2015 PTC Mandate: Possibility of higher speeds across the system

[WICT106]

To add to Xyzzy's points, the freight railroads retain the right to set and enforce lower speed limits than the FRA. In other words, one could maintain a stretch of track to Class 6 standards, and impose a 30 mph speed limit, if one so chose.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I read a while ago that the old Santa Fe Chief of the 1950's and 1960's ran a good portion of its route at 100 MPH. If Amtrak is limited to 72 MPH max. on its LD routes, this only goes to show how backwards passenger train travel has become. Amtrak trains are all capable of running more than 100MPH, then why do we have 70 or 72 as the maximum speed?

Just listen to the Song " Casey Jones" and youll be reminded of why Trains don't Speed much anymore! Urbanization (Along with all the Grade Crossings and "Local No-Noise Laws") and of course the Poor Condition of Lots of the Rails and Rail Beds!! Amtrak Engineers are pretty much under Speed Control their Whole Route with today's Technology!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Let me try again because the message doesn't seem to be getting through. Amtrak trains outside the NEC are slower, on average, than their 1950s predecessors because today's freight railroads have no incentive to support high speeds. Instead, in order to reduce costs while maintaining speeds that are perfectly adequate for freight, many railroads eliminated 90 mph running and all of them eliminated anything faster.

The speed of an Amtrak train is limited by the lowest of the following:

• Track condition. FRA Class III = 60 mph. Class IV = 80 mph. Class V = 90 mph.
• The usual speed restrictions on curves, through cities, across interlockings, up and down steep grades, etc.
• The railroad's own limit. Some freight railroads limit passenger trains to 70 regardless of other factors.
• Signals. None = 59 mph. ABS/CTC = 79.
• Locomotives. Nearly all Amtrak locomotives are geared for 100+, however.
• Cars. Not a factor outside the NEC; Amtrak won't carry a private car whose running gear slows down a train.

And there's also the factor that Amtrak locomotives have finite horsepower and can accelerate a train only so quickly.

Yes, in the 1950s it was common for an engineer to exceed the speed limit when making up time. That was then and this is now. It never happens these days. Never.

Well, exceeding the speed limit happens on the roads all the time and happens on the rails too in some countries. So it does happen these days. Maybe not on US railroads, but it does happen.

 

[Ryan]

It doesn't for trains, which is actually what we're discussing here (your efforts to bring busses into *every* conversation you enter notwithstanding).

Wreck of the old 97 is another example of why we don't do that anymore.

 

[jis]

Intentional over-speeding on public railway in this age of black boxes in locomotives is relatively rare even in other major rail operating countries these days.

But then again saying that it happens occasionally is not saying much, since there will always be exceptions to general behavior on occasions for various reasons. The difference is if it is caught it is dealt with quite immediately and harshly. In the past over-speeding on rail was not treated as harshly as it is now.

In a similar vein SPAD (Signal Passed At Danger) also happens distressingly often, but that does not make it an acceptable behavior.

What happens on roads is a separate matter that is entirely out of scope of this thread.

PTC just provides better enforcement pro-actively rather than after the fact. As for whether it is worth it or not - that argument will go on until it is broadly deployed, and after that my guess is it will be accepted as normal just as air brakes, AAR couplers (in the US) and ABS and CTC (or better) has become the norm on heavily traveled tracks. For example, the Europeans are yet to evolve to uniform use of center tightlock couplers of any sort, and the argument against doing so is exactly the same as the one raging about PTC in the US.

 

[AlanB]

Well, exceeding the speed limit happens on the roads all the time and happens on the rails too in some countries. So it does happen these days. Maybe not on US railroads, but it does happen.

It doesn't happen here in this country, except in very rare circumstances. Every Amtrak engineer is well aware that standing around the next bend in the road could be someone holding a radar gun. If that engineer is caught speeding, he's done for the day, and quite probably done forever with that host RR. Essentially, he/she will be looking for a new job. Perhaps if they have enough seniority, they might be able to move to a new crew base that doesn't send trains over the host RR where they got busted.

Furthermore, with the exception of the SWC the only LD with 90 MPH running, the computers on all Amtrak trains are set to automatically shut down the train if the engineer runs above 84 MPH at any time. Even prolonged running in the 80 to 84 MPH range will get him shut down.

So, NO, speeding doesn't occur in this country on the trains.

 

[Eric S]

Furthermore, with the exception of the SWC the only LD with 90 MPH running, the computers on all Amtrak trains are set to automatically shut down the train if the engineer runs above 84 MPH at any time. Even prolonged running in the 80 to 84 MPH range will get him shut down.

I assume that means all LD trains, right? (As there are a few corridors that run over 79mph. And, now that I think of it, the LSL as well.)

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Well, exceeding the speed limit happens on the roads all the time and happens on the rails too in some countries. So it does happen these days. Maybe not on US railroads, but it does happen.

It doesn't happen here in this country, except in very rare circumstances. Every Amtrak engineer is well aware that standing around the next bend in the road could be someone holding a radar gun. If that engineer is caught speeding, he's done for the day, and quite probably done forever with that host RR. Essentially, he/she will be looking for a new job. Perhaps if they have enough seniority, they might be able to move to a new crew base that doesn't send trains over the host RR where they got busted.

Furthermore, with the exception of the SWC the only LD with 90 MPH running, the computers on all Amtrak trains are set to automatically shut down the train if the engineer runs above 84 MPH at any time. Even prolonged running in the 80 to 84 MPH range will get him shut down.

So, NO, speeding doesn't occur in this country on the trains.

I didn't say that it happens in this country, I said in other countries. I never drive over the speed limit on the roads, so I'm not advocating it. I'm pretty sure that with ABS, an Amtrak train could run at 90 mph on the straight and flat, aren't speeds up to 100 mph regularly done in the UK on tracks with ABS? About the tracks with no signals at all, slow speeds are perfectly understandable. They should get ABS immediately when possible.

It doesn't for trains, which is actually what we're discussing here (your efforts to bring busses into *every* conversation you enter notwithstanding).

Wreck of the old 97 is another example of why we don't do that anymore.

I didn't even mention a bus at all, so don't you accuse me of more threadjacking. I said "roads" because loads of people speed on the roads. I don't, but then I hold up traffic and some people get mad. But of course, I still don't go voer the speed limit no matter how much you honk your horn or how many insults you yell.

 

[xyzzy]

The comparison with the UK is not relevant. I ride trains in the UK every month when I'm there on business. Network Rail in the UK spends a fortune maintaining tracks on behalf of all the passenger and freight franchisees. For the most part, tracks in the UK are maintained for passenger standards; operating freight over them is an after-thought, and in any event it's the freight franchisee not Network Rail who runs those freight trains. It's the polar opposite of the situation of most of railroad lines in the U.S.

I can assure you that if somebody throws tens of millions of dollars at CSX or NS -- not just once, but year after year -- and says "spend this money to keep such-and-such a line at FRA Class V", CSX or NS would be happy to... as long as the money doesn't result in additional frequency of passenger trains, which is a separate issue. Likewise, if somebody identified a dark railroad over which passenger trains are to be run and then throws tens of millions of dollars at CSX or NS to put ABS/CTC on it, the railroad would be happy to.

All you need to do, then, is to find a governmental agency or a sugar daddy like Bill Gates to hand over the money, and you'll have your 90 mph passenger trains. Good luck.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The comparison with the UK is not relevant. I ride trains in the UK every month when I'm there on business. Network Rail in the UK spends a fortune maintaining tracks on behalf of all the passenger and freight franchisees. For the most part, tracks in the UK are maintained for passenger standards; operating freight over them is an after-thought, and in any event it's the freight franchisee not Network Rail who runs those freight trains. It's the polar opposite of the situation of most of railroad lines in the U.S.

I can assure you that if somebody throws tens of millions of dollars at CSX or NS -- not just once, but year after year -- and says "spend this money to keep such-and-such a line at FRA Class V", CSX or NS would be happy to... as long as the money doesn't result in additional frequency of passenger trains, which is a separate issue. Likewise, if somebody identified a dark railroad over which passenger trains are to be run and then throws tens of millions of dollars at CSX or NS to put ABS/CTC on it, the railroad would be happy to.

All you need to do, then, is to find a governmental agency or a sugar daddy like Bill Gates to hand over the money, and you'll have your 90 mph passenger trains. Good luck.

Then I guess the trains here at stuck at 79 mph. Seems to cost a fortune just for a little speed gain. Oh well....

 

[Anderson]

The comparison with the UK is not relevant. I ride trains in the UK every month when I'm there on business. Network Rail in the UK spends a fortune maintaining tracks on behalf of all the passenger and freight franchisees. For the most part, tracks in the UK are maintained for passenger standards; operating freight over them is an after-thought, and in any event it's the freight franchisee not Network Rail who runs those freight trains. It's the polar opposite of the situation of most of railroad lines in the U.S.

I can assure you that if somebody throws tens of millions of dollars at CSX or NS -- not just once, but year after year -- and says "spend this money to keep such-and-such a line at FRA Class V", CSX or NS would be happy to... as long as the money doesn't result in additional frequency of passenger trains, which is a separate issue. Likewise, if somebody identified a dark railroad over which passenger trains are to be run and then throws tens of millions of dollars at CSX or NS to put ABS/CTC on it, the railroad would be happy to.

All you need to do, then, is to find a governmental agency or a sugar daddy like Bill Gates to hand over the money, and you'll have your 90 mph passenger trains. Good luck.

Though the additional frequencies would be another matter, I'm sure if they were getting that kind of money, that plus a few sidings or some double-tracking would go a long way. If the "class improvement" added enough slots, there's a chance you could get some more trains added as well.

 

[xyzzy]

Agreed, it's just a question of how much money. Greensboro-Raleigh-Selma was a dark railroad (except for 8 miles) with very few sidings in 1993. Today it's a CTC railroad with speeds up to 79 and more capacity. More improvements coming, with 90 mph eventually. Price tag, probably $100 million before it's done. And that doesn't include Charlotte-Greensboro.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

States that December 1st is when Amtrak will notify people of suspensions.

http://news.yahoo.com/amtrak-suspend-national-rail-without-safety-extension-173319145.html