#422 and #3 exceeding 79 mph?

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jis said:
neroden said:
cirdan said:
I recently read an article that BNSF is launching or has launched a fast freight train to bring fresh agricultural produce from California to the Mid-west in 5 days.

Why so excessively long?
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Because US railroads suck?
The Russians would laugh at those speeds. That's only 2 time zones. The Russians now run their fast freight across the Trans-Siberian 8 time zones in 12 days, and are trying to speed that up to 7 days, same as passenger. And yes, they have mountain ranges to cross.
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I suspect that the latitude at which you are counting time zones would have an impact on the actual geographical distance on ground to be covered per time zone. No?
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"Timezone" is a very arbitrary unit of measuring distance, but kilometers in Russia are the same as kilometers in US, right? Or has Putin come up with his own system for that too? :p

According to Google Maps, San Francisco-Chicago is ~3,400 km. Moscow-Vladivostok is ~9100 km. So if the superawesome Russian freight train does 9100 km in 12 days, it can do ~3400 km in 4.3 days... and the proposed sucky US railroad freight train would take 5 days. I don't think that's much of a difference*

* here I am assuming "mid-west" = Chicago or somewhere in that vicinity
 
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In no other country do people tend to beat themselves up publically for our real and perceived deficiencies like is done in the US. In most others to admit something goes wrong is taken like a national shame to be hidden from outside view. It is time to try to take a more positive view of what is done here. The American rail freight system is actually the world's best. I will be happy to hear REAL evidence to the contrary.

As to "If the SWC has about 2 days, then surely a high priority freight can do the same. Maybe the train can't move quite as fast, but not doing all the stops should make up for that", This sort of stuff is armchair quarterbacking. Let's try a little reality here: First, a passenger train stop from 79 mph adds 3 minutes plus dwell time to the non-stop time, so the "many stops" comparison is meaningless. (Doing it from 90 mph would probably add at most about 30 seconds more.) BNSF does make a real honest effort to prioritise the passenger trains they host. The 70 mph max, or more likely 55 to 60 mph speed limit for the freight does make a real difference, as does slower acceleration and braking. Second, AT&SF tried a superfast freight quite a number of years ago that did approach passenger train end to end times. The market for that sort of premium service was not there so it was discontinued. Aerodynamcis do make a difference. The fuel consumption per ton hauled for the freight would be considerably greater than it would be for a passenger train. Putting the same or greater horsepower per ton on the freight so as to make the passenger train times even possible would put the fuel consumption through the roof. Maybe the train could make the run in 2 1/2 or 3 days, but the economices to do it are not there.

As to the Russian comparison: Lattitude and distance comparisons have already been mentioned. Other questions are: is this regularly done or is this something done for bragging rights? Siberia has miles and miles of very flat miles and miles. The BNSF mainline between California goes through some very rugged terrain with lots of on-line traffic. In short, it is a much more difficult run.
 
Texan Eagle said:
"Timezone" is a very arbitrary unit of measuring distance, but kilometers in Russia are the same as kilometers in US, right?
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OK, you have a good point.

According to Google Maps, San Francisco-Chicago is ~3,400 km. Moscow-Vladivostok is ~9100 km.
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What I've read is actually "Ukranian border" to Vladivostok.
So if the superawesome Russian freight train does 9100 km in 12 days, it can do ~3400 km in 4.3 days... and the proposed sucky US railroad freight train would take 5 days. I don't think that's much of a difference*

* here I am assuming "mid-west" = Chicago or somewhere in that vicinity
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I guess it does matter what you assume "midwest" means. I immediately thought "Iowa".
If it means Ohio, obviously that's significantly further.

Lesson: vagueness is not my friend when making comparisons. 5 days SF-Cleveland is not the same as 5 days LA-Missouri, but both could be called "California to the Midwest".
 
George Harris said:
As to the Russian comparison: Lattitude and distance comparisons have already been mentioned. Other questions are: is this regularly done or is this something done for bragging rights?
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Regularly. They're trying to get a larger proportion of the Asia-to-Europe container market, and speed matters.
You'd think speed would matter with fresh produce too -- you'd expect it to be highly time-sensitive.
 
Fresh produce has been delivered for ages from California San Joaquin Valley to New York by Armada and various other outfits using rail. I have no idea why what has worked for 50 years would suddenly stop working now, and require extraordinarily higher speeds.
 
neroden said:
I guess it does matter what you assume "midwest" means. I immediately thought "Iowa".
If it means Ohio, obviously that's significantly further.

Lesson: vagueness is not my friend when making comparisons. 5 days SF-Cleveland is not the same as 5 days LA-Missouri, but both could be called "California to the Midwest".
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I was thinking in terms of Central Valley to Chicago or thereabouts. If we are talking produce, we are talking Central Valley. You sure don't have much in the way of agricultural production in Los Angeles. If you come out of the Central Valley, you do some serious mountain crossing before you even get to the route of the Southwest Chief. We are talking Tehatchapi, which is the reason there are no through passenger trains to Los Angeles out of the valley. If the route were to be by UP, it would be worse, becausd for that we are talking Donner Pass.
 
The Santa Fe regular ran high speed freight trains 40 years ago between LA and Chicago in 40 hours. The service stopped after about 8 years because too few customers were willing to pay the $1400 per trailer extra charge, when "regular" freight trains routinely made the run in 55 hours.

And the New York Central experimented in the late 1960s in running trailer trains from New York to Los Angeles in 54 hours.
 
Santa Fe called it's high speed train the Super C. Most if of the route it traveled at 79 but out in Arizona it was allowed 90. It was four locomotives, around twenty cars and a caboose. It was quite a ride for the crew riding the caboose.
 
That was back when diesel fuel prices were a lot lower. The incremental cost today of operating a freight at 79 (which was the limit for the Super C's in California, at least) or 90 would be even higher.
 
Perhaps my confusion is over the term "fresh". After 5 days, it's not fresh produce, it's refrigerated produce. This is not "fresh produce" shipping.
 
It will be almost exactly as refrigerated after three days as it is after five days. So even the heroic Russians could not deliver fresh produce to New York from California using their oh so fancy freight trains. :p

For truly fresh produce shipping, per the more stringent definition, without refrigeration only things that stands a remote chance is by air. Rail does not stand a chance of doing so across the country in a long long time.
 
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