Stalled 14(14)

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jis

jis

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According to discussion on this thread on Trainorders, train 14 of the 14th which had 6 PVs tacked onto its tail and was apparently assigned inadequate power, managed to stall going up the Cuesta Grade in spite of a UP helper tacked on. The train was majorly delayed in the process. One theory being discussed is that there are too many P42s subbing for F59s that are out of service for various reasons on LAX area service, and hence an additional P42 which was necessary for this train could not be found.

It passed through OKJ 7 hours late yesterday, and is expected into SEA over 4 hours late tonight.
 
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jis said:
According to discussion on this thread on Trainorders, train 14 of the 14th which had 6 PVs tacked onto its tail and was assigned inadequate power, managed to stall going up the Cuesta Grade in spite of a UP helper tacked on. The train was majorly delayed in the process. One theory being discussed is that there are too many P42s subbing for F59s that are out of service for various reasons on LAX area service, and hence an additional P42 which was necessary for this train could not be found.

It passed through OKJ 7 hours late yesterday, and is expected into SEA over 4 hours late tonight.
Click to expand...
As an aside, I find this fascinating in light of the other discussion about extra service for Comic-Con.
 
jis said:
According to discussion on this thread on Trainorders, train 14 of the 14th which had 6 PVs tacked onto its tail and was assigned inadequate power, managed to stall going up the Cuesta Grade in spite of a UP helper tacked on. The train was majorly delayed in the process. One theory being discussed is that there are too many P42s subbing for F59s that are out of service for various reasons on LAX area service, and hence an additional P42 which was necessary for this train could not be found.

It passed through OKJ 7 hours late yesterday, and is expected into SEA over 4 hours late tonight.
Click to expand...
Eeks! Should Amtrak at some point start declining tag-on PVs? I wonder how much extra revenue did they eventually earn out of this whole process taking into account the money paid by 6 PVs minus the compensation Amtrak will have to pay to disgruntled passengers, extra meals, bustitution if 14 needs to be turned around short of Seattle and all the bad PR generated.
 
Well the problem is that when you have single-level trains, there needs to be an engine on both ends, at least in California. That is the main problem. But that would still take only 1 extra P42DC. Might they have put three engines on the SWC for going up Cajon? Is that typical? Because I know that the CZ with the same length consist gets an extra engine west of Denver.
 
jis said:
According to discussion on this thread on Trainorders, train 14 of the 14th which had 6 PVs tacked onto its tail and was assigned inadequate power, managed to stall going up the Cuesta Grade in spite of a UP helper tacked on. The train was majorly delayed in the process. One theory being discussed is that there are too many P42s subbing for F59s that are out of service for various reasons on LAX area service, and hence an additional P42 which was necessary for this train could not be found.

It passed through OKJ 7 hours late yesterday, and is expected into SEA over 4 hours late tonight.
Click to expand...
i read the link to trainorders. to me, it sounds like an amtrak screwup. if they don't have enough engines to run a railroad maybe they are in the wrong business. does sound like it would be fun to have been on the train though as long as i had no pressing engagements. the people connecting to 28 just have a bus to look forward to anyway because of the slide on that route. i wonder who told their supervisor in lax "i think we're going to be underpowered" and got told "don't worry about it"?
 
yarrow said:
does sound like it would be fun to have been on the train though as long as i had no pressing engagements.
Click to expand...

Yep, I bet it was "party-hardy" time back in those PV's. IINM, they pay Amtrak by the mile; standing time is free! :giggle:
 
jis said:
According to discussion on this thread on Trainorders, train 14 of the 14th which had 6 PVs tacked onto its tail and was apparently assigned inadequate power, managed to stall going up the Cuesta Grade in spite of a UP helper tacked on. The train was majorly delayed in the process. One theory being discussed is that there are too many P42s subbing for F59s that are out of service for various reasons on LAX area service, and hence an additional P42 which was necessary for this train could not be found.

It passed through OKJ 7 hours late yesterday, and is expected into SEA over 4 hours late tonight.
Click to expand...

How much padding does the CS have? It looks like it has three hours of it. Now it's even more late, currently just left Dunsmuir 8 hours 13 minutes late. I'm thinking the train may be travelling less than 79 mph due to inadequate power.

This train looks like it has 18 cars, 11 of them Superliners. I think two P42DCs can haul sixteen single-level or twelve to thirteen double-deckers at 79 mph with no grades. It would be very bad if the train stalled again going through the Cascade or Willamette Mountains.
 
Swadian Hardcore said:
jis said:
According to discussion on this thread on Trainorders, train 14 of the 14th which had 6 PVs tacked onto its tail and was apparently assigned inadequate power, managed to stall going up the Cuesta Grade in spite of a UP helper tacked on. The train was majorly delayed in the process. One theory being discussed is that there are too many P42s subbing for F59s that are out of service for various reasons on LAX area service, and hence an additional P42 which was necessary for this train could not be found.

It passed through OKJ 7 hours late yesterday, and is expected into SEA over 4 hours late tonight.
Click to expand...

How much padding does the CS have? It looks like it has three hours of it. Now it's even more late, currently just left Dunsmuir 8 hours 13 minutes late. I'm thinking the train may be travelling less than 79 mph due to inadequate power.

This train looks like it has 18 cars, 11 of them Superliners. I think two P42DCs can haul sixteen single-level or twelve to thirteen double-deckers at 79 mph with no grades. It would be very bad if the train stalled again going through the Cascade or Willamette Mountains.
Click to expand...
I sure think they can haul more than that! The Auto Train has 40 something autoracks plus usually 16 Superliners. I know that the SE has no REAL grades (yes I know western Virginia, Tennessee, etc, but I'm talking the AT route) and 2 P42DCs do that without any trouble. Bu those Cuesta grades are pretty steep. Just look at it on Google Maps to tell that some major engineering went into that. What surprised me was that it still did not make it with a UP helper, which means three engines wouldn't do it. I think the CS usually runs with two engines during the shorter consist in the fall and winter and then when it goes to 3 FULL sleepers and 4 coaches it has 3 engines, this is regularly, so maybe they sent it out with 2 and a UP somewhere. Not quite sure. I wonder how they got an extra engine up to SLO in just 3 hours. I know one is stationed in SAN and multiple in LAX (not on this occasion) so is one kept in Goleta or SLO? Also, the three hour delay between OKJ and SJC I assume was a crew timeout, right? Like they usually switch in SAC but had to have those people brought down to OKJ to start there?
 
johnny.menhennet said:
Swadian Hardcore said:
jis said:
According to discussion on this thread on Trainorders, train 14 of the 14th which had 6 PVs tacked onto its tail and was apparently assigned inadequate power, managed to stall going up the Cuesta Grade in spite of a UP helper tacked on. The train was majorly delayed in the process. One theory being discussed is that there are too many P42s subbing for F59s that are out of service for various reasons on LAX area service, and hence an additional P42 which was necessary for this train could not be found.

It passed through OKJ 7 hours late yesterday, and is expected into SEA over 4 hours late tonight.
Click to expand...

How much padding does the CS have? It looks like it has three hours of it. Now it's even more late, currently just left Dunsmuir 8 hours 13 minutes late. I'm thinking the train may be travelling less than 79 mph due to inadequate power.

This train looks like it has 18 cars, 11 of them Superliners. I think two P42DCs can haul sixteen single-level or twelve to thirteen double-deckers at 79 mph with no grades. It would be very bad if the train stalled again going through the Cascade or Willamette Mountains.
Click to expand...
I sure think they can haul more than that! The Auto Train has 40 something autoracks plus usually 16 Superliners. I know that the SE has no REAL grades (yes I know western Virginia, Tennessee, etc, but I'm talking the AT route) and 2 P42DCs do that without any trouble. Bu those Cuesta grades are pretty steep. Just look at it on Google Maps to tell that some major engineering went into that. What surprised me was that it still did not make it with a UP helper, which means three engines wouldn't do it. I think the CS usually runs with two engines during the shorter consist in the fall and winter and then when it goes to 3 FULL sleepers and 4 coaches it has 3 engines, this is regularly, so maybe they sent it out with 2 and a UP somewhere. Not quite sure. I wonder how they got an extra engine up to SLO in just 3 hours. I know one is stationed in SAN and multiple in LAX (not on this occasion) so is one kept in Goleta or SLO? Also, the three hour delay between OKJ and SJC I assume was a crew timeout, right? Like they usually switch in SAC but had to have those people brought down to OKJ to start there?
Click to expand...
Lot of "what ifs" innvolved here but If some or all of those PV's were heavyweights (as in 200,000 lbs), then the one UP helper just wasn't enough horses for Cuesta..
 
Something tells me in light of this situation we are going to see a fast track directive coming down limiting the number of Privates per train, at least until Amtrak gets some new meatier power.
 
OlympianHiawatha said:
Something tells me in light of this situation we are going to see a fast track directive coming down limiting the number of Privates per train, at least until Amtrak gets some new meatier power.
Click to expand...
Or a directive that they should be sure that there will be enough healthy P-42's available before attaching 6 PVs to the consist.

Looks like one of those trips: when it rains, it pours.
 
rusty spike said:
Lot of "what ifs" innvolved here but If some or all of those PV's were heavyweights (as in 200,000 lbs), then the one UP helper just wasn't enough horses for Cuesta..
Click to expand...
That's a possibility. Perhaps someone at Amtrak counted cars rather than pounds and figured three engines should do it, but if the PVs were heavyweights...

That would be a definite screwup. Obviously Amtrak's short on motive power, so it needs to have a policy to postpone private car moves if there's not enough motive power for them.
 
BTW anyone knows WHY there were six PVs tagged on to this particular CS? Any particular event going on somewhere or just a coincidence where lots of rich people wanted to travel up the coast on the same day?
 
11 Superliners on the CS? What was the consist? I know that you've got the PPC/CCC, the Diner, and the Cafe/SSL What was the remainder...5 coaches, 2 sleepers, and a Transdorm?
 
Fair enough...I thought five coaches seemed like an awful lot, but we're getting to that point with the Silvers...so no clue if any of the bilevel LDs were begging that sort of treatment.

As to the PVs, I did just realize that unless I missed something, there doesn't seem to be a place to note the weight of cars (even approximately) on the PV form. If Amtrak isn't taking this into account, then compared to the 58 tons for Amfleet coaches and 74 tons for Superliner coaches (I don't have a good number on the remaining Heritage fleet diners or the rough weights of streamlined cars handy), 100 tons for a Heavyweight is a big potential issue (4-5 of these weigh about the same as a normal Regional, for comparison).

I hate to say, but this one is on Amtrak for not requiring an approximate weight indication (even to the nearest 5-10t) to avoid a potential problem if they get stuck with 5-6 heavyweight cars at a go.
 
I'm all for Amtrak handling PVs, but their first priority is (or must be) the normal passengers on the train. If there are many PVs that will interfere with the normal operation of the train, get another engine or deny them...
 
Amtrak handles normal passengers and does so at a loss. Handling PVs increases revenue, therefore it will probably always be a priority over running trains under their "normal operation".
 
VentureForth said:
Amtrak handles normal passengers and does so at a loss. Handling PVs increases revenue, therefore it will probably always be a priority over running trains under their "normal operation".
Click to expand...
But if increasing the revenue actually lands up costing more than the increased revenue overall, that would be a problem. I have no idea how it all computes out and sometimes I am not even sure that Amtrak does either, since they do not see it fit to report it as an item in their audited accounts. :(
 
johnny.menhennet said:
Well the problem is that when you have single-level trains, there needs to be an engine on both ends, at least in California. That is the main problem. But that would still take only 1 extra P42DC. Might they have put three engines on the SWC for going up Cajon? Is that typical? Because I know that the CZ with the same length consist gets an extra engine west of Denver.
Click to expand...
The single-level Surfliners are running with cabbage cars, so no additional engine requirements there.

The main problem right now is the F59s are up there in years and mileage, and haven't had a major rebuild so their failure rate is a bit high.

Don't know all the details of the stalled Starlight, but it sounds like they would have made it if the engines had been running properly. There may have been a mechanical defect with the freight engine added in SLO, or with one of the P42s out of LAX.
 
Trogdor said:
johnny.menhennet said:
Well the problem is that when you have single-level trains, there needs to be an engine on both ends, at least in California. That is the main problem. But that would still take only 1 extra P42DC. Might they have put three engines on the SWC for going up Cajon? Is that typical? Because I know that the CZ with the same length consist gets an extra engine west of Denver.
Click to expand...
The single-level Surfliners are running with cabbage cars, so no additional engine requirements there.

The main problem right now is the F59s are up there in years and mileage, and haven't had a major rebuild so their failure rate is a bit high.

Don't know all the details of the stalled Starlight, but it sounds like they would have made it if the engines had been running properly. There may have been a mechanical defect with the freight engine added in SLO, or with one of the P42s out of LAX.
Click to expand...
Ok, did not know that the 'new' single level had a cabbage, but I am almost certain that the one we've had for a while is definitely a double-header. You're right that there is a high failure rate. It am not surprised when I see a stalled train for reasons other than congestion. Luckily it has not recently happened to me.
 
johnny.menhennet said:
Trogdor said:
johnny.menhennet said:
Well the problem is that when you have single-level trains, there needs to be an engine on both ends, at least in California. That is the main problem. But that would still take only 1 extra P42DC. Might they have put three engines on the SWC for going up Cajon? Is that typical? Because I know that the CZ with the same length consist gets an extra engine west of Denver.
Click to expand...
The single-level Surfliners are running with cabbage cars, so no additional engine requirements there.

The main problem right now is the F59s are up there in years and mileage, and haven't had a major rebuild so their failure rate is a bit high.

Don't know all the details of the stalled Starlight, but it sounds like they would have made it if the engines had been running properly. There may have been a mechanical defect with the freight engine added in SLO, or with one of the P42s out of LAX.
Click to expand...
Ok, did not know that the 'new' single level had a cabbage, but I am almost certain that the one we've had for a while is definitely a double-header. You're right that there is a high failure rate. It am not surprised when I see a stalled train for reasons other than congestion. Luckily it has not recently happened to me.
Click to expand...
Sometimes the AmFleet set has a double header (with any combination P32, F59 or P42) other times it's just an engine on one end and a cabbage car (90230 or 90208)
 
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