, anytime soon. They’ll probably be a privatized “Land Cruise” operation with the coach portion subsidized by the government
(**It's to much of an Icon.....what other country puts a train on their $10 Bill!!)
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The comparisons of airplane seats and train seats aren't really germane. I could make the same comparison about NY-Florida travel, except with an additional zero on the end of every number.
Via and Amtrak share a problem: what business are they really in, with respect to LD trains? Some would say essential transportation to small towns, even if the numbers are microscopic. Some would say land cruise, that might (or might not) be leveraged into incremental tourism dollars. Some would say that it's about getting people off the highways because the economics of widening and repairing roads have become unfavorable and the economics of thin-route airline service have also become unfavorable. The problem is, each of those business objectives has a different set of financial considerations and a different magnetism for public dollars.
Via and Amtrak share a problem: what business are they really in, with respect to LD trains? Some would say essential transportation to small towns, even if the numbers are microscopic. Some would say land cruise, that might (or might not) be leveraged into incremental tourism dollars. Some would say that it's about getting people off the highways because the economics of widening and repairing roads have become unfavorable and the economics of thin-route airline service have also become unfavorable. The problem is, each of those business objectives has a different set of financial considerations and a different magnetism for public dollars.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
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What is missing in the VIA Maritime Service is the network effect that one finds on the Amtrak Atlantic Coast Service. It is not just the Star and Meteor, but it also involves the Carolinian, the Piedmonts, and peripherally even the Crescent and the Auto Train. That pulls in all sorts of connecting traffic that is completely absent in the VIA case. A more apt comparison would probably be the Sunset Limited, but even that has more network effect involving larger population centers than the VIA Maritime Service. Actually of the Amtrak LD network, overall the Atlantic Coast Service is the closest to breaking even, I believe to quite an extent due to two reasons. One is huge natural flows from huge population centers, and the other is network effect supporting that.
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The SCL operated pre-Amtrak Florida trains without losing tons of money, although they knew that eventually they would have to replace the car and locomotive fleet and there was no business rationale for SCL to finance the replacement. One factor in the ongoing success of Amtrak's Atlantic services, relatively speaking, is rapid population growth in Florida (almost 3X in the last 40 years) and North Carolina (almost 2X). As the saying goes, it's better to be lucky than good. Another factor is economy of scale such as multiple trains at most stations, etc. Another factor is the problems of I-95 (congestion, deterioration despite some improvements, etc).
Unfortunately none of these factors are in play in maritime Canada.
Unfortunately none of these factors are in play in maritime Canada.
fairviewroad
Engineer
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Amtrak's Florida service also doesn't have to take a significant detour due to a line drawn on a map.
TVRM610
Conductor
If you ride the Canadian and then ride the Empire Builder you will see a vast difference in the people and how they are using the train.
The people riding the Canadian are in more of a "land cruise" mode, even if they are using it as transportation.
The people riding the Empire Builder are in more of a transportation mode.
Are either exclusive? no of course not... I did meet people on the Canadian that were taking the train purely for Transit.. and I've met people on Amtrak whose whole vacation was taking the train. But the overall vibe is pretty obvious to me.
The people riding the Canadian are in more of a "land cruise" mode, even if they are using it as transportation.
The people riding the Empire Builder are in more of a transportation mode.
Are either exclusive? no of course not... I did meet people on the Canadian that were taking the train purely for Transit.. and I've met people on Amtrak whose whole vacation was taking the train. But the overall vibe is pretty obvious to me.
The Atlantic Coast Service has also tended to be 3x daily (albeit over two routes). Even in a vacuum, that's a formula for inducing much more usage than 3x weekly service. If you throw in the Auto Train, you've got three options per day to get from DC-Orlando. Moreover, the fact is that Orlando is one of the biggest vacation destinations in America (I forget whether it's at #1 at the moment), southern FL is a big beach destination, and you've got a lot of non-driving snowbirds who come south for the winter on top of the "regular" vacation crowd, and a lot of them aren't up for that much of a drive anymore.
The other thing about the ACS is that you've got a massive amount of "network effect" to feed into it. In DC, you've got the Capitol Limited channeling in traffic from the Midwest, as well as the Cardinal (though I think the official connection may be via RVR) and the Crescent/Lynchburger. In Richmond, you've got the Hampton Roads trains. In Raleigh, you have the Carolinian and Piedmont services (the former also adding a parallel frequency RGH-NYP). In Philly, you've got the Keystone/Pennsylvanian. In New York, you have the Empire Service "and friends" going north, and the NE Regionals/Acelas/Shuttles/Vermonter going northeast.
Finally, there's sheer population and population density. The ACS has a lot of intermediate markets (intrastate within FL, as well as to/from the Carolinas). There's no real equivalent to that in Canada...once you get outside the Corridor, there's not a whole lot (you have Vancouver over two million; Calgary and Edmonton over a million; and Winnipeg at 730k. After that, it's pretty much Halifax (390k), Victoria (345k), and Saskatoon (260k) outside of Ontario/Quebec. This is not the stuff that packed trains are made of, and it's a long road from getting your average person to spend a single night or day on a train and getting them to spend four nights crossing the distance between the ends of the route. Only Calgary/Edmonton/Vancouver form a set of even theoretically workable markets...and there, for all I talk up the possibilities of overnight trains working, it's not like you've got an ideal track situation (or much of a legacy of Edmonton-Calgary service, though I could see such a train selling).
To put the population issue another way, you can put the population of Saskatchewan in Fairfax County, and probably stuff Manitoba in before you get past Fredericksburg. Miami-Dade County is more populous than both put together...heck, you could put every Canadian living off the Corridor network into Florida (including the minority of those in Ontario and Quebec) and have room to spare.
NS VIA Fan: I know the cut was intended to be off-season. Was the Canadian rolled back to 3x daily year-round, or is this just the "summer restoration" you're referring to?.
The other thing about the ACS is that you've got a massive amount of "network effect" to feed into it. In DC, you've got the Capitol Limited channeling in traffic from the Midwest, as well as the Cardinal (though I think the official connection may be via RVR) and the Crescent/Lynchburger. In Richmond, you've got the Hampton Roads trains. In Raleigh, you have the Carolinian and Piedmont services (the former also adding a parallel frequency RGH-NYP). In Philly, you've got the Keystone/Pennsylvanian. In New York, you have the Empire Service "and friends" going north, and the NE Regionals/Acelas/Shuttles/Vermonter going northeast.
Finally, there's sheer population and population density. The ACS has a lot of intermediate markets (intrastate within FL, as well as to/from the Carolinas). There's no real equivalent to that in Canada...once you get outside the Corridor, there's not a whole lot (you have Vancouver over two million; Calgary and Edmonton over a million; and Winnipeg at 730k. After that, it's pretty much Halifax (390k), Victoria (345k), and Saskatoon (260k) outside of Ontario/Quebec. This is not the stuff that packed trains are made of, and it's a long road from getting your average person to spend a single night or day on a train and getting them to spend four nights crossing the distance between the ends of the route. Only Calgary/Edmonton/Vancouver form a set of even theoretically workable markets...and there, for all I talk up the possibilities of overnight trains working, it's not like you've got an ideal track situation (or much of a legacy of Edmonton-Calgary service, though I could see such a train selling).
To put the population issue another way, you can put the population of Saskatchewan in Fairfax County, and probably stuff Manitoba in before you get past Fredericksburg. Miami-Dade County is more populous than both put together...heck, you could put every Canadian living off the Corridor network into Florida (including the minority of those in Ontario and Quebec) and have room to spare.
NS VIA Fan: I know the cut was intended to be off-season. Was the Canadian rolled back to 3x daily year-round, or is this just the "summer restoration" you're referring to?.
NS VIA Fan
Conductor
AFAIK....The Canadian is restored to 3/week for the summer/fall then will revert back to 2/week again for next winter. The Ocean remains at 3/week year ‘round.
Here's another way to look at the population of Canada:
34,482,779 - 2011
Source: World Bank
Population of California:
37,691,912 - Jul 2011
Source: U.S. Census Bureau
Both: www.google.com/publicdata
Population of Ontario, Canada's most populous province:
13.51 million (2012)
Population of Quebec:
8.081 million (2012)
Population of Los Angeles County:
9,889,056 - Jul 2011
Source: U.S. Census Bureau
www.google.com/publicdata
California has 3,000,000 more people than the entire country of Canada, and Los Angeles County has nearly 2,000,000 more than Canada's second most populous province.
Meanwhile, California's total area is 163,696 sq miles (423,970 km²).
Canada's total area is 3.855 million sq miles (9.985 million km²).
yarrow
Engineer
perhaps it is in the annual report (we have a dial-up internet connection so it would take me a long time view the report) but how much of a subsidy is required per 1st class passenger on the canadian?
G
Gord
Guest
I agree with a lot of your assesment and I'm sure Harper's conservative buddies would love to have the Canadian out of their hair in terms of competition or to take portions of the route over and/or buy equipment at bargain prices.
Frankly, I ride the Canadian 3 to 5 round trips per year and its always pretty busy so I'm not buying the "nobody uses the train" nonsense I keep hearing. A lot of folks who use the Canadian and Ocean in intermediate communities are older or don't have huge incomes so they may object to being stuffed into coaches instead of berths, roomettes and bedrooms. I'll sure be hopping mad and on the phone to my MP if that ever happens.
It's hard to argue that dropping of a Toronto-Kitchener run was a big deal as it was replaced with a one seat ride on a GO train althoiugh currently not much help to Torontonians travelling to and from Kitchener. Loss of a Sarnia train was a bigger deal. OTOH, a one seat ride was lost on the Niagara Falls run and as a frequent user, I don't like buses and I don't want to switch modes. I'm not alone on this. This was a reduction in quality of service.
Perhaps you don't want to subsidise my frequent business trips from Toronto to Edmointon on the Canadian but then I don't travel by flying cattle car and maybe I'm not happy about the $400 million of my tax dollars going into your new Toronto (Pickering) airport, let alone all the other billions in airport, highway, seaway and road subsidies I pay for but have limited use of. Don't even get me started on the pollution and huge fuel consumption created by all those flights and highway expansions, either.
The bottom line is that this government is specifically gunning for Via Rail's paltry subsidy while throwing huge money at non-rail transport projects. I do not blame Via management for this, they are being ordered to make cuts by the Feds,
The result of the frequency reductions to the long distance trains will be lower overall ridership and less service and choice for users. It will then be used as an excuse to cancel the trains, entirely. Sounds like the 1950's all over again, the war on trains and lack of a level playing field continue.
Gord
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
I guess this is why VIA Rail is doing so bad. I think the Canadian, Skeena, and Ocean/Chaleur should become private train curises, with essential serivce sections provided by the government. The Hudson Bay is obviously essential transport, and the other trains would be retained in the current status quo.
rrdude
Engineer
Dial-Up STILL EXISTS? :unsure: I know it does, but it's just hard to imagine having to put up with those speeds, or lack thereof!
I guess I'm just a spoiled-rotten kid, er, old fart.
If they would bring back the overnight New York-Niagara Falls- Toronto joint Amtrak/Via service, I am sure that it would do very well, and restore the second Niagara Falls-Toronto schedule as a result.
I don't recall the brief period it did run years back, and I am not even sure if it was a thru train like the Maple Leaf, or just a connection at Niagara Falls.
I am familiar with bus schedules, and the overnite buses on that ten to twelve hour trip (varies), arer far more popular overnite than all-day....
I don't recall the brief period it did run years back, and I am not even sure if it was a thru train like the Maple Leaf, or just a connection at Niagara Falls.
I am familiar with bus schedules, and the overnite buses on that ten to twelve hour trip (varies), arer far more popular overnite than all-day....
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
That's strange, I ride all day all the time. I can't imagine why people would like sleeping on abus better than just riding by day. I guess the overnight train would be good for some biz travellers, but I don't understand the bus.
:blink: Oh wow.....
People like sleeping away most of the ride to make it seem shorter. This is especially true on trips of this 500 mile length. They also like it because it saves them from paying for a night in a hotel. I know many disagree with this logic, but it is true nonetheless....
johnny.menhennet
Conductor
Take a look at eastbound flights from the West Coast to the East Coast! I would venture to say 30-40% of them are red eyes, because the ability to try to sleep away the time, and not losing a day in travel are very important to a lot of people, not just business travelers. When I went to New Jersey last week, you betcha that my flight east was a red eye, and even though I was tired the next day, I got to spend a whole extra day with my best friend. Nothing else compares. In some markets, an overnight flight is the ONLY direct option. From San Diego to Miami, the only daily flight is a red eye, one of JetBlue's two to Boston is a redeye. One of US Airways' 3 to PHL is a redeye... the list goes on, but you get the point. It is a large market, and the ability to arrive in a destination without losing any time (get to airport [or in this case bus terminal] at 7-9 giving enuogh time for dinner and packing after a non-impacted day, and arrive between 5-7 in the morning, allowing for no wasted time there either).
Absolutely. Even more apparent if you look at "rush hour" at JFK airport....The morning flights to Europe you can practically count on one hand, but the evening flights are like subway trains, they depart so frequently........
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
I try to avoid sleeping in seat as much as possible, so I guess these guys take their time more importantly than comfort.
I have to say that I would not fly on a red-eye if possible. I mostly fly intercontinenetal, and I like to choose a morning departure so that I don't have to sleep on the plane and save money with Economy Class,despite having to deal with jet lag.
BTW, why don't you fly out of LAX? You could take American Flagship or United PS. Those are pretty good, the Flagship is a nice 767. AA does have finalcial woes.
