$466. operating subsidy per passenger

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Midland Valley

Lead Service Attendant
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
408
Location
Dodge City, Kansas
Everyone is touting this figure of $466. for subsidizing each passenger on the Sun Set. Or as some are saying, the train loses $466.00 per passenger. How do they come up with these figures, I think the SWC is close behind on "money losing"? And, what is the per passenger loss for the airlines when you figure in Air Traffic Control and airports and bailouts?
 
My guess is that this figure is for each COACH passenger traveling the entire length from ORL to LAX, and doesnt in clude sleeping car passengers and/or passengers who come and go in between endpoints, which undoubtedly happens on a 4 day transcon trip.

I think that it is very difficult to get an accurate figure on loss per passenger.

Just another bull$hit "fact" from the marionetta and Dubya gang.

Frustratedly,

Jon Parker
 
capltd29 said:
My guess is that this figure is for each COACH passenger traveling the entire length from ORL to LAX, and doesnt in clude sleeping car passengers and/or passengers who come and go in between endpoints, which undoubtedly happens on a 4 day transcon trip.
I think that it is very difficult to get an accurate figure on loss per passenger.

While I don't have all the data available offhand, I once did a rough calculation and remember the commercial aviation "loss per passenger" (rather, government subsidy per passenger) was around $40. This was calculated after the 2003-ish bailout of security fees, IIRC.

Amtrak's subsidy per passenger (which is technically different from "loss per passenger") is around $48.

Another measure one could use is recovery ratio (revenues divided by expenses). Amtrak comes to around 65%. The interstate highway system (i.e. the subsidy to the trucking and bus industries) is around 58%.
Very true (about it being difficult to get accurate LPP numbers, that is).

"Loss per passenger," at one time was just dividing the route's losses by the total number of passengers carried. The result was, of course, completely meaningless, as a passenger traveling San Antonio to Houston counted the same as one traveling from Tucson to Jacksonville.

Nowadays, loss per passenger is just some random number that train-haters pull out of their arse and throw around as if it has some actual basis in reality.
 
While I don't have all the data available offhand, I once did a rough calculation and remember the commercial aviation "loss per passenger" (rather, government subsidy per passenger) was around $40. This was calculated after the 2003-ish bailout of security fees, IIRC.

Amtrak's subsidy per passenger (which is technically different from "loss per passenger") is around $48.

Another measure one could use is recovery ratio (revenues divided by expenses). Amtrak comes to around 65%. The interstate highway system (i.e. the subsidy to the trucking and bus industries) is around 58%.
 
Okay, this is weird. That was all supposed to be one post. The first time I posted, the bottom half of the message never went through. The second time I tried, the *TOP* half of the message got cut off. I'm just going to leave it as it, unless a moderator feels like cleaning it up.
 
Midland Valley said:
Everyone is touting this figure of $466. for subsidizing each passenger on the Sun Set. Or as some are saying, the train loses $466.00 per passenger.
Where did you recently see this... Reader's Digest?
 
rmadisonwi’s recovery ratio figure is interesting. What do you suppose the same ratio is for our clean water supply, the National Park Service, and NOAA?

I read somewhere that one out of every five full-time employed Americans owes his/her job to the automobile industry (parts, roads, insurance, hospitality, etc.), which depends on our highway system. But our cars and highways bring us $billions in medical costs each year too. Confusing.

Our roads are like our easy-to-find clean water; all of us benefit. Imagine how sick all of us would be if we didn’t have clean water close at hand. You can say the same for Amtrak’s routes in the NEC, Illinois, and (perhaps) Florida. I suggest Amtrak’s long-haul routes are something like the National Park Service or PBS; they are nice to have, but they are not essential. I would like more of my taxes spent on nice-to-have things, and much less spend on endless wars and waste.
 
rmadisonwi said:
Okay, this is weird. That was all supposed to be one post. The first time I posted, the bottom half of the message never went through. The second time I tried, the *TOP* half of the message got cut off. I'm just going to leave it as it, unless a moderator feels like cleaning it up.
Sorry, Robert, but the current software does not permit me any way to merge the posts together.

The best I could do, would be to delete everything, forcing you to retype it all. Frankly that doesn't seem like it's worth it.
 
jccollins said:
Midland Valley said:
Everyone is touting this figure of $466. for subsidizing each passenger on the Sun Set.  Or as some are saying, the train loses $466.00 per passenger.
Where did you recently see this... Reader's Digest?
This is the figure that house members on the appropiations sub committee dealing with Amtrak were using. It's the figure they have given to the press regarding "one route from LA-Orlando". Its been in several news releases.
 
I wish to pass this info along. Please do the same.

Some congressmen have expressed vehement opposition to Amtrak. In researching this, I asked myself "why?". The answer may lie in finding out who their contributors and PAC donators are. Go to the web site Opensecrets.org for a listing of the FEC filings. For instance, Rep. Mica of Florida received $82,504 from "Air Transport" PACS during the 2003-2004 election cycle and $108,250 during the 2001-2002 cycle. Another member opposed to Amtrak is Ernest Istook of Oklahoma who received $74,429 during the last cycle. Another reason certain Congressmen may oppose Amtrak is because they get preferential and/or free rates to and from Washington. Depending on how that is handled, it may not comply with FEC rules and may be illegal. One way approach to this might be to ask your local new media to investigate whether there is any linkage between the contributions and their opposition to Amtrak. Check out the web site below.

http://www.opensecrets.org

__________________________________________________________

Let’s Talk About Subsidies

Amtrak carried over 25 million intercity passengers in 2004 (and will carry substantially more in 2005. (www.Amtrak.com).

The Airlines by contrast carried about 550 million domestic revenue passengers (www.bts.gov) according to the U.S. Government Bureau of Transportation statistics. That is 22 times as many passengers as used Amtrak.

The Amtrak Subsidy was approximately $1.2 billion last year.

Now consider the subsidy by tax payers to the airlines. The taxpayer pays for the airports. www.bts.gov indicates there are 207 “hub” airports representing an investment of $3.62 billion + each, conservatively totaling $750 billion. Only a small part of the expense is recovered by ticket taxes and landing fees. The interest on the investment (railroads call it lost opportunity cost which they have to bear on their own infrastructure) at a conservative 7% amounts to $52.5 billion. The additional federal, state and local expenses paid out for support infrastructure, police, fire departments, parking lots, entrance roads, bus operations, etc. amounts to over 10% of the total which adds at least another $7.5 billion. (And this does not even take into account the 603 “non hub” airports!) (Ever hear of “airport authority taxes”)

The taxpayer also pays to train most of the pilots which are trained by the armed forces for $2,000,000 + per pilot. At say 100,000 pilots who fly 15 years for the airlines that amounts to $13.3 billion per year.

Then the taxpayer pays for the air traffic control system at about $14 billion per year (and rising).

In addition, the airports take up valuable ground which if used by a private entity (such as a railroad) would pay property taxes, conservatively estimated at over $31 billion per year.

Now you have the bankrupt airlines, with United alone throwing over $9 billion in unfunded pensions onto the Federal Government. This will probably grow to about $30 billion by the time the rest of the industry files bankruptcy to compete with the lower cost bankrupt carriers that have shed their pension liabilities onto the Government.

The cost of “Airport Security” whose employees are on the Federal Payroll is budgeted at approx. $6 billion in the current budget.

So the airlines are subsidized by even conservative estimates in excess of a $154 billion dollars per year. If Amtrak were to carry the same number of passengers as the airlines, 22 times as many passengers as it now carries, the subsidy would be about 10 times its present subsidy of about $1.2 billion per year, or less than $12 billion per year.

Based on these very conservative estimates, it would be more than 10 times cheaper to carry all passengers by rail than by air and would save the country over $140 billion per year! With the airline industry suffering record and growing losses and fuel prices rising with no end in sight, would it not be prudent to act now to begin to adjust the disparity?

Remember, in the 1950’s you could travel almost everyplace east of the Mississippi overnight by trains traveling up to 110 miles per hour, not even high speed rail, just conventional technology.
 
Nonsense!! Anyone who knows anything regarding transportation statistics will tell you that the real loss or profit is measured in terms of the Revenue Passenger-Mile. I think that Amtrak's loss per R.P.M. is something like 0.10 - nowhere near the $466 per pax listed above.

Utter hogwash.
 
I would love to know how much we, as taxpayers subisidize the airlines, buses & trucks in this country. I suspect it's a lot!

The press tends to find one thing to focus on, and right now, that focus is Amtrak. It reminds me of a witch hunt.

We can only hope that Congress will wake up and smell Amtrak, and continue to fund it.

I've written letters to Mr. Bush, and my Senators.

Keep the faith.
 
Ok what about the states that amtrak doesnt operate trains in such as South Dakota,Wyoming,Alaska,Hawaii do the congressmen and senators from those states support amtrak?Wyoming used to have amtrak service untill the Pioneer was discontinued in the mid 90s.Sometimes the zephyr will get rerouted through Wyoming if track work or a derailment prevents it from using the old D&RGW route.
 
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