Keystone Wires Cut

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This criminal is an idiot and should end up being incarcerated, The motivation to steal wire along the railroad is to get peanuts in return from a scrap dealer. How stupid can one be! It should be noted that stealing or tampering with railroad railroad equipment, especially track, is a federal offense. I would not want to be in this guys position when the FRA,DHS and the TSA jump into the picture.
 
dlagrua said:
This criminal is an idiot and should end up being incarcerated, The motivation to steal wire along the railroad is to get peanuts in return from a scrap dealer. How stupid can one be! It should be noted that stealing or tampering with railroad railroad equipment, especially track, is a federal offense. I would not want to be in this guys position when the FRA,DHS and the TSA jump into the picture.
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He is in county jail with a $75,000 bail. If he had cut copper pipes or wires from a local business or house, he would have would hit with routine theft and trespassing charges. But instead the idiot is charged with "Martin was charged with risking catastrophe, disrupting the operation of a train, theft, receiving stolen property and criminal mischief." quoting from another local news source. I doubt if the FRA or DHS will get involved as this being handled by the local police and Amtrak.
 
I wish he did succeed! $75,000 bail is nothing compared to cutting a live 25,000 volt (or whatever it is) line!
rolleyes.gif
He would have saved us all a lot of time and expense!
 
the_traveler said:
I wish he did succeed! $75,000 bail is nothing compared to cutting a live 25,000 volt (or whatever it is) line! He would have saved us all a lot of time and expense!
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The article clearly states that these were low voltage signal wires. 25,000 volts wouldn't kill you anyway (it's the amps that kill). Also, please keep in mind that you're no longer just another member. You're representing the site as a moderator who is now openly wishing death upon a complete stranger. A stranger who is already in custody on serious charges with a bail they cannot meet. Perhaps we should wait for the official verdict before pronouncing our own?
 
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the_traveler said:
I wish he did succeed! $75,000 bail is nothing compared to cutting a live 25,000 volt (or whatever it is) line!
rolleyes.gif
He would have saved us all a lot of time and expense!
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Stealing traction catenary cables is only slightly more difficult than the signal code cables that were in question here. Afterall once you manage to short them to trip the CB, they are no more danger than the low voltage cables. Theft of copper catenary cables became so severe in parts of India that they had to revert to using the less efficient ACSR cables, which are much harder to melt down to something useful and sellable. In many areas they have also simply not replaced the return cables and live with the less efficient return through the ground.
 
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Metal theft, at least in the northwest, is almost always committed by addicts who sell it to finance their habit. When scrap metal dealers are required to keep records of their purchases - as pawn shops do now - we will be much closer to a solution to this problem.
 
Texas Sunset said:
please keep in mind that you're no longer just another member. You're representing the site as a moderator
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True I am a moderator, but I can still express my own personal views, just like any other member!
rolleyes.gif
If I want to say something as a moderator, I always preface it with [moderator's note] or some such statement. Remember that I am still an AU member!
rolleyes.gif
 
The theft of signaling cable is a fairly large problem in the UK. In some locations the cables are actually optical fibre, but then the thieves don't know then until they rip it up, so there is still disruption.
 
Texas Sunset said:
the_traveler said:
I wish he did succeed! $75,000 bail is nothing compared to cutting a live 25,000 volt (or whatever it is) line! He would have saved us all a lot of time and expense!
Click to expand...
The article clearly states that these were low voltage signal wires. 25,000 volts wouldn't kill you anyway (it's the amps that kill). Also, please keep in mind that you're no longer just another member. You're representing the site as a moderator who is now openly wishing death upon a complete stranger. A stranger who is already in custody on serious charges with a bail they cannot meet. Perhaps we should wait for the official verdict before pronouncing our own?
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While that statement (current kills) is true, the 25 kV line has enough current available to pull hundreds of thousands of pounds down the track, more than enough to kill <_< .
 
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Texas Sunset said:
the_traveler said:
I wish he did succeed! $75,000 bail is nothing compared to cutting a live 25,000 volt (or whatever it is) line! He would have saved us all a lot of time and expense.
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The article clearly states that these were low voltage signal wires. 25,000 volts wouldn't kill you anyway (it's the amps that kill). . .
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Concerning the amps: As one of my British former co-workers was known to say, "A pronouncement from the Bureau of the Blooming Obvious." Would seem equally obvious that the overhead would have quite a few amps available in order to push the train down the track, so I would think that hardly needs saying.

jis: I recall reading several years ago, I think it was in the Railway Gazette, that South African Railways was having some other metal rolled into the catenary wire on the contact surface to make it near worthless when melted by the scrapper. The depth of the strip was such that by the time the wire was worn to the condemning limit this metal would be worn off. (For those that don't know, catenary wire is a special shape rolled with a groove for the clamps to hold it. Therefore, it does have a right side up / right side down shape so there is no problem with locating where this strip of metal should be placed.) It was also not uncommon to find the dead bodies of unsuccessful wire thieves along the railway. I would suspect that this also happens in India. I don't know whether this should be called terminal greed or terminal stupidity. I would go for a combination thereof. Somewhat like I regard lotteries as a tax on gullibility and greed.
 
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leemell said:
While that statement (current kills) is true, the 25 kV line has enough current available to pull hundreds of thousands of pounds down the track, more than enough to kill.
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&
George Harris said:
Concerning the amps: As one of my British former co-workers was known to say, "A pronouncement from the Bureau of the Blooming Obvious." Would seem equally obvious that the overhead would have quite a few amps available in order to push the train down the track, so I would think that hardly needs saying.
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It didn't need saying until volts were brought up. It's just a pet peeve of mine when people focus on the wrong part of the equation. The fact that it's a widespread misunderstanding brought about by improper signage doesn't change that it's wrong.

the_traveler said:
True I am a moderator, but I can still express my own personal views, just like any other member! If I want to say something as a moderator, I always preface it with [moderator's note] or some such statement. Remember that I am still an AU member!
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Perhaps you're not aware, but there is a listing of "Global Moderator" on every post you make. If you don't want to be associated with the moderation of the the site while openly wishing for the death of strangers then you could always create another login for that purpose. Then you could call for anyone and everyone to be burned alive for stealing or trespassing or fouling a crossing.
 
George Harris said:
Texas Sunset said:
the_traveler said:
I wish he did succeed! $75,000 bail is nothing compared to cutting a live 25,000 volt (or whatever it is) line! He would have saved us all a lot of time and expense.
Click to expand...
The article clearly states that these were low voltage signal wires. 25,000 volts wouldn't kill you anyway (it's the amps that kill). . .
Click to expand...
Concerning the amps: As one of my British former co-workers was known to say, "A pronouncement from the Bureau of the Blooming Obvious." Would seem equally obvious that the overhead would have quite a few amps available in order to push the train down the track, so I would think that hardly needs saying.
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:lol: well stated!

jis: I recall reading several years ago, I think it was in the Railway Gazette, that South African Railways was having some other metal rolled into the catenary wire on the contact surface to make it near worthless when melted by the scrapper. The depth of the strip was such that by the time the wire was worn to the condemning limit this metal would be worn off. (For those that don't know, catenary wire is a special shape rolled with a groove for the clamps to hold it. Therefore, it does have a right side up / right side down shape so there is no problem with locating where this strip of metal should be placed.) It was also not uncommon to find the dead bodies of unsuccessful wire thieves along the railway. I would suspect that this also happens in India. I don't know whether this should be called terminal greed or terminal stupidity. I would go for a combination thereof. Somewhat like I regard lotteries as a tax on gullibility and greed.
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George, from what I understand, India has played around with tri-metal grooved contact wire for a while, where the grove end is steel reinforced aluminum conductor, and the contact end is copper. That makes the wire more or less useless for thieves since they have to sell it as is, and there is no market for that, and it is too easy to get caught. It is essential that they be able to melt it down into a useful blob of metal for the scheme to be viable, and these tri or bi-metal cables makes that quite difficult. OTOH, it makes the manufacture of the cable considerably more involved and expensive. I think currently they have settled for ACSR catenary and copper grooved contact wire (or as it is referred to in the US "trolley wire").

In India unfortunately it is organized activity often with interesting political connections and overtones.
 
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Texas Sunset said:
It didn't need saying until volts were brought up. It's just a pet peeve of mine when people focus on the wrong part of the equation. The fact that it's a widespread misunderstanding brought about by improper signage doesn't change that it's wrong.
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:lol: afterall they are all related by V = I * R

The constant here is the resistance R of the body. If V = 25kV is applied across the body I will be considerable, and will produce a certain roasting effect since dissipated energy is I^2 * R, whereas if V = 5v is applied across the body I will be miniscule and will cause no harm. So what was the point you were trying to make again?

:help:
 
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Does this guy even know how to use Amtrak wires? Does he know what materials they are made of? If he dosen't know how to use them, why even try stealing?
 
Texas Sunset said:
jis said:
So what was the point you were trying to make again?
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Basically, that high voltage alone is not enough to kill you. So when I see people mention volts as if they're inherently deadly sometimes I speak up.
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If voltage alone did the trick, we would all be electrocuted by the static shock from walking across a carpet and touching a grounded switch plate. That charge and little spark can be about 10,000 volts, more or less.

However, when you get up to really high voltage, the voltage gradient (voltage drop over air-gap distance) can become a problem even absent flowing current. That's why linemen wear special suits with embedded metallic fibers to do bare hand work on EHV lines (345,000 volts and up). They touch the energized conductor with a wand that puts their entire suit, body and work platform (insulated bucket or chopper) at line potential, then they can work the line hot without gradient issues. There is lots and snapping and crackling, and the sensation is a bit "tingly", so I hear. I've touched an energized 69,000 volt conductor bare hand. That was enough for me.
 
jis said:
George, from what I understand, India has played around with tri-metal grooved contact wire for a while, where the grove end is steel reinforced aluminum conductor, and the contact end is copper. That makes the wire more or less useless for thieves since they have to sell it as is, and there is no market for that, and it is too easy to get caught. It is essential that they be able to melt it down into a useful blob of metal for the scheme to be viable, and these tri or bi-metal cables makes that quite difficult. OTOH, it makes the manufacture of the cable considerably more involved and expensive. I think currently they have settled for ACSR catenary and copper grooved contact wire (or as it is referred to in the US "trolley wire").

In India unfortunately it is organized activity often with interesting political connections and overtones.
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The contact (trolley) wire used for most rail catenary applications is bronze. Pure copper is soft and would wear too quickly to be an effective contact wire. However, bronze is not a great conductor (between 40 and 65% of the conductivity of pure, annealed copper). The old PRR catenary for main line, high current applications used an auxillary conductor directly above the trolley wire. The aux wire was soft copper for conductivity and carried the bulk of the current flow. The bronze trolley wire was for contact.

One avenue to avoid copper theft in conventional applications is to use copper-clad steel wires (trade name: Copperweld®). This is a steel wire with a relatively thick (0.1D) coating of copper. It can be used as a single wire or stranded, bare or covered. The thieves know that Copperweld® is sometimes used, and they take a magnet. If the wire looks like copper but the magnet sticks, it's Copperweld® and has no real scrap value.
 
PRR 60 said:
The contact (trolley) wire used for most rail catenary applications is bronze. Pure copper is soft and would wear too quickly to be an effective contact wire. However, bronze is not a great conductor (between 40 and 65% of the conductivity of pure, annealed copper). The old PRR catenary for main line, high current applications used an auxillary conductor directly above the trolley wire. The aux wire was soft copper for conductivity and carried the bulk of the current flow. The bronze trolley wire was for contact.
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In modern electrification, the auxiliary wire seems to have mostly disappeared, specially in 25kV electrifications. I wonder if the new CT catenary at 12kV in NJ will retain the aux wire. It looks like MNRR has gotten rid of them in their 12.5 kV CT catenary. Is this because they have figured out how to make the catenary wire be able to carry enough current to feed the contact wire? Or is it because contact wire technology has improved to make it bi-metak wherein the grooved side has more copper and the contact part is bronze?

One avenue to avoid copper theft in conventional applications is to use copper-clad steel wires (trade name: Copperweld®). This is a steel wire with a relatively thick (0.1D) coating of copper. It can be used as a single wire or stranded, bare or covered. The thieves know that Copperweld® is sometimes used, and they take a magnet. If the wire looks like copper but the magnet sticks, it's Copperweld® and has no real scrap value.
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Yup, Copper or Aluminum conductor with steel reinforcement are commonly used.
 
Texas Sunset said:
jis said:
So what was the point you were trying to make again?
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Basically, that high voltage alone is not enough to kill you. So when I see people mention volts as if they're inherently deadly sometimes I speak up.
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Most warning labels on electrical devices say "Danger High Voltage" - not "Danger, be sure you understand how the equation works before touching." Why don't you quote some Ohm's law to us. Oh wait someone already did that - so the next appropriate response is to put it down.

And as far as a moderator setting an example for the world to see - you yourself manage to make most of your posts into a putdown of one kind or another to either the OP or responders.
 
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Peter KG6LSE said:
69k is not a fun voltage .. to high for gloves// and just too low float on ............... highest I have floated at was about 3 MV .. Off my 10 kVA Tesla Coil ...............Photo 1 Photo 2 Yes I sat on top ........ with E suit on. Peter
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:blink: Sounds like a rush. :lol:

Donctor said:
It seems to me that the person who did this had to have been high, pretty disturbed, or a moron.
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Or simply desperate, and that sort of thing can happen in any state of the union.
 
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PRR 60 said:
jis said:
George, from what I understand, India has played around with tri-metal grooved contact wire for a while, where the grove end is steel reinforced aluminum conductor, and the contact end is copper. That makes the wire more or less useless for thieves since they have to sell it as is, and there is no market for that, and it is too easy to get caught. It is essential that they be able to melt it down into a useful blob of metal for the scheme to be viable, and these tri or bi-metal cables makes that quite difficult. OTOH, it makes the manufacture of the cable considerably more involved and expensive. I think currently they have settled for ACSR catenary and copper grooved contact wire (or as it is referred to in the US "trolley wire").

In India unfortunately it is organized activity often with interesting political connections and overtones.
Click to expand...
The contact (trolley) wire used for most rail catenary applications is bronze. Pure copper is soft and would wear too quickly to be an effective contact wire. However, bronze is not a great conductor (between 40 and 65% of the conductivity of pure, annealed copper). The old PRR catenary for main line, high current applications used an auxillary conductor directly above the trolley wire. The aux wire was soft copper for conductivity and carried the bulk of the current flow. The bronze trolley wire was for contact.

One avenue to avoid copper theft in conventional applications is to use copper-clad steel wires (trade name: Copperweld®). This is a steel wire with a relatively thick (0.1D) coating of copper. It can be used as a single wire or stranded, bare or covered. The thieves know that Copperweld® is sometimes used, and they take a magnet. If the wire looks like copper but the magnet sticks, it's Copperweld® and has no real scrap value.
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Great -- the Copperweld is also almost unrecyclable So when it wears out -- landfill here we come!.
 
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