Bolt Bus Coming to the Northwest
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fairviewroad
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Well, you can't beat the price. And their schedule between Seattle and Portland (and back) is strikingly similar to the Cascades schedule
(with the notable exception that Bolt Bus makes no intermediate stops...sorry, Tacoma/Olympia/Longview/etc!)
Another difference of course is the curbside terminals...could be a real deal-killer in the long rainy winters, but at least they're starting at the
right time of year, weather-wise. The Seattle location appears to be near some transit-style canopies that would offer some protection from
the rain...but AFAICT the PDX location is a bare sidewalk in front of a parking garage. King St Station and Union Station are the clear winners
in both cases.
Will this take some customers from Amtrak? Absolutely, especially with the near-term publicity boost they'll get in the media. But at the
end of the day, it's still a bus ride....the Cascades will still offer the better experience by far.
(with the notable exception that Bolt Bus makes no intermediate stops...sorry, Tacoma/Olympia/Longview/etc!)
Another difference of course is the curbside terminals...could be a real deal-killer in the long rainy winters, but at least they're starting at the
right time of year, weather-wise. The Seattle location appears to be near some transit-style canopies that would offer some protection from
the rain...but AFAICT the PDX location is a bare sidewalk in front of a parking garage. King St Station and Union Station are the clear winners
in both cases.
Will this take some customers from Amtrak? Absolutely, especially with the near-term publicity boost they'll get in the media. But at the
end of the day, it's still a bus ride....the Cascades will still offer the better experience by far.
The $8 and $10 prices are clearly service introductory prices. They may keep a handful of seats at the really cheap price, but will go to $15 to $25 prices, if the prices if Boltbus charges in the northeast are any guide. Still pretty cheap.
The Boltbus trip time is 3:15 versus 3:30 for the Cascades so the bus will have an edge in trip time, but a small one. The Cascade trains will get faster between Seattle and Portland, but I think significant improvements in trip time are 4-5 years away.
This service could take some ridership away from the Cascades, but there has been no obvious erosion of ridership on any of the Amtrak corridors that compete head to head with Megabus and Boltbus. Except perhaps for the Vermonter. There could be some synergy component that we have not considered in that the discount buses likely get business from people who would normally drive. Those passengers realize that they can get around at their destination without a car and like not having to drive. Then they learn that they can also take Amtrak, and if they can afford to pay a little more, try Amtrak instead. Having both discount direct bus and passenger train options between major markets for 2-6 hour trips may result in growth for both by expanding the market and getting people take the train or bus over driving or ever more expensive airfares.
As for the curb side pickup, in DC, Megabus and Boltbus were pressured to switch to using the DC Union Station parking garage. DC government and police got tired of dealing with the traffic and crowd problems caused by the curbside pickup locations. So they and Greyhound moved to the parking garage and are now paying an access fee for use of the garage. I saw an article that NYC is considering clamping down on the curb side buses as well, but does not have an obvious candidate for the buses to move to. More of the big cities will likely do the same, which will push up the cost overhead for the discount bus services.
The Boltbus trip time is 3:15 versus 3:30 for the Cascades so the bus will have an edge in trip time, but a small one. The Cascade trains will get faster between Seattle and Portland, but I think significant improvements in trip time are 4-5 years away.
This service could take some ridership away from the Cascades, but there has been no obvious erosion of ridership on any of the Amtrak corridors that compete head to head with Megabus and Boltbus. Except perhaps for the Vermonter. There could be some synergy component that we have not considered in that the discount buses likely get business from people who would normally drive. Those passengers realize that they can get around at their destination without a car and like not having to drive. Then they learn that they can also take Amtrak, and if they can afford to pay a little more, try Amtrak instead. Having both discount direct bus and passenger train options between major markets for 2-6 hour trips may result in growth for both by expanding the market and getting people take the train or bus over driving or ever more expensive airfares.
As for the curb side pickup, in DC, Megabus and Boltbus were pressured to switch to using the DC Union Station parking garage. DC government and police got tired of dealing with the traffic and crowd problems caused by the curbside pickup locations. So they and Greyhound moved to the parking garage and are now paying an access fee for use of the garage. I saw an article that NYC is considering clamping down on the curb side buses as well, but does not have an obvious candidate for the buses to move to. More of the big cities will likely do the same, which will push up the cost overhead for the discount bus services.
fairviewroad
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With just 4 departures a day, I think it will be a while before BoltBus is forced off the curbs in SEA or PDX. Kind of interesting that even though it's a subsidiary of Greyhound, they
don't use the Greyhound terminal. That tells me their target market is people who would never have considered an intercity bus before...(i.e. to them, there's a stigma
associated with riding Greyhound that doesn't exist when the Dog is out of sight, out of mind.)
And the edge in trip time is dependent on good traffic conditions....easy to hit slowdowns on I-5 coming into SEA or PDX. But I think 3hrs, 15 minutes non-stop does
include a bit of padding.
don't use the Greyhound terminal. That tells me their target market is people who would never have considered an intercity bus before...(i.e. to them, there's a stigma
associated with riding Greyhound that doesn't exist when the Dog is out of sight, out of mind.)
And the edge in trip time is dependent on good traffic conditions....easy to hit slowdowns on I-5 coming into SEA or PDX. But I think 3hrs, 15 minutes non-stop does
include a bit of padding.
Yes, 4 buses a day won't be a big issue for curb side operation. But, Boltbus is obviously planning to expand service in the Northwest. Would not gone to the trouble if they didn't. It took a few years for Megabus operations to get to the point where DC acted. We are likely to see more big cities with traffic and people jams from the curb side operations start to try to crack down.
What Greyhound is doing is a common business tactic. Got a brand name with negative associations? Start a new subsidary with a different brand name and market strategy. With Megabus and the chinese discount buses cutting into the Greyhound market, start up Boltbus with a different website & look and follow the Megabus model.
One thing I'm curious about is what are the On Time Performance numbers for Megabus and Boltbus? Amtrak provides that info and we can monitor via Amtrak Status Map how close the trains are to their schedules. Don't know if Megabus or Boltbus provide that sort of info.
Texan Eagle
Conductor
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The three times I have taken Megabus in the Northeast, it has always arrived at the destination before published time, and this includes one journey that had to deal with the dreaded I-66 traffic going out of Washington DC. They put in some padding, but I guess their drivers overspeed too. For example, when I was in Virginia Tech, I used to go to DC often and knew it always took me around 4 hr 15 min from Christiansburg to DC going by my normal convention of exactly sticking to posted limit, but the one time I took Megabus, the cheerful young black dude driving the bus bolted (no pun intended) us in 4 hours flat! He wasn't rash, but fast for sure.
I can attest to the synergy component. I'm not sure how I stumbled on Megabus, but before that I had only briefly considered intercity public transportation. After using it last year and having an overall good experience (and seeing how much easier it is than driving or even flying), I decided to look into both that and other alternatives, including Amtrak. I've taken Amtrak once for a short distance, and I'm taking a longer trip this summer on Amtrak.
Megabus is generally on time, in my experience. There's one route that I've traveled on that's always late (because they don't schedule a required rest stop...it's PIT - DET), but I've usually been early getting in, and never more than a few minutes late arriving outside of that one route.
RRUserious
OBS Chief
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"Amtrak status map". That's on their smartphone app right? Someone on my Empire Builder ride showed me where we were on their smartphone, but I'm pretty sure that was some GPS mapping app. Air France does the same thing when you fly across the Atlantic. I like to skip from the entertainment (whatever it might be) and look at their map.
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Amtrak Status Maps is privately maintained by an AU member, not Amtrak. It is based on data from the Amtrak.com Train Status feature.
http://www.dixielandsoftware.com/.
RRUserious
OBS Chief
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Don't quite get it, but doesn't matter.
fairviewroad
Engineer
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Interesting that they seem to be skipping Salem. Wouldn't have thought that Albany would be a better choice than Salem,
I guess they're angling for the Oregon State University student market, but Albany isn't super convenient for OSU students
considering that Greyhound stops in Corvallis within walking distance of the campus. Salem is a larger city than Albany
and it would seem to offer several easy on/off options for a bus coming off of I-5.
I know their business model doesn't really include en route stops, but if that's the case then why stop in Albany at all?
A PDX-EUG route would probably do well on its own. I can't help but think, at the end of the day, that this new service
will eat into the ODOT sponsored Amtrak Thruway buses on this route.
I guess they're angling for the Oregon State University student market, but Albany isn't super convenient for OSU students
considering that Greyhound stops in Corvallis within walking distance of the campus. Salem is a larger city than Albany
and it would seem to offer several easy on/off options for a bus coming off of I-5.
I know their business model doesn't really include en route stops, but if that's the case then why stop in Albany at all?
A PDX-EUG route would probably do well on its own. I can't help but think, at the end of the day, that this new service
will eat into the ODOT sponsored Amtrak Thruway buses on this route.
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Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
On my frequent Greyhound rides, I have rarely seen college-age people on the buses. Since BoldBus in the PNW is fully owned by Greyhound, the same can be assumed for them.
Bolt needs at least daily buses to deal with demand in the area. I'm thinking the buses for this expansion must be from Greyhound's recent order of 90 Prevost X3-45 buses, the main type used by Bolt. I think Bolt uses the Grey Line garage in Seattle on Marginal Way, which is also used by regular Greyhound G4500s. Thus, they always need runs back to Seattle to service the buses.
While I'm unhappy at the propect of riding more G4500s if I visit the PNW, I do want to take advantage of Road Rewards so I will probably still use the G4500s. At least it's $13 compared to $25 on Amtrak, and I will save that $12, thank you.
I don't know if Greyhound ever gets the BoltBus and the PNW operating pools mixed up, otherwise you could see a Bolt Prevost on 601 (VAN-SEA-PUT) and a G4500 as the BoltBus.
Bolt needs at least daily buses to deal with demand in the area. I'm thinking the buses for this expansion must be from Greyhound's recent order of 90 Prevost X3-45 buses, the main type used by Bolt. I think Bolt uses the Grey Line garage in Seattle on Marginal Way, which is also used by regular Greyhound G4500s. Thus, they always need runs back to Seattle to service the buses.
While I'm unhappy at the propect of riding more G4500s if I visit the PNW, I do want to take advantage of Road Rewards so I will probably still use the G4500s. At least it's $13 compared to $25 on Amtrak, and I will save that $12, thank you.
I don't know if Greyhound ever gets the BoltBus and the PNW operating pools mixed up, otherwise you could see a Bolt Prevost on 601 (VAN-SEA-PUT) and a G4500 as the BoltBus.
Can the same clientele be assumed for BoltBus and Greyhound? I would imagine that BoltBus targets a similar market as Megabus does. Where I am, in the Midwest, I know college students who would (almost) never consider Greyhound (or Indian Trails, Jefferson Lines, Lamers Connect, and other intercity bus providers) do consider and ride Megabus (and Amtrak). (I realize Megabus does not operate in the Northwest, and BoltBus does not operate in the Midwest.)
Having said that, my knowledge of intercity bus travel is far less than yours, and my evidence is simply anecdotal (I work at a university).
Having said that, my knowledge of intercity bus travel is far less than yours, and my evidence is simply anecdotal (I work at a university).
To be fair, many of those other services (outside of Greyhound) serve different markets than Megabus does. Just comparing against Jefferson Lines, the only somewhat similar markets are MKE - MSP and Madison - MSP. On both of those I don't think JL even tries to compete...they're serving as the "local" bus through there versus the Megabus "express" bus.
That being said, I think JL is trying to break out a bit through their "College Connection" program which serves colleges and offers connectivity to their larger network.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
Well, Bolt is owned by them, uses the same bus models, uses the same drivers, uses the same routes, etc. I buy Greyhound tickets online, I can do the same for BoltBus.
As a regular passenger, I would feel the same on BoltBus as Greyhound. If I put my "bus geek" hat on, the X3-45 does have curved sides compared to the straight sides on the G4500 and many of the other Greyhound buses that are irrelevent here because the other buses don't run in the Northwest. The G4500 does break down a lot more than any other Greyhound bus. But I doubt most bus passengers or college students would notice the difference.
These days a lot of Greyhound passengers I see are older people and families. On my last Greyhound trip, there was about a dozen middle-aged men, a family with small, a family with a teenager, a couple, a single young man with a big afro, two very large women in their 30s, an older woman, and the others I don't remember. Very few people were college-aged. We had a load of about 30-40 passengers.
Same company, but different brands. Seems like it is at least possible that the different brands are targeting different market segments/passengers.
There's a very good reason why Bolt Bus is called Bolt Bus, and not "Greyhoud [somethong or another]." There are plenty of folks who swear off Greyhound who won't hesitate to buy a Bolt Bus ticket. Greyhound as a brand can be a liability with certain demographics, so calling it Bolt is Greyhound's way of getting people who otherwise wouldn't ride their buses to ride their buses.
(In a similar vein, there are folks who won't drink Starbucks coffee out of principle, but have no problem drinking "Seattle's Best" coffee.)
(In a similar vein, there are folks who won't drink Starbucks coffee out of principle, but have no problem drinking "Seattle's Best" coffee.)
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
Ha! Looks like there's good reason to mock those fools who miss the markings on Greyhound-BoltBus:
Operated By:
Greyhound Lines Inc.
Dallas, TX
USDOT 044110
Yeah, that's right! I would try BoltBus if there fares didn't go up higher than Greyhound's. It's $13 SEA-PUT on Greyhound, but often $20 or $25 on BoltBus. For that fare, I would just ride the Cascades. Very rare to get the advertised low fares on Bolt.
Whatever, those college students may be knowledgable in their own profession, but they're sure fools with transport! Missing the Operator tag.....
Greyhound and Peter Pan jointly started Bolt as a means to fight low cost, cut-rate carrier's on the Northeast Corridor, with non-terminal, curbside operation. The company started with management and driver's recruited from the ranks of both companies, but are a separate operation from their parents. The buses are painted in the Bolt colors, and are dedicated to that operation, even though they say Greyhound Lines in the small, legal letters. The driver's are not interchangeable and only work on Bolt services. The New York based buses and driver's are worked out of Peter Pan's garage at Secaucus, NJ. As for the Pacific Northwest, I have only knowledge of what I read here on this forum.
One interesting addition to Bolt is services on Long Island....the buses are painted in the Bolt scheme, but are owned and operated by a Long Island based
carrier...sort of like a 'franchise'.......
Edit: Uh, oh.....I see that they gave up on that last idea....the Bolt website now says that the Long Island operation is run by a '7-Bus', and is not affiliated with Bolt........
One interesting addition to Bolt is services on Long Island....the buses are painted in the Bolt scheme, but are owned and operated by a Long Island based
carrier...sort of like a 'franchise'.......
Edit: Uh, oh.....I see that they gave up on that last idea....the Bolt website now says that the Long Island operation is run by a '7-Bus', and is not affiliated with Bolt........
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You should go educate them.
While you're at it, inform them of how lucky they are to not be riding on a Van Hool.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
Oh, don't you worry! I educate them every time I can. Why pay the same fare for BoltBus when you can ride Amtrak? I try to tell all the tricks I can with intercity buses, where to sit on what bus and such.
Maybe I should start a blog about Greyhound buses. I'll do it when I have the time.
J
Jason McHuff
Guest
Albany is a really interesting choice in that Greyhound quit stopping there a while back (even though they do still go through the city on the way to/from Corvallis). The only plus I can think of is being closer to I-5 than Corvallis, but Salem is even closer and has a university and is a much bigger city.
Salem would be nice since the cheap transit connection between Portland and Salem runs only during weekday rush hours and takes a lot longer.
Salem would be nice since the cheap transit connection between Portland and Salem runs only during weekday rush hours and takes a lot longer.
fairviewroad
Engineer
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I agree with this. The "cheap transit connection" doesn't even run as far as Portland. It only gets you as far as Wilsonville. Getting all the
way to Portland is a three-seat ride.
I think the explanation for Albany is that they wouldn't be undercutting Greyhound business there. I expect that a non-stop Corvallis-Portland
route would do very well if timed to college student peak travel times.
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