1976 AMTRAK Map

[GoldenSpike]

Looking at the 2 maps, it looks like the CS bypassed SAC on both! Is this correct? :huh: And if so, what route did it take?

AMTRAK likely took the routing of the SP's Shasta Daylight that ran PDX-OAK.

From Redding it went via Gerber. The train then went to Davis (pax to SAC bussed)-Maritinez-Oakland.

 

[MrFSS]

Looking at the 2 maps, it looks like the CS bypassed SAC on both! Is this correct? :huh: And if so, what route did it take?

Here is the 1971 table.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Looking at the 2 maps, it looks like the CS bypassed SAC on both! Is this correct? :huh: And if so, what route did it take?

The Coast Starlight turned north at Davis, CA bypassing Sacramento. I rode the CS southbound in 1972. At the time they had a bus connection to Sacramento which was a holdover from SP. The next time I rode the CS north of Oakland was 1995 and by then it went to Sacramento and then north.

 

[AAARGH!]

Here is the first Amtrak table from 1971.

Now is just like the gool 'ol days. No Amtrak service between New Orleans and Florida (Sunset Limited). :angry:

I'm surprised there was no service to Cleveland. Was there still service from another carrier?

 

[MrFSS]

I'm surprised there was no service to Cleveland. Was there still service from another carrier?

Not in 1971 there wasn't.

 

[NativeSon5859]

Here is the first Amtrak table from 1971.

Now is just like the gool 'ol days. No Amtrak service between New Orleans and Florida (Sunset Limited). :angry:

Nope, the Gulf Wind which ran NOL-JAX thrice weekly was not operated by Amtrak.

NOL-JAX went without passenger rail service until 1993.

 

[frj1983]

There were no Pioneer or Desert Wind in 1976! That was a surprise to me.
I have now learned that the Pioneer started in June 1977, and the Desert Wind in October 1979, per Wikipedia--both new LD services started by Amtrak. Of course, these routes saw service up until A-Day: The Pioneer's route was covered by two daily UP trains per day until 1971, then nothing until 1977; and the Desert Wind's route was covered by the UP/C&NW City of Los Angeles until 1971, then nothing until 1979.

How many other LD trains were killed on (or before) A-Day and after a service gap were more-or-less re-instated by Amtrak?

I'm at work and away from my books, Wayman,

But I strongly believe that the Capital Limited was also in your group. If memory serves correctly there was a 10 year gap 1971-1981!

 

[wayman]

I don't see it explicitly stated, but since the times are exactly the same for the James Whitcomb Riley and the Mountaineer between Chicago and "Tri-State"/Ashland, it looks like these ran as a single train from Ashland west, joining/splitting there?

I'm piecing together the following from Wikipedia and other sources, and some of the information is hazy or contradictory... please confirm or correct the below if you know better:

pre-A-Day:

1923: B&O inaugurates the Capitol Limited, NYP-BAL-WAS-Cumberland-PGH-CHI

1925: B&O inaugurates the National Limited, NYP-BAL-WAS-Cumberland-CIN-STL

1926: PRR stops allowing B&O to use NYP, and B&O relocates their northern terminus to Jersey City

1932: C&O inaugurates the George Washington, WAS-Charlottesville-Clifton Forge-Ashland-CIN; a second section operates NPN-Richmond-CVS, joining the main section there -- the main section is basically half of today's Cardinal

1941: NYC inaugurates the James Whitcomb Riley, CIN-IND-CHI -- this is basically the other half of today's Cardinal

1946: N&W inaugurates the Powhatan Arrow and Pocohontas, Norfolk-Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bluefield-Kenova(Ashland)-CIN -- this was basically the Mountaineer, and also the basis for the Hilltopper

1958: B&O abandons service north of BAL; CL and NL now run BAL-CHI and BAL-STL respectively

1965: C&O takes control of B&O, and attaches the NL to the GW from WAS to CIN, effectively extending the GW to STL

1966: C&O/B&O abandons BAL; CL now originates in WAS, as does the GW/NL combined train

1969: N&W discontinues the by-now decrepit Powhatan Arrow but upgrades the Pocahontas.

The Capitol Limited (now WAS-Cumberland-PGH-CHI), George Washington (now WAS-CVS-CLF-Ashland-CIN-STL, with NPN section), James Whitcomb Riley (CIN-IND-CHI), and Pocahontas (Norfolk-LYH-ROA-Bluefield-Ashland-CIN) continue to A-Day.

A-Day:

Amtrak drops the Capitol Limited entirely.

Amtrak drops the Pocahontas entirely.

Amtrak drops the CIN-STL service formerly provided by the GW/NL.

Amtrak briefly continues to operate both the GW and JWR as separate trains; then in November merged the two into a single train and extended it all the way up the NEC to BOS, running a BOS-NYP-PHL-WAS-CVS-CLF-AKY-CIN-IND-CHI route, confusingly named GW eastbound and JWR westbound.

post-A-Day:

1972: Amtrak cuts the GW/JWR back to WAS.

1974: Amtrak drops the GW name, and uses JWR for both eastbound and westbound.

197x: Amtrak extends the JWR to NYP, essentially today's Cardinal's route. But there were various route changes in the midwest through the 1970s.

1975: Amtrak creates the Mountaineer, Norfolk-Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bluefield-Ashland, joining the JWR at Ashland and continuing to CHI -- more or less re-creating the Pocahontas. (so, from 1975-76, there were basically three sections to the JWR? the main section, the NPN section joining at CVS, and the Mountaineer section joining at Ashland???)

1976: Amtrak drops the NPN-Richmond-CVS section of the JWR. Amtrak replaces this with the Colonial, NPN-Richmond-WAS-NYP.

1977: Amtrak drops the Mountaineer, but creates the Hilltopper to more-or-less cover the same route (this time from the NEC instead of from Norfolk): BOS-NYP-PHL-WAS-Richmond-LYH-ROA-Bluefield-Ashland, with a six-hour connection to the JWR/Cardinal at Ashland. (did the cars join? or did passengers have to change trains? I haven't found that out)

1979: Amtrak drops the Hilltopper. For about eight months, Lynchburg had two "Amtrak" trains (as the Crescent became Amtrak in February and the Hilltopper was dropped in September). The Hilltopper had been trains 66/67, running overnight from BOS-WAS, so my guess is they actually just trunctated it at WAS and re-named it the Night Owl, then in 1997 re-named again to the Twilight Shoreliner. But I don't know.

1981: Amtrak re-creates the Capitol Limited, following the original B&O route from WAS-PGH but not from PGH-CHI.

1992: Amtrak re-names the Colonial the Old Dominion.

1997: Amtrak creates another Colonial running the same route.

later: Amtrak drops all Regional train names.

2009: Amtrak extends a Regional through CVS to LYH (with plans to continue to ROA). There's really no perfect historical analog to a BOS-NYP-PHL-WAS-CVS-LYH-ROA train... but Hilltopper might be the closest.

Sources included... American Rails (George Washington, National Limited), a book abstract on the Capitol Limited and National Limited, Streamliners (at Google Books, pages 38-47), and various Wikipedia pages (the Cardinal, the Virginia Services, etc).

edit: Oh, I just found a railroad.net thread which also discusses the Shenandoah and gives more info on the Hilltopper, Mountaineer, etc. Maybe I'll try to revise the above. What exciting times the mid-'70s must have been for anyone living along these routes... never knowing when their train might stop this year or what it might be called....

 

[Murjax]

I find it interesting how the New Carrollton stop was called Beltway Station back then. Does anyone know when it was renamed?

 

[DowneasterPassenger]

The Downeaster is an improvement!

 

[jis]

A DayAmtrak drops the Capitol Limited entirely.

. . . .

1981: Amtrak re-creates the Capitol Limited, following the original B&O route from WAS-PGH but not from PGH-CHI.

In the interim period Amtrak ran a section of the Broadway Limited from Washington DC joining up at Harrisburg. The Washington - Harrisburg train ran variously through Philly 30th St or via Port Road from Perryville to Harrisburg.

When Capitol Ltd was restored as mentioned it did not follow B&O from PGH to CHI. Ironically, it is the Broadway Limited that was routed on B&O between PGH and CHI when the PRR Fort Wayne line was downgraded by Conrail.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I don't see it explicitly stated, but since the times are exactly the same for the James Whitcomb Riley and the Mountaineer between Chicago and "Tri-State"/Ashland, it looks like these ran as a single train from Ashland west, joining/splitting there?
I'm piecing together the following from Wikipedia and other sources, and some of the information is hazy or contradictory... please confirm or correct the below if you know better:

pre-A-Day:

1923: B&O inaugurates the Capitol Limited, NYP-BAL-WAS-Cumberland-PGH-CHI

1925: B&O inaugurates the National Limited, NYP-BAL-WAS-Cumberland-CIN-STL

1926: PRR stops allowing B&O to use NYP, and B&O relocates their northern terminus to Jersey City

1932: C&O inaugurates the George Washington, WAS-Charlottesville-Clifton Forge-Ashland-CIN; a second section operates NPN-Richmond-CVS, joining the main section there -- the main section is basically half of today's Cardinal

1941: NYC inaugurates the James Whitcomb Riley, CIN-IND-CHI -- this is basically the other half of today's Cardinal

1946: N&W inaugurates the Powhatan Arrow and Pocohontas, Norfolk-Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bluefield-Kenova(Ashland)-CIN -- this was basically the Mountaineer, and also the basis for the Hilltopper

1958: B&O abandons service north of BAL; CL and NL now run BAL-CHI and BAL-STL respectively

1965: C&O takes control of B&O, and attaches the NL to the GW from WAS to CIN, effectively extending the GW to STL

1966: C&O/B&O abandons BAL; CL now originates in WAS, as does the GW/NL combined train

1969: N&W discontinues the by-now decrepit Powhatan Arrow but upgrades the Pocahontas.

The Capitol Limited (now WAS-Cumberland-PGH-CHI), George Washington (now WAS-CVS-CLF-Ashland-CIN-STL, with NPN section), James Whitcomb Riley (CIN-IND-CHI), and Pocahontas (Norfolk-LYH-ROA-Bluefield-Ashland-CIN) continue to A-Day.

A-Day:

Amtrak drops the Capitol Limited entirely.

Amtrak drops the Pocahontas entirely.

Amtrak drops the CIN-STL service formerly provided by the GW/NL.

Amtrak briefly continues to operate both the GW and JWR as separate trains; then in November merged the two into a single train and extended it all the way up the NEC to BOS, running a BOS-NYP-PHL-WAS-CVS-CLF-AKY-CIN-IND-CHI route, confusingly named GW eastbound and JWR westbound.

post-A-Day:

1972: Amtrak cuts the GW/JWR back to WAS.

1974: Amtrak drops the GW name, and uses JWR for both eastbound and westbound.

197x: Amtrak extends the JWR to NYP, essentially today's Cardinal's route. But there were various route changes in the midwest through the 1970s.

1975: Amtrak creates the Mountaineer, Norfolk-Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bluefield-Ashland, joining the JWR at Ashland and continuing to CHI -- more or less re-creating the Pocahontas. (so, from 1975-76, there were basically three sections to the JWR? the main section, the NPN section joining at CVS, and the Mountaineer section joining at Ashland???)

1976: Amtrak drops the NPN-Richmond-CVS section of the JWR. Amtrak replaces this with the Colonial, NPN-Richmond-WAS-NYP.

1977: Amtrak drops the Mountaineer, but creates the Hilltopper to more-or-less cover the same route (this time from the NEC instead of from Norfolk): BOS-NYP-PHL-WAS-Richmond-LYH-ROA-Bluefield-Ashland, with a six-hour connection to the JWR/Cardinal at Ashland. (did the cars join? or did passengers have to change trains? I haven't found that out)

1979: Amtrak drops the Hilltopper. For about eight months, Lynchburg had two "Amtrak" trains (as the Crescent became Amtrak in February and the Hilltopper was dropped in September). The Hilltopper had been trains 66/67, running overnight from BOS-WAS, so my guess is they actually just trunctated it at WAS and re-named it the Night Owl, then in 1997 re-named again to the Twilight Shoreliner. But I don't know.

1981: Amtrak re-creates the Capitol Limited, following the original B&O route from WAS-PGH but not from PGH-CHI.

1992: Amtrak re-names the Colonial the Old Dominion.

1997: Amtrak creates another Colonial running the same route.

later: Amtrak drops all Regional train names.

2009: Amtrak extends a Regional through CVS to LYH (with plans to continue to ROA). There's really no perfect historical analog to a BOS-NYP-PHL-WAS-CVS-LYH-ROA train... but Hilltopper might be the closest.

Sources included... American Rails (George Washington, National Limited), a book abstract on the Capitol Limited and National Limited, Streamliners (at Google Books, pages 38-47), and various Wikipedia pages (the Cardinal, the Virginia Services, etc).

edit: Oh, I just found a railroad.net thread which also discusses the Shenandoah and gives more info on the Hilltopper, Mountaineer, etc. Maybe I'll try to revise the above. What exciting times the mid-'70s must have been for anyone living along these routes... never knowing when their train might stop this year or what it might be called....

Thanks for the neat memories. Especially of the Pocahontas and the Powhatan Arrow.

I remember riding the Tennessean one morning from Chattanooga to Knoxville. I was assigned to a streamlined N&W coach. I still remember it. So smooth, so luxurious, I swear it even smelled good!!

But I also remember seeing the Pocahontas from the Birmingham Special one morning after it had been painted blue. I did not like that. Of course I liked the other upgrades to the Pokey, as I understand it was called-- affectionately.

Oh yes, I do have the streamliner book to which you refer. Nice book, very informative.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Those were some odd call times for the endpoints. And odd endpoints too. Can't imagine there being lots of ridership. Did it by chance connect with the Cardinal at Tri-State station?

Well, note the numbers: this was 66/67, so overnight on the NEC just like today, but back then it kept going. Perfectly reasonable times all the way to Williamson WV, the next-to-last stop on the line--a very nice local day-train through western VA and WV!

Comparing yesteryear's Hilltopper to today's Cardinal...

Westbound Hilltopper (1976) at Catlettsburg, 12:45 AM

Westbound Cardinal (2009) at Ashland, 9:58 PM

... so no connection "today", but note the Cardinal's stop in Ashland was 11:53 PM in the April 2005 timetable, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were another 90-120 minutes later in 1976 to accommodate this connection, giving folks from Richmond, Lynchburg, Roanoke, etc, a more direct route to Chicago.

Eastbound Cardinal (2009) at Ashland, 6:29 AM

Eastbound Hilltopper (1976) at Catlettsburg, 5:33 AM

... so also no connection "today", ... and the Cardinal's stop in Ashland was 8:04 AM in the April 2005 timetable, which is a shift in the wrong direction. Huh. Still, there are thirty years of schedule changes for the Cardinal between 1976 and 2005.

The Hilltopper was a prime example of Amtrak's "political trains," which run _ or ran - only at the insistence of powerful congressmen, rather than serving any meaningful markets. The Hilltopper was the pet project of U.S. Rep. Harley Staggers and earned the nickname, Harley's Hornet. Amtrak even had to run the original Turbotrain (!) on the Hilltopper's winding, slow route through the mountains. Definitely not Amtrak's proudest moment.

The Cardinal is also a product of West Virginia's political clout. Notice it serves stations in West Virgina at good times while stopping in the middle of night in the much larger markets of Cincinnati and Indianapolis.

s

So my bet is that the 1976 Cardinal made this connection. Can we see a schedule for it? I just can't see why they'd bother going to Catlettsburg (essentially Ashland) without trying to make that connection work.

The Hilltopper was a prime example of Amtrak's "political trains," which run only because of political pressure from influential congressmen, especially U.S. Rep. Harley Staggers of West Virginia. Amtrak even had to run the Turbotrain (!) on the Hilltopper's winding, slow run through the mountains. It earned the nickname, Harley's Hornet. Definitely not Amtrak's proudest moment.

The Cardinal is another example of West Virginia's powerful political forces. You notice it serves all the towns in West Virginia at good times, while arriving in the middle of night at the much larger markets of Cincinnati and Indianapolis.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

If the Cardinal is the Senator Byrd Special then the Hilltopper was the Staggers Limited. It was a sad little train, often late, with practically no ridership. It ran with as few as one snack coach. Its main rider was Harley Staggers himself.

Some of the Carter cuts were unfortunate, decimating our national network and killing useful trains. Some of the Carter cuts removed a bunch of silly political nonsense, such as the Hilltopper. Most of the east-coast routes killed in 1979 were honestly being put out of Amtrak's misery.

 

[Steve4031]

I had a chance to ride the North Coast Hiawatha, but my dad changed plans and we flew home. I was too young to really influence the decision making, but I regret missing that one. Also almost got to ride the Floridian too.

 

[DAWall]

Is that the National Limited I see there? That route served some nice sized markets. I heard the on time performance was very poor which attributed to low ridership.

I rode the National limited a couple of time in the 70's, once behind E-8's and steam heated equipment, and later after it went F-40 HEP and Amfleet. Both times I rode the train was very full. But by then the old Pennsy Panhandle division was suffering from Penn Central maintenance...or lack there of, and most of what once was 80 MPH track was down to 60 or worse. With lots of slow orders. Now much of the route from Indianapolis to Columbus Ohio is gone completely. If the train was somehow ever brought back it would need a new route. Maybe Indy to Cleveland on the ex NYC "B-line" and then over to Pittsburgh.

The Floridian too suffered from Penn Central lack of track maintenance between Chicago and Louisville. The trip often took 12 hours or more to travel just over 300 miles. In 1975, they permanantly shifted it to the former Monon line from Chicago to Louisville after some temporary reroutes over the C&EI/L&N between Chicago and Nashville. Most of the through Chicago - Florida passengers were long gone after horrible delays of the first 4 years of Amtrak. The right of ways would need to be updated from Chicago to Jacksonville so travel time would be similar to the City of Miami/SouthWind of the early 1950s to attract any through passengers from Chicago to Florida. You would also have to convince CSX or NS that the upgrades and running a passenger train would be a positive move for them.

Does anyone have a National Limited (Amtrak) and Floridian Timetable they could post?

 

[MrFSS]

Is that the National Limited I see there? That route served some nice sized markets. I heard the on time performance was very poor which attributed to low ridership.

I rode the National limited a couple of time in the 70's, once behind E-8's and steam heated equipment, and later after it went F-40 HEP and Amfleet. Both times I rode the train was very full. But by then the old Pennsy Panhandle division was suffering from Penn Central maintenance...or lack there of, and most of what once was 80 MPH track was down to 60 or worse. With lots of slow orders. Now much of the route from Indianapolis to Columbus Ohio is gone completely. If the train was somehow ever brought back it would need a new route. Maybe Indy to Cleveland on the ex NYC "B-line" and then over to Pittsburgh.

The Floridian too suffered from Penn Central lack of track maintenance between Chicago and Louisville. The trip often took 12 hours or more to travel just over 300 miles. In 1975, they permanantly shifted it to the former Monon line from Chicago to Louisville after some temporary reroutes over the C&EI/L&N between Chicago and Nashville. Most of the through Chicago - Florida passengers were long gone after horrible delays of the first 4 years of Amtrak. The right of ways would need to be updated from Chicago to Jacksonville so travel time would be similar to the City of Miami/SouthWind of the early 1950s to attract any through passengers from Chicago to Florida. You would also have to convince CSX or NS that the upgrades and running a passenger train would be a positive move for them.

Does anyone have a National Limited (Amtrak) and Floridian Timetable they could post?

 

[Guest]

What was the train that ran to Duluth in 1976? I was surprised to see that.

 

[MrFSS]

What was the train that ran to Duluth in 1976? I was surprised to see that.

Actually - it ran to Superior. The Arrowhead

 

[DAWall]

Is that the National Limited I see there? That route served some nice sized markets. I heard the on time performance was very poor which attributed to low ridership.

I rode the National limited a couple of time in the 70's, once behind E-8's and steam heated equipment, and later after it went F-40 HEP and Amfleet. Both times I rode the train was very full. But by then the old Pennsy Panhandle division was suffering from Penn Central maintenance...or lack there of, and most of what once was 80 MPH track was down to 60 or worse. With lots of slow orders. Now much of the route from Indianapolis to Columbus Ohio is gone completely. If the train was somehow ever brought back it would need a new route. Maybe Indy to Cleveland on the ex NYC "B-line" and then over to Pittsburgh.

The Floridian too suffered from Penn Central lack of track maintenance between Chicago and Louisville. The trip often took 12 hours or more to travel just over 300 miles. In 1975, they permanantly shifted it to the former Monon line from Chicago to Louisville after some temporary reroutes over the C&EI/L&N between Chicago and Nashville. Most of the through Chicago - Florida passengers were long gone after horrible delays of the first 4 years of Amtrak. The right of ways would need to be updated from Chicago to Jacksonville so travel time would be similar to the City of Miami/SouthWind of the early 1950s to attract any through passengers from Chicago to Florida. You would also have to convince CSX or NS that the upgrades and running a passenger train would be a positive move for them.

Does anyone have a National Limited (Amtrak) and Floridian Timetable they could post?

Thanks MrFSS, I was looking over some maps, just wanted to see how much of the National Limited route still existed. (Answer not much between Pittsburgh and St Louis)

 

[dan72]

What was the train that ran to Duluth in 1976? I was surprised to see that.

Actually - it ran to Superior. The Arrowhead

Thanks for posting this one (I was actually going to ask if anyone had a timetable for this one.) Interesting how this train changed as well. I rode it in 1982 as The North Star and at that time, it did go all the way to Duluth.

 

[MrFSS]

Thanks for posting this one (I was actually going to ask if anyone had a timetable for this one.) Interesting how this train changed as well. I rode it in 1982 as The North Star and at that time, it did go all the way to Duluth.

That would be this table:

 

[dan72]

Thanks for posting this one (I was actually going to ask if anyone had a timetable for this one.) Interesting how this train changed as well. I rode it in 1982 as The North Star and at that time, it did go all the way to Duluth.

That would be this table:

Thanks for posting that! Interesting how the Arrowhead was non-stop and the North Star had three (counting Duluth). Also, it's interesting to see how much earlier the eastbound EB got into Chicago than it does today.

Thanks again!

Dan

 

[Long Train Runnin']

Wow your scanner is getting quite a work out thanks for posting some of the old schedules.

Its funny to see how that one has the KM and Miles as that was during a time when a switch was being considered.

 

[the_traveler]

Interesting how the Arrowhead was non-stop and the North Star had three (counting Duluth).

Also interesting that the Arrowhead's mileage from MSP to Superior was 144 miles, while the North Star showed 150 miles between them!