Crew taking up lounge tables - What would you do?

On the Heartland Flyer there are 2 Conductors (but not 25 sacks of mail) and they almost always are out of sight when doing paperwork. And that train is usually only 3 cars with a small Snack area. When not making the rounds or filling out papers, you can often find them in the Snack area chatting with the LSA or other pax.

On my way to the gathering the LSA had his stuff spread out all over his own table. He did however, have his laptop up with GPS software running for all to see. I thought this was pretty cool. Since on a regional i never even dream of getting a seat in the cafe. People love sitting in there.

VentureForth said:

I agree that the crew should be working out the view or space of the passengers. In Japan on most long distance trains, there are crew booths where the conductor can, with the door open or closed, perform his onboard duties. The door is clearly marked "CONDUCTOR", and as such it is off limits to customers. It is NOT revenue space.
I think the problem on the Viewliner trains is lack of space. But I swear the SA's take up more than just one room when they can, and the crew as mentioned in this thread, like to take over the lounging areas. This is unprofessional and just goes to show that mentality that many of us are disgusted with. I don't know what the union work rules are, but 30 minute

Click to expand...

I've been on a few trains where the SA has taken more than one room. This never bothered me until I was bumped out of room 2 back to room 9, a room I'm not fond of. I suppose I should have called customer service but I wasn't as savy as I am now after joining AU. This SA turned out to be the worst SA I've ever had. His lack of tip was my only revenge at the time.

I have traveled just about every Amtrak route in the past few years, most often traveled on the Silver Service trains. As I have indicated on here before, I have found the service level and attitude on the Silvers to be just about the worst in the entire system. I don't know exactly why, but they just don't seem to care or even acknowledge that paying passengers are an integral part of the equation on the Silvers.

This is one of my pet peeves on Amtrak. Not just the lounge, but also the diner. On my last trip on the Palmetto four of the six tables in the dinette were occupied by crew even though the train always has one out of service coach south of Richmond. I grabbed a spot, but saw many passenger glance uneasily at the vacant spaces where the crew was hanging out, and keep walking. In the diner, the crew is usually hustling, but there are always some tables out of service because they are storing stuff. The whole thing makes it look like an unprofessional operation.

I was thinking, some of the best conversations I've had on trains have occured when I've "had" to squeeze in at a table due to a crowded cafe car. Seems everyone is more relaxed sitting at a table than sitting in a coach seat since usually your facing one another. Last summer I met a college student from Russia who was using Amtrak to tour the USA. This was when the CZ was detoured through Wyoming and she was so excited to see all the wild life, like Bison and prairie dogs.

To give you an insider view to this policy. It's a double edged sword. The Conductor and Asst. Conductor need a place to do their work, a flat surface. With Bulletin Orders, Delay Reports, Manifests, tickets, etc. Most crews take up one table for the Cond. and A/C. OBS crews are not supposed to take up tables, that includes LSA's, dining car staff, coach attendants, etc. Second, most Cond. & A/C use tables in the lounge because it is a central location where they can be found if a problem occurs. Usually most problems occur in the lounge cars.

You'll find most crews are more than willing to accommodate. A major problem are passengers who take up a whole table with their laptop, paperwork, and/or newspapers and will not let passengers who purchase food to sit with them. Amtrak allows this to go on. If a Conductor tells a passenger they cannot take up a lounge table as a revenue seat and must allow others to sit and eat, and that passenger writes a letter, Amtrak will take the side of the passenger breaking who is being downright selfish.

As for taking pictures of these individuals/crew, you do not have that person's permission to take their picture. Just as you would not have permission to take another passengers picture without asking them first. Don't do this because the complaint will be thrown out.

And as for Amtrak employees being overpaid government/union workers, please do a days work in our shoes. Until you know what we do and what we have to know, this is an ignorant statement. Don't let the actions of a few paint the many in a negative light.

I understand asking permission but ..

Don't do this because the complaint will be thrown out.

Click to expand...

I don't even know what that means.

Don't do what? Submit a complaint with a photo of the rule being broken?

I don't understand your comment.

Guest_Mark_* said:

I understand asking permission but ..

Don't do this because the complaint will be thrown out.

Click to expand...

I don't even know what that means.

Don't do what? Submit a complaint with a photo of the rule being broken?

I don't understand your comment.

Click to expand...

To clarify, a picture is worth a 1000 words. While you could submit a picture saying the crew was doing this, the crew or crewmembers can argue, "no we were doing this" and also the fact that the person whose picture was taken was not asked permission to have their photo taken first. At that point, the "Carrier" or Amtrak would have to throw the complaint out and the crew member will not be reprimanded.

Regardless, it's always best to express your dismay to the crew first before just sneakily taking a picture or writing a complaint. The crewmember may apologize, realize they were wrong and change. No one likes a tattletale and I think you will find that most people will realize when they have upset someone or done something wrong, or have a very good reason for doing so. We have long, hard jobs on the railroad. It is impossible to please everyone all the time.

"No one likes a tattletale" Yeah, staff should be able to do whatever they heck they want. :lol:

"We have long, hard jobs on the railroad." Must not be all that bad or you would quit.

While I agree that you guys have a long and at times thankless job and that you're far better off being polite and asking, I don't need your permission to take your picture.

What is the law about taking pictures of either fellow passengers or crew on a train (or any other public conveyance)? I would assume that there is some privacy in a sleeping car compartment (roomette or bedroom), but in a coach, diner, observation, or lounge car, is there any such assumption of privacy?

no one likes a tattle tail huh so if im a paying customer in the lounge and i want to sit down in the lounge to eat but can't because on one end the lounge is filled with pax while on the other end the crew is hogging the seats doing nothing but playing cards watching movies etc. whatever happened to the customer is always right. so crew members are above the rules huh they can get away with anything like celebs who think there above the law. if there doing paper work etc that's different there working but if there off duty go to your room or the space that's made for you.

Greg said:

I have traveled just about every Amtrak route in the past few years, most often traveled on the Silver Service trains. As I have indicated on here before, I have found the service level and attitude on the Silvers to be just about the worst in the entire system. I don't know exactly why, but they just don't seem to care or even acknowledge that paying passengers are an integral part of the equation on the Silvers.

Click to expand...

I agree HOWEVER... I have encountered two of the best attendants on amtrak ever on Silver Trains. There is a lounge car attendant, middle age bald man who is a retired school teacher who is just a joy and must outsell all other lounge cars cause you pretty much want to buy something from him just to thank him for being so darn friendly!

The other was a sleeper attendant I had who made me feel welcome from begginning to end, again a middle age man with greying hair. I wish I could remember his name but he was fantastic as well and earned a $40 tip for a one night stay in a Roomette.

Unfortunately other than these two shining stars, the dining crew, and sleeper attendants are pretty much the worst in the system from what I have seen.

As for the argument... there are two sides to every coin and I think each side has a valid point. First of all... Amtrak staff need a place to work. The operations staff (Conductor etc.) need a place toward the center of the train, and should be allowed to take up space. Also.. the Lounge car attendant should be allowed 1 booth to sit at, since they can not be expected to stand all day long! So that is two booths... I think that is fair... when the crew is taking more than that, they shouldnt, they should sit in the diner, or crew lounge, or somewhere else.

By the way... Amtrak put in a little conductor office in the new Diner Lite style cars on the Single Level fleet and I rarely see it used, generally the Conductor sits in a booth as always... even though there is one less booth open since they put in that office for him.

While I have taken pix twice, and submitted to Cust. Svc., I have no idea if they were "thrown out" or not.

As for the "right", "legality", or "whatever" in taking a pix, I do agree, it SHOULD BE the last option. But when almost an entire OBS crew is sitting, and not one of them is giving ANY indication that they will move (NOT making eye contact, avoiding you, etc.) while you are STANDING with hands full of carry-out trays, and two young kids asking "Daddy, there is no place to sit!" (in a pleasant way, that young kids do, just stating the obvious) These losers OUGHT to have their pix posted on line...................

Hey! Why doesn't one of the OP start a site where "interested individuals" could post pix of Amtrak Employees "not doing their job"? Opps. I bet I just violated some TOS rule.

So be it. I was an OBS for three years. My feet got real tired, I wanted to sit. I wanted to do paperwork. Many of the trains I worked were full or overflowing (college runs outa Chicago). No matter HOW TIRED I was, I always made sure that when it got crowded, I cleaned up any stuff I had on the table right next to the cafe, and made it available to cx.

Let's remember, most of the Amtrak employees ARE good, and want to do the right thing. It's the " a few bad apples spoil the bunch" that worries me.

HokieNav said:

I don't need your permission to take your picture.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm, :blink:

You probably should reconsider your position in regard to this statement (or at least clarify it if I have misread your posting)!

From Amtrak's Photography policy....

 

4. Ticketed passengers on board trains may take photos or video record on a train when it does not interfere with passengers or crew and in accordance with any directions given by Amtrak onboard train personnel.

The rest of Amtrak's photo/video policy may be found by clicking here

Not exercising caution (such as taking pictures of anyone and anything) may cause the person in question to be greeted by Amtrak, host RR, or local police at the very next stop or agreed upon location! h34r:

To the OP (and anyone else), if you encounter adverse behavior from any Amtrak crew member, and it is clear and evident they refuse to govern themselves appropriately, simply document the occurrence(s) in writing. Note dates, days, time, train number, employee names, your reservation number, and any other details (when and whatever is possible), and keep your complaint as short and to the point as possible. Send this complaint by certified return receipt mail to both Amtrak's President and CEO and Customer Service/Relations, and follow up with a phone call when you have ascertained Amtrak has received your letter(s). This is the best way to handle all complaints as it creates a paper trail of documentation. The bad apples will eventually have their day in the spotlight (one they won't necessarily want to be in).

As a customer, we each have a right to receive the transportation that we have paid Amtrak for in a safe and efficient manner. We also have the right to expect adequate customer service from the crew. And Amtrak is obligated to be sure that action occurs in the best interests of their customers.

However, we need to realize that we are not in our own vehicles, homes, etc, and are expected to follow the instructions of those who provide the service we paid for while on their property and govern ourselves accordingly. Anything other than that can and most likely will lead to problems!

I gave 100% of my effort to fulfill my duties as an OBS employee at Amtrak during my tenure. I was in no way associated with the "bad apples." But I still didn't allow anyone to take my picture (if I knew about it that is)! It is / was nothing personal, but I don't belong (nor have any desire to be) in anybody else's family photo album except those of my kin folk. I also, have a right not to be photographed at my place work, either unless my employment calls for it (such as a locomotive cam, etc).

OBS gone freight...

Yeah, I'm intimately familiar with that policy, and snapping a quick picture of crew members skylarking in the lounge certainly doesn't interfere with anything (unless I stand there for an extended period of time blocking the aisle while people try to get past. I certainly wasn't advocating disregarding a crew member if they tell me to stop, but by that point I've got the picture that I need, and made my point. If any of the crew members tell me to stop, of course I would comply, but the policy says that photography is default-allowed until told otherwise, not default-denied until I gain permission, which is what the guest poster was implying.

I would look into that "right not be photographed at my place of work" thing, because I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist (depending on where you work) - there are some transit workers here in DC that are keenly aware of that after customer-submitted pictures of them reading books and sending text messages while operating busses came to light. Obviously if you work on private property your employer can set whatever photo policy they desire. All that being said, if you asked me to not take your picture, I'd certainly comply because it's the only decent thing to do.

yeah how else well we gain proof of you not doing your job or taking up revenue space and denying amtrak revenue when not working. its one thing if you work in the lounge to sit but if the conductor A/C sleeper attendants etc are hogging the lounge and paying customers can't sit to eat thats denying amtrak revenue and needs to stop. AMTRAK EMPLOYEES ARE NOT ABOVE THE RULES REGARDLESS TO WHAT THEY SAY. A picture is worth a 1000 words just ask the one subway employee who was fired when a rider submitted a photo of him texting.

Maybe they should just prominently mark a couple of tables with a sign that says something to the effect: "Amtrak employees only" and then limit employees to those two tables. When the room gets really crowded and if those tables are empty, they can let pax sit there, with the expectation that they might have to relocate if work needs to be done there.

VentureForth said:

I agree that the crew should be working out the view or space of the passengers. In Japan on most long distance trains, there are crew booths where the conductor can, with the door open or closed, perform his onboard duties. The door is clearly marked "CONDUCTOR", and as such it is off limits to customers. It is NOT revenue space.

Click to expand...

The problem is, I do not like trains on which I am isolate from the crew! It's reassuring for a lot of people, for reasons of safety and the conduct of others around them, to know that a crew member is nearby and in the same shared space.

rail_rider said:

I was thinking, some of the best conversations I've had on trains have occured when I've "had" to squeeze in at a table due to a crowded cafe car. Seems everyone is more relaxed sitting at a table than sitting in a coach seat since usually your facing one another. Last summer I met a college student from Russia who was using Amtrak to tour the USA. This was when the CZ was detoured through Wyoming and she was so excited to see all the wild life, like Bison and prairie dogs.

Click to expand...

I have had the same experiences in the lounge; I would say that sharing is no bad thing. Interesting people ride Amtrak! I've also had some great conversations with crew members I've sat with in the lounge; I remember one lasted for the final two hours of a journey from Montreal to Penn Station.

ALC_Rail_Writer said:

While I tend to agree with you about the Superliners, where are the single-level Conductors supposed to work? On the Acela its nice because there's an office in the café, but on every other train he is going to need either a seat in the lounge car or a set of seats in one of the coaches.

Click to expand...

The diner lites do have a conductors office, Micah. I have never seen it used and it is badly designed, but it is there.

Guest Amtrak said:

And as for Amtrak employees being overpaid government/union workers, please do a days work in our shoes. Until you know what we do and what we have to know, this is an ignorant statement. Don't let the actions of a few paint the many in a negative light.

Click to expand...

Not many of us here think that Amtrak employees are overpaid wastrels. I have met many Amtrak employees who are so good, they are clearly underpaid because they should be making a quarter of a million bucks a year for the amount of quality, friendly, diligent work they do.

However, I have seen a few that are not only worth what Amtrak is paying them, but are not worth the air they are consuming on board the train. They are obnoxious, unfriendly, hostile for no good reason, and don't even do their job well, or at all. The majority of Amtrak employees range from competent to excellent. But there are a few that really are as bad as the public thinks they are- and worse.

HokieNav said:

Yeah, I'm intimately familiar with that policy, and snapping a quick picture of crew members skylarking in the lounge certainly doesn't interfere with anything (unless I stand there for an extended period of time blocking the aisle while people try to get past. I certainly wasn't advocating disregarding a crew member if they tell me to stop, but by that point I've got the picture that I need, and made my point. If any of the crew members tell me to stop, of course I would comply, but the policy says that photography is default-allowed until told otherwise, not default-denied until I gain permission, which is what the guest poster was implying.
I would look into that "right not be photographed at my place of work" thing, because I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist (depending on where you work) - there are some transit workers here in DC that are keenly aware of that after customer-submitted pictures of them reading books and sending text messages while operating busses came to light. Obviously if you work on private property your employer can set whatever photo policy they desire. All that being said, if you asked me to not take your picture, I'd certainly comply because it's the only decent thing to do.

Click to expand...

You are interfering if the Amtrak staff deems you to be interfering. They are not required to give you a warning, and the conductor is god on the train. If he decides to stop the train right in the middle of nowhere usher you right out the door, that's done. At which point you have a place to be clearly pissed off, which reduces your credibility- anyone kicked off a train is going to whine, regardless of how legitimate their removal was. And you're off the train, which sucks.

We're not talking about the fair, reasonable, competent employees who would never dream of kicking off a passenger without good solid reason. We are talking about the dumb, lazy A-hole employees. Underestimate their laziness, a-holishness, and inherent dishonesty at your own risk, amigo.

I seriously doubt that a conductor is going to risk his job over a single picture taken. The situation I'm envisioning, you've taken the picture of the lounging crew members before any of them say anything about not taking any pictures. After that point, if you comply with everything that the conductor tells you to do, there can be no way that you can be deemed to be interfering.

Hey! Why doesn't one of the OP start a site where "interested individuals" could post pix of Amtrak Employees "not doing their job"? Opps. I bet I just violated some TOS rule.

Click to expand...

Wow, that would be a cool website!

Would a link to such a site posted here be permitted?

Because I'd be happy to create such a site and host it.

Alan?

Thanks!

HokieNav said:

I seriously doubt that a conductor is going to risk his job over a single picture taken. The situation I'm envisioning, you've taken the picture of the lounging crew members before any of them say anything about not taking any pictures. After that point, if you comply with everything that the conductor tells you to do, there can be no way that you can be deemed to be interfering.

Click to expand...

Pretend the world works that way at your own risk.