Changes coming

According to the Amtrak employee newspaper several changes will be upcoming for the fleet in the near future. The DASH8's will be overhauled in Wilmington, and will likely recieve a paint job similar to the GP40's. The overhauls are set to begin in July. The other notable fleet change is the conversion of 60 Cafe Cars into Coaches. What type of Cafe Cars was not specified, but it is set to begin with the new fiscal year.

This must be a sign of Food Service reductions.

AmtrakFan said:

This must be a sign of Food Service reductions.

Click to expand...

Actually, there has always been a surplus of Amfleet I Food Service Cars. Many trains on the NEC would run with extra Food Service Cars in the consist that were just used for revenue seating with the cafe counter closed. Also, there was some talk of these conversions back in the Warrington era when Northeast Direct was being converted to Acela Regional.

The reduction of Food Service is an unlikely cause, but may be part of the decision to do so. My guess is that the Empire Service trains utalized 5-10 Food Service Cars, but thats just my guess. Plus, when the Acela is back online it will free up a good portion of Food Service Cars now on the Metroliners.

As long as there is no reduction in service I think its a good move to add more coaches. However 60 seems like a really large number. Maybe there is a plan to eliminate food service on the majority of regional trains.

As for the Dash8's, those units have atleast another 10 to 20 years in them, and they should look like the rest of the fleet if Amtrak's keeping them.

Food service seems to me to be a profit-making operation, given the prices involved, it always seems to do a good volume of business (at least on Silver Service trains) plus it is another area that sets the train apart as more desirable than flying. I wouldn't mess with it.

Sorry I didn't know there was a surplus in the Midwest we are always short 1 or 2.

AmtrakWPK said:

Food service seems to me to be a profit-making operation, given the prices involved, it always seems to do a good volume of business (at least on Silver Service trains) plus it is another area that sets the train apart as more desirable than flying. I wouldn't mess with it.

Click to expand...

Actually according to the Amtrak Strategic Reform report, Amtrak's losses from food service last year were almost 100 Million dollars. That's one of the reasons for the demise of the cafe car on the Empire Corridor between NYP & ALB.

Do they allocate a percentage of sleeper sales revenue to food service when they compute that (and if so, how much?), or are they just taking total revenue generated by food service, subtracting all of the costs including equipment, personnel and the food itself? They should be allocating the retail price of those meals out of sleeper revenue, but I'll sure bet they're not. Something does not compute, because it sure ain't cheap to buy and eat onboard the train, especially the evening meal in the diner. And gross profits on a can of Pepsi is also huge considering they probably don't pay more than 20 cents for it, if that. It's a whole lot cheaper just to bring your own. But not near as much fun to eat in a coach seat. The most expensive meals my wife and I have had in the past few years have been dinners on the train.

AmtrakWPK said:

Do they allocate a percentage of sleeper sales revenue to food service when they compute that (and if so, how much?), or are they just taking total revenue generated by food service, subtracting all of the costs including equipment, personnel and the food itself? They should be allocating the retail price of those meals out of sleeper revenue, but I'll sure bet they're not. Something does not compute, because it sure ain't cheap to buy and eat onboard the train, especially the evening meal in the diner. And gross profits on a can of Pepsi is also huge considering they probably don't pay more than 20 cents for it, if that. It's a whole lot cheaper just to bring your own. But not near as much fun to eat in a coach seat. The most expensive meals my wife and I have had in the past few years have been dinners on the train.

Click to expand...

I don't have the numbers offhand, but Amtrak does credit a portion of sleeper revenues to the dining car. It would be counter to all logic and sound accounting practices if they didn't.

As for food service losing money, when I buy a can of Pepsi for $1.50 that they probably paid $0.25 for, yes Amtrak is selling at higher than cost. But, what of the LSA's wages and benefits? What of the cost to maintain and operate the equipment?

Dining cars may have high prices, but they also have a lot of staff. Not only does the staff cost money for wages and benefits, but on long-distance trains, Amtrak needs a place to put the staff when they're not working. That means a dormitory car (or a loss of revenue space in a regular sleeper). The dormitory costs money to maintain and operate.

Pretty soon you're talking real money, and it's going to take a *lot* of $1.50 Pepsis to turn a profit on food service.

I'll add one further thought to all that Robert posted. That is, according to Amtrak it would seem that their biggest losses with regard to food service occur on the short haul trains. Not the long distance trains.

I've never ridden anything but the long distance trains (that's all we have down here), so I have no idea what the rest of them are like.

I could see a short haul train on the WAS-NYP route loosing money. Its not a long trip, and the majority of sales I would imagine beeing cans of soda. Maybe Amtrak should consider using vending machines on those trains. Some of the new ones can even make hot to go meals.

I've only ridden the short hauls a couple of times, but in my experience the Cafe has been deader than a doornail. While I was on the Vermonter in November I believe two or three paying customers (including myself) came up to the counter during the 45 minute period I was there. If this is the norm for the Cafe Cars up there it's not hard to see how they would do s badly.

Part of the reason in my eyes why they do so poorly is because of the short distance people are traveling. If someone knows that a meal is coming up during their trip many times they will eat in the station before they get on, bring their own, or eat after they get off because of those high prices in the Lounge and the relative poor quality of food.

I ride between WAS and NYP monthly (at least) and use the cafe car regularly for lunch. I almost never have to wait at the counter, and when I do it is only for 1 or (rarely) 2 people in front of me. So I'd say that volume is one reason Amtrak looses money here on the short haul routes.

Another is the price - Amtrak is not charging enough, in my opinion. I stopped eating in the stations because it cost the same or less to eat on the train. If the choice is $5 for a slice of bad pizza and a soda in NYP that I have to cram down, or $4 for a brat and coke on the train where I can sit down and eat at my leasure, I'll gladly choose the later. In fact, I'd probably pay $6 on the train.

I'll caveat this by saying that living on Long Island for the past 5 years has screwed up my understanding of what a simple meal should cost. I don't even blink anymore if lunch costs $6-8 for a sandwich, drink, and maybe a side.

A sandwich side and drink for me is about $5. I mean it does seem relative to resturant prices, but not resturant quality. A microwaved pizza just isn't the same as an oven fresh pizza.

rmadisonwi said:

AmtrakWPK said:

Do they allocate a percentage of sleeper sales revenue to food service when they compute that (and if so, how much?), or are they just taking total revenue generated by food service, subtracting all of the costs including equipment, personnel and the food itself?  They should be allocating the retail price of those meals out of sleeper revenue, but I'll sure bet they're not.  Something does not compute, because it sure ain't cheap to buy and eat onboard the train, especially the evening meal in the diner.  And gross profits on a can of Pepsi is also huge considering they probably don't pay more than 20 cents for it, if that.  It's a whole lot cheaper just to bring your own.  But not near as much fun to eat in a coach seat.  The most expensive meals my wife and I have had in the past few years have been dinners on the train.

Click to expand...

I don't have the numbers offhand, but Amtrak does credit a portion of sleeper revenues to the dining car. It would be counter to all logic and sound accounting practices if they didn't.

As for food service losing money, when I buy a can of Pepsi for $1.50 that they probably paid $0.25 for, yes Amtrak is selling at higher than cost. But, what of the LSA's wages and benefits? What of the cost to maintain and operate the equipment?

Dining cars may have high prices, but they also have a lot of staff. Not only does the staff cost money for wages and benefits, but on long-distance trains, Amtrak needs a place to put the staff when they're not working. That means a dormitory car (or a loss of revenue space in a regular sleeper). The dormitory costs money to maintain and operate.

Pretty soon you're talking real money, and it's going to take a *lot* of $1.50 Pepsis to turn a profit on food service.

Click to expand...

FWIW with my 57 years on the rails I can say this: I have never heard of the dining car doing anything but lose money.

Now, I do not remember all the whys and wherefores, but I think Robert Madison's ideas(above) are in line with what I have read through the years. I thnk there are reasons in additon to those but I do not remembr what they are.

I also recall, when business people rode the train more than today, it was often stated that the delicious steak an executive gets in the diner might encourge him to ship more freight with the same line.(in private railroad days)

I hope we don't go back to that horrible time around 1979 when we had pastic plates, forks and TV-dinners. That was about the time the beautiful superliner equipment was put on the road. Much was said at the time about what a waste to serve such rinky-dink meals on such beautiful cmplicated equipment.

Amtrak should adopt the airlines new 'Buy On Board' (B.O.B.) method of food service on short distance runs. Selling sanwiches as meals with chips, cookie and a drink for $10. Snack packs for $5. Just a thought.

rmadisonwi said:

AmtrakWPK said:

Do they allocate a percentage of sleeper sales revenue to food service when they compute that (and if so, how much?), or are they just taking total revenue generated by food service, subtracting all of the costs including equipment, personnel and the food itself?  They should be allocating the retail price of those meals out of sleeper revenue, but I'll sure bet they're not.  Something does not compute, because it sure ain't cheap to buy and eat onboard the train, especially the evening meal in the diner.  And gross profits on a can of Pepsi is also huge considering they probably don't pay more than 20 cents for it, if that.  It's a whole lot cheaper just to bring your own.  But not near as much fun to eat in a coach seat.  The most expensive meals my wife and I have had in the past few years have been dinners on the train.

Click to expand...

I don't have the numbers offhand, but Amtrak does credit a portion of sleeper revenues to the dining car. It would be counter to all logic and sound accounting practices if they didn't.

As for food service losing money, when I buy a can of Pepsi for $1.50 that they probably paid $0.25 for, yes Amtrak is selling at higher than cost. But, what of the LSA's wages and benefits? What of the cost to maintain and operate the equipment?

Dining cars may have high prices, but they also have a lot of staff. Not only does the staff cost money for wages and benefits, but on long-distance trains, Amtrak needs a place to put the staff when they're not working. That means a dormitory car (or a loss of revenue space in a regular sleeper). The dormitory costs money to maintain and operate.

Pretty soon you're talking real money, and it's going to take a *lot* of $1.50 Pepsis to turn a profit on food service.

Click to expand...

:lol:

"While I was on the Vermonter in November I believe two or three paying customers (including myself) came up to the counter during the 45 minute period I was there. If this is the norm for the Cafe Cars up there it's not hard to see how they would do s badly"

As LSA who has work many short hauls trains (NYP to WAS) trust me you must came on slow day. On given day I work (especially out of WAS and BOS) I am turning in at least 2,000 a trip .

The way i see it is what times the passengers would be on the shorthaul trains.The Michigan trains do a lot of Food service business and run out of food a lot.

Amfleet said:

Amtrak should adopt the airlines new 'Buy On Board' (B.O.B.) method of food service on short distance runs. Selling sanwiches as meals with chips, cookie and a drink for $10. Snack packs for $5. Just a thought.

Click to expand...

The only thing with that is Passengers want a lot of choices of food.Such as diffrent kinds of Sandwiches chips etc.

Better yet, figure out some way to franchise Cafe car operations.

There's gotta be a way to lure say, Panara Bread or Wendy's, at least for the shorthaul routes.

Or do what SP did years ago, and have vending machines. People would probably pay the $1.50 for a ham and cheese if they could eat it at their leasure on the train.

The primary issue with franchising or concessioning the Food & Beverage is going to be the issue of who will serve the food in dining cars on LDTs? The level of service and attention to the passengers varies a great deal from train to train - and employee to employee. Can a third party food company provide staff that are any better....or more importantly, that are willing to travel long distances on the train and prepare/serve three meals a day. While we can complain about the service, I don't know too many people who are willing to sleep in the Dorm conditions or work the hours the current staff works................and allow the company to save money.

Short hauls may be easier, but not much.

It is going to be interesting to see how this all works out.

The hearing with the Congressinal Oversight Committee regaring Amtrak's losses on Food and Beverage will also be interesting to watch. Amtrak pays too much, doesn't pay enough attention to monitoring Gate Gourmet, the issues of employee theft of food......on and on and on.........

but, we all know change is on its way everyone at Amtrak better get ready for another wild ride.

haolerider said:

The primary issue with franchising or concessioning the Food & Beverage is going to be the issue of who will serve the food in dining cars on LDTs?  The level of service and attention to the passengers varies a great deal from train to train - and employee to employee.  Can a third party food company provide staff that are any better....or more importantly, that are willing to travel long distances on the train and prepare/serve three meals a day.  While we can complain about the service, I don't know too many people who are willing to sleep in the Dorm conditions or work the hours the current staff works................and allow the company to save money.
Short hauls may be easier, but not much.

It is going to be interesting to see how this all works out.

Click to expand...

I was speaking only in terms of shortish hauls, nothing longer than say, Pittsburgh - Philadelphia.

I would think ALB - NYP would be doable -- use current car attendents, but before they can bid, they have to meet the franchisee standards.

And of course, dining cars have lost money for years. Find a couple PRR or NYC annual reports (or say, passenger newsletters) on the web, and they tell of just how much $$$ was lost providing dining car service.

And of course, in this political climate, we may yet see the demise of Amtrak, period.