Difference between "hertitage" and current sleeper cars?

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Well hello there!

I was curious if there's a difference between the old sleeper cars inherited by Amtrak and the current Viewliners and Superliners.

From what I've seen, Amtrak has retired all of their heritage sleeper cars, but VIA rail still uses them, under the name "Stainless Steel Sleeper Car".

Most of these "Stainless Steel Sleeper Cars" are probably either a Budd Rail or Pullman car. But I'm not 100% sure.

Is there any real difference between the on board amenities of the old heritage cars?

Do they have the usual roomette or bedroom options, maybe with an accessible bedroom put in for ADA compliance?

Was there any difference in comfort between the older and newer cars?

Anything found on the old cars that aren't seen today (with the viewliners and superliners)?
 
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While the various pre-Amtrak railroads used many different configurations of Sleepers, most if not all of the Heritage Sleepers were "10-6" configuration, meaning they have 10 Roomettes and 6 Double Bedrooms, which are fairly close to the current Superliner/Viewliner accommodations. Never having ridden in one, I'm pretty sure the Heritage Roomettes only had 1 bunk whereas the current ones have 2.
 
The invention of the word "heritage" seems to make people think that there is one specific kind of car called Heritage. That is not. It is an arbitrary name Amtrak coined to designate those old cars it wanted to keep and to have Head End Power.

It is just that Amtrak whittled down its inherited sleeping cars to use the type which had 10 roomettes and 6 double bedrooms. This makes people think that all cars before Amtrak were of this configuration.

Not so. There were eight or nine different kinds of rooms in the old cars with many different floor plans. Keep in mind that there were many railroads operating many passenger trains in the past. So do not expect the kind of uniformity on a national scale that we have today on Amtrak. The whole world of sleepers, diners, lounges,etc was quite different from today. Much diversity.

The old cars which VIA kept had, when built in 1954, four sections, four roomettes, five double bedrooms and one compartment. They have been reworked to have three sections, four roomettes and six double bedrooms, though they call them by other names. There is another floor plan on the Canadian but not sure from memory what it is, and cannot look it up because I am on my way out to dinner.

Comfort is a different thing to different people but I, old enough to remember the old days, do not think there was much difference.

All the major builders participated. Budd, American Car and Foundry and Pullman Standard. The VIA equipment is all or most Budd. Budd was the best.

One biggie that Amtrak has over the past is the use of showers. The old trains had very few showers. It was mostly just one room in one car of one train that had a shower, and that room was normally known as a Master Room.

Another is the coffee, orange juice, etc the old trains did not have that in the sleepers.

Many trains were made of stainless steel. The word usage you note is an advertising ploy, not an exact designation. All of the Canadian's equipment is stainless steel. That was a big deal when stainless steel was new.

Thee was no such things as accessible rooms in the past. all of society has improved in those ways.
 
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While the various pre-Amtrak railroads used many different configurations of Sleepers, most if not all of the Heritage Sleepers were "10-6" configuration, meaning they have 10 Roomettes and 6 Double Bedrooms, which are fairly close to the current Superliner/Viewliner accommodations. Never having ridden in one, I'm pretty sure the Heritage Roomettes only had 1 bunk whereas the current ones have 2.
That is correct, old roomettes only slept one.
 
Well hello there!

I was curious if there's a difference between the old sleeper cars inherited by Amtrak and the current Viewliners and Superliners.

From what I've seen, Amtrak has retired all of their heritage sleeper cars, but VIA rail still uses them, under the name "Stainless Steel Sleeper Car".

Most of these "Stainless Steel Sleeper Cars" are probably either a Budd Rail or Pullman car. But I'm not 100% sure.

Is there any real difference between the on board amenities of the old heritage cars?

Do they have the usual roomette or bedroom options, maybe with an accessible bedroom put in for ADA compliance?

Was there any difference in comfort between the older and newer cars?

Anything found on the old cars that aren't seen today (with the viewliners and superliners)?
Be sure to read my longer post number 3. I revised it a time or two, and to say there was no such thing as handicapped bedrooms in the past.
 
The invention of the word "heritage" seems to make people think that there is one specific kind of car called Heritage. That is not. It is an arbitrary name Amtrak coined to designate those old cars it wanted to keep and to have Head End Power.

It is just that Amtrak whittled down its inherited sleeping cars to use the type which had 10 roomettes and 6 double bedrooms. This makes people think that all cars before Amtrak were of this configuration.

Not so. There were eight or nine different kinds of rooms in the old cars with many different floor plans. Keep in mind that there were many railroads operating many passenger trains in the past. So do not expect the kind of uniformity on a national scale that we have today on Amtrak. The whole world of sleepers, diners, lounges,etc was quite different from today. Much diversity.

The old cars which VIA kept had, when built in 1954, four sections, four roomettes, five double bedrooms and one compartment. They have been reworked to have three sections, four roomettes and six double bedrooms, though they call them by other names. There is another floor plan on the Canadian but not sure from memory what it is, and cannot look it up because I am on my way out to dinner.

Comfort is a different thing to different people but I, old enough to remember the old days, do not think there was much difference.

All the major builders participated. Budd, American Car and Foundry and Pullman Standard. The VIA equipment is all or most Budd. Budd was the best.

One biggie that Amtrak has over the past is the use of showers. The old trains had very few showers. It was mostly just one room in one car of one train that had a shower, and that room was normally known as a Master Room.

Another is the coffee, orange juice, etc the old trains did not have that in the sleepers.
Bill is right on the money as far as "heritage" is concerned. I think VIA has completely retired all their ex-CN "Blue Fleet" which was mostly CCF (Canadian sister of ACF) CorTen steel cars, and VIA's sleeper fleet, aside from the Renaissance cars, is all Budd, from the huge 1955 CP "Canadian" order.

There were many configurations of sleeping cars, as Bill pointed out. The dominant room types in order of size were Roomettes, Double Bedrooms, Compartments, and Drawing Rooms, although there were others, such as the Master Room and Single Bedrooms. There were also open sections. VIA's Budd sleeper fleet contains all four of these room types, BTW, although they now call them by different names. Roomettes are "Cabins for 1" both Double Bedrooms and Compartments are "Cabins for 2" with the larger Compartments being a good deal for the price of a Double Bedroom. I think as far as VIA is concerned, only Chateau cars carry compartments, but am not sure about that. Drawing Rooms are "Cabins for 3" and Bedroom Suite (2 Double Bedrooms with the partition opened) is "Cabins for 4".

The traditional roomette is a different accomodation than the Amtrak Economy Bedroom, now called a "roomette". It was for one person, the bed folded down from the wall and was SIGNIFICANTLY wider and with a regular mattress, and there was a sink and toilet, although the toilet was under the bed when it was down. In terms of bed quality, the only bed on Amtrak Superliners that is equivalent to the beds in the older cars is the lower in the Delux Bedroom and Family Room. All beds in rooms on the old equipment were wider and had full mattresses and were much more comfortable. Even the open section's lower, which was created from the two facing seats similar to Amtrak roomette was a great wide bed. Some considered the lower section berth to be the best bed on the train. The Superliner roomette's lower and all Superliner uppers are much narrower and less cushioned than their predecessors. They are more equivalent to some Slumbercoaches.

The Superliner Delux Bedroom is kind of somewhere between a Double Bedroom and a Compartment. A bit bigger than a Double Bedroom, but a bit smaller than a Compartment.

With regard to showers, that is Amtrak's big improvement over the past, as Bill pointed out. The in-car coffee service also, although some railroads has complimentary wake-up coffee service for Pullman passengers with the porter delivering coffee to you in your room. Santa Fe for sure had that.

There were no "handicapped" rooms. The construction of those cars, the last in the mid 1950s, long predated the ADA.

BTW-Eva Marie Saint occupied a Drawing Room on the 20th Century Limited in North by Northwest. And open sections were the accomodations in Some Like It Hot. I don't know of any cinematic capture of a Roomette or Double Bedroom.
 
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Anyone know anything about the notion that Amtrak might be considering using the Heritage 10-6 sleepers previously modified into baggage/dorm cars which they still have in active service again? It is a notion that I recently saw floated by someone (and largely shot down) in a post on the wall of Amtrak's facebook page. In view of rising ridership and new sleepers still being a ways out, I can see how this could potentially free up at least some revenue space.
 
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The reason the Heritage Sleepers and other Heritage cars except Diners had to be retired is because Congress passed a law that passenger trains must have retention toilets as opposed to the hopper system in older passenger cars. It would have been very expensive to modify the toilets, particularly in the sleepers that had 14 toilets. The Heritage Diners have no toilets so that is why they are able to soldier on. I think the older Heritage Sleepers had more compfortable beds as Zephyr 17 indicated, the roomette mattresses were wider and thicker. The cars that had all larger rooms such as 4DBR, 2CPT, 2DR Cars operated by Santa Fe on Chicago to West Coast trains and SCL New York-Florida trains were very spacious and great for families. I remember traveling in a Drawing Room with my parents and brother...it seemed just like being at home. Some of these cars were owned by Amtrak and continued to operate on the pre-Amtrak trains they were on until Amtrak standardized everything to 10R/6DBR or Slumbercoaches. With today's cookie cutter world, the variety of accomodations that were once offered would not be very practicle.
 
Anyone know anything about the notion that Amtrak might be considering using the Heritage 10-6 sleepers previously modified into baggage/dorm cars which they still have in active service again? It is a notion that I recently saw floated by someone (and largely shot down) in a post on the wall of Amtrak's facebook page. In view of rising ridership and new sleepers still being a ways out, I can see how this could potentially free up at least some revenue space.
Amtrak is thinking of using them (upto 11 of them) as Dorm cars pending the arrival of the Viewliner Bag-Dorms. This was publicly stated by an Amtrak representative from Amtrak HQ at the ESPA/NARP New York Region meeting in Schenectady last Saturday, so what someone says on Facebook is probably of less relevance. Note though that they will not be used for providing any commercial sleeping space. But since they will allow moving train staff out of Viewliner sleeping space, in the net they will open up some 4 to 8 roomettes per train depending on the train.
 
Anyone know anything about the notion that Amtrak might be considering using the Heritage 10-6 sleepers previously modified into baggage/dorm cars which they still have in active service again? It is a notion that I recently saw floated by someone (and largely shot down) in a post on the wall of Amtrak's facebook page. In view of rising ridership and new sleepers still being a ways out, I can see how this could potentially free up at least some revenue space.
Amtrak is thinking of using them (upto 11 of them) as Dorm cars pending the arrival of the Viewliner Bag-Dorms. This was publicly stated by an Amtrak representative from Amtrak HQ at the ESPA/NARP New York Region meeting in Schenectady last Saturday, so what someone says on Facebook is probably of less relevance. Note though that they will not be used for providing any commercial sleeping space. But since they will allow moving train staff out of Viewliner sleeping space, in the net they will open up some 4 to 8 roomettes per train depending on the train.
That makes sense then, and I would assume that whoever posted it on facebook had probably heard about what that rep said, as that has been since Saturday that it was posted on there. Nice to know it originally came from the horse's mouth, so to speak, though. And yeah, that is what I meant, using the old baggage/dorms for the crew would free up revenue space in the Viewliners. IMO the Cardinal should be the first train to get one, as it has seen a large increase in ridership and only has the one Viewliner, which is always sold out at high bucket.
 
Most of these "Stainless Steel Sleeper Cars" are probably either a Budd Rail or Pullman car. But I'm not 100% sure.
The only stainless steel car that Pullman built was the Superliner. Pullman used Carbon Steel.

Bill is right on the money as far as "heritage" is concerned. I think VIA has completely retired all their ex-CN "Blue Fleet" which was mostly CCF (Canadian sister of ACF) CorTen steel cars, and VIA's sleeper fleet, aside from the Renaissance cars, is all Budd, from the huge 1955 CP "Canadian" order.
The CCF cars were carbon steel. CorTen is a horrible material, and used only on a few train cars. CorTen makes a tiny amount of sense on objects in calm areas that will never move. On a train, it is the stupidest possible material- Trabant's Duraplast makes more sense. CorTen, briefly, is a steel designed to seal itself via its own oxidation- that is, the outer layer of the material rusts, which protects the rest of the metal. On a train, however, dust and other particles will blast off the oxidation, like a sandblaster, but slower.

As a result, a rapid land transportation device built out of CorTen will slowly- by design!- turn itself into a bunch of swiss cheese. The IC used it on some inter-urban cars. The drawbacks of CorTen Steel are shown clearly in two places- on those inter-urbans, and on the U.S. Steel building in Pittsburgh, its whole concrete foundations stained red with the buildings intentional rust.
 
Well, by that logic, all the CorTen cars must be gone!

Is there any difference in size of old roomette compared to today's roomettes? And did the single bed face in the same direction as the train, or was it sideways like Amtrak's bedroom?

Also, I found this page about Pullman's sleeper cars. Good read.

http://www.railswest.com/pullman.html
 
That is correct, old roomettes only slept one.
But the remarkable thing is that when the duplex (or slumbercoach) design came about, a remarkable 40 single roomettes were put into one sleeper car. Due to the high number of sleepers the prices were very affordble and each roomette had a sink and a toilet. I believe those cars also had two double bedrooms. I understand that this design was dropped as Amtrak didn't want steps in the hall that led to the upper level roomettes.

I have explored quite a few "Heritage" sleepers of all different types but only in museums. Some of the heritge sleepers have bedrooms that look like todays Amtrak bedroom. The double roomette may be an Amtrak invention. The Pullman open section was discontinued many years ago.
 
That is correct, old roomettes only slept one.
But the remarkable thing is that when the duplex (or slumbercoach) design came about, a remarkable 40 single roomettes were put into one sleeper car. Due to the high number of sleepers the prices were very affordble and each roomette had a sink and a toilet. I believe those cars also had two double bedrooms. I understand that this design was dropped as Amtrak didn't want steps in the hall that led to the upper level roomettes.

I have explored quite a few "Heritage" sleepers of all different types but only in museums. Some of the heritge sleepers have bedrooms that look like todays Amtrak bedroom. The double roomette may be an Amtrak invention. The Pullman open section was discontinued many years ago.
Duplex roomettes and slumbercoaches were not the same thing.

Slumbercoach rooms were called single rooms or double rooms, they were never called roomettes.

They had 24 single rooms and eight double rooms. That is where one could get the idea 40 rooms. That is a misunderstanding.

Very Very few slumbercoaches were ever built The majority of trains never had them. For that matter there were very few duplex roomettes.

Open sections have not been gone as long as one might think. Even the orders for the two Canadian railroads in 1955 had some sections in fully streamlined new lightweight equipment. Some were built as recently as that in the U.S. also.

It IS correct to say that many railroads did drop them, or use them only on their secondary trains. One motivation for keeping a few sections around in the streamlined era would be if a train we served a lot of military or government posts, it was cheaper to send their folks off in a section.

It is indeed correct to say that the roomette in large part did replace the section. It is just not correct to say that sections went out as much or as quickly as, say, steam engines.

If you learn anything about the old railroads it is this: there were many railroads operating many trains and many things changed and changed. And called anything anything. There was not a sense of a national uniformity that there is today under Amtrak.
 
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Most of these "Stainless Steel Sleeper Cars" are probably either a Budd Rail or Pullman car. But I'm not 100% sure.
The only stainless steel car that Pullman built was the Superliner. Pullman used Carbon Steel.

Bill is right on the money as far as "heritage" is concerned. I think VIA has completely retired all their ex-CN "Blue Fleet" which was mostly CCF (Canadian sister of ACF) CorTen steel cars, and VIA's sleeper fleet, aside from the Renaissance cars, is all Budd, from the huge 1955 CP "Canadian" order.
The CCF cars were carbon steel. CorTen is a horrible material, and used only on a few train cars. CorTen makes a tiny amount of sense on objects in calm areas that will never move. On a train, it is the stupidest possible material- Trabant's Duraplast makes more sense. CorTen, briefly, is a steel designed to seal itself via its own oxidation- that is, the outer layer of the material rusts, which protects the rest of the metal. On a train, however, dust and other particles will blast off the oxidation, like a sandblaster, but slower.

As a result, a rapid land transportation device built out of CorTen will slowly- by design!- turn itself into a bunch of swiss cheese. The IC used it on some inter-urban cars. The drawbacks of CorTen Steel are shown clearly in two places- on those inter-urbans, and on the U.S. Steel building in Pittsburgh, its whole concrete foundations stained red with the buildings intentional rust.
CorTen is actually a trade-mark structural steel from USS. The generic name is "weathering steel." Weathering steel is a carbon steel alloy formulation that results in a very hard oxide layer that effectively seals the steel and prevents continued corrosion. Over the first year or two of exposure, the steel corrodes until the oxide matures. Once the oxide is complete and hardened, the steel is sealed from the atmosphere and the corrosion stops. In its place, it is a great product. Used correctly, it provides for a structure that is almost maintenance free. I specified it all the time with great results.

The key phrase is "used correctly." Any portion of a weathering steel structure that says moist most or all of the time, that traps water, or wicks water into a tightly closed joint will cause problems. The steel will corrode, but the moist corrosion will not harden. It will just keep on corroding until there is no steel left. In a tight joint, the corrosion will expand sometimes to the point that the joint fails (a process called "pack-out"). A rail car has nothing but pockets and joints that trap moisture. It is about as stupid a use of weathering steel as I can imagine.

The USS building in Pittsburgh is an interesting situation. USS wanted to promote their CorTen product and thought that showing its potential architectural application as a cladding for a high-rise building would be a great showpiece for USS and CorTen. My bet is that it was a marketing decision and that the engineers at USS cringed at the thought of that application for CorTen. The rest, as they say, is history.
 
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Most of these "Stainless Steel Sleeper Cars" are probably either a Budd Rail or Pullman car. But I'm not 100% sure.
The only stainless steel car that Pullman built was the Superliner. Pullman used Carbon Steel.

Bill is right on the money as far as "heritage" is concerned. I think VIA has completely retired all their ex-CN "Blue Fleet" which was mostly CCF (Canadian sister of ACF) CorTen steel cars, and VIA's sleeper fleet, aside from the Renaissance cars, is all Budd, from the huge 1955 CP "Canadian" order.
The CCF cars were carbon steel. CorTen is a horrible material, and used only on a few train cars. CorTen makes a tiny amount of sense on objects in calm areas that will never move. On a train, it is the stupidest possible material- Trabant's Duraplast makes more sense. CorTen, briefly, is a steel designed to seal itself via its own oxidation- that is, the outer layer of the material rusts, which protects the rest of the metal. On a train, however, dust and other particles will blast off the oxidation, like a sandblaster, but slower.

As a result, a rapid land transportation device built out of CorTen will slowly- by design!- turn itself into a bunch of swiss cheese. The IC used it on some inter-urban cars. The drawbacks of CorTen Steel are shown clearly in two places- on those inter-urbans, and on the U.S. Steel building in Pittsburgh, its whole concrete foundations stained red with the buildings intentional rust.
CorTen is actually a trade-mark structural steel from USS. The generic name is "weathering steel." Weathering steel is a carbon steel alloy formulation that results in a very hard oxide layer that effectively seals the steel and prevents continued corrosion. Over the first year or two of exposure, the steel corrodes until the oxide matures. Once the oxide is complete and hardened, the steel is sealed from the atmosphere and the corrosion stops. In its place, it is a great product. Used correctly, it provides for a structure that is almost maintenance free. I specified it all the time with great results.

The key phrase is "used correctly." Any portion of a weathering steel structure that says moist most or all of the time, that traps water, or wicks water into a tightly closed joint will cause problems. The steel will corrode, but the moist corrosion will not harden. It will just keep on corroding until there is no steel left. In a tight joint, the corrosion will expand sometimes to the point that the joint fails (a process called "pack-out"). A rail car has nothing but pockets and joints that trap moisture. It is about as stupid a use of weathering steel as I can imagine.

The USS building in Pittsburgh is an interesting situation. USS wanted to promote their CorTen product and thought that showing its potential architectural application as a cladding for a high-rise building would be a great showpiece for USS and CorTen. My bet is that it was a marketing decision and that the engineers at USS cringed at the thought of that application for CorTen. The rest, as they say, is history.
Aloha

The use of this steel in the Honolulu Stadium was also a disaster. Guess no one considered the 60% humidity. Ongoing the stadium is being replaced a section at a time, and being painted. Also the floating movable sections also failed due to pad settling and hinge rusting.
 
That is correct, old roomettes only slept one.
But the remarkable thing is that when the duplex (or slumbercoach) design came about, a remarkable 40 single roomettes were put into one sleeper car. Due to the high number of sleepers the prices were very affordble and each roomette had a sink and a toilet. I believe those cars also had two double bedrooms. I understand that this design was dropped as Amtrak didn't want steps in the hall that led to the upper level roomettes.

I have explored quite a few "Heritage" sleepers of all different types but only in museums. Some of the heritge sleepers have bedrooms that look like todays Amtrak bedroom. The double roomette may be an Amtrak invention. The Pullman open section was discontinued many years ago.

To elaborate on post 14 above (be sure you read it), the largest all roomette cars I ever heard of were 18, 21 and 22 roomettes. This give you some idea how much smaller slumbercoach rooms were.

Also be sure to google slumbercoach and also duplex roomette.
 
That is correct, old roomettes only slept one.
But the remarkable thing is that when the duplex (or slumbercoach) design came about, a remarkable 40 single roomettes were put into one sleeper car. Due to the high number of sleepers the prices were very affordble and each roomette had a sink and a toilet. I believe those cars also had two double bedrooms. I understand that this design was dropped as Amtrak didn't want steps in the hall that led to the upper level roomettes.

I have explored quite a few "Heritage" sleepers of all different types but only in museums. Some of the heritge sleepers have bedrooms that look like todays Amtrak bedroom. The double roomette may be an Amtrak invention. The Pullman open section was discontinued many years ago.
As Bill mentioned, the Slumbercoaches has 24 roommettes and 8 Double Bedrooms with a capacity of 40. 6 section, 6 Roomette, 4DBR sleepers lasted until Amtrak started. The SCL- L&N Jacksonville - New Orleans tri weekly Gulf Wind carried one and the UP Butte Special from Butte to Salt Lake City carried one.
 
That is correct, old roomettes only slept one.
But the remarkable thing is that when the duplex (or slumbercoach) design came about, a remarkable 40 single roomettes were put into one sleeper car. Due to the high number of sleepers the prices were very affordble and each roomette had a sink and a toilet. I believe those cars also had two double bedrooms. I understand that this design was dropped as Amtrak didn't want steps in the hall that led to the upper level roomettes.

I have explored quite a few "Heritage" sleepers of all different types but only in museums. Some of the heritge sleepers have bedrooms that look like todays Amtrak bedroom. The double roomette may be an Amtrak invention. The Pullman open section was discontinued many years ago.
As Bill mentioned, the Slumbercoaches has 24 roommettes and 8 Double Bedrooms with a capacity of 40. 6 section, 6 Roomette, 4DBR sleepers lasted until Amtrak started. The SCL- L&N Jacksonville - New Orleans tri weekly Gulf Wind carried one and the UP Butte Special from Butte to Salt Lake City carried one.
Indeed, 29 of those cars, named after pine trees, were built for the Nashville Chattanooga and St.Louis RR, the Louisville and Nashville RR and the Chicago and Eastern Illinois RR in 1953.

And there were a few more such as that mentioned on the UP.

These were some of the few lightweight streamlined cars which had sections, as I alluded to in earlier posts.
 
That is correct, old roomettes only slept one.
But the remarkable thing is that when the duplex (or slumbercoach) design came about, a remarkable 40 single roomettes were put into one sleeper car. Due to the high number of sleepers the prices were very affordble and each roomette had a sink and a toilet. I believe those cars also had two double bedrooms. I understand that this design was dropped as Amtrak didn't want steps in the hall that led to the upper level roomettes.

I have explored quite a few "Heritage" sleepers of all different types but only in museums. Some of the heritge sleepers have bedrooms that look like todays Amtrak bedroom. The double roomette may be an Amtrak invention. The Pullman open section was discontinued many years ago.
As Bill mentioned, the Slumbercoaches has 24 roommettes and 8 Double Bedrooms with a capacity of 40. 6 section, 6 Roomette, 4DBR sleepers lasted until Amtrak started. The SCL- L&N Jacksonville - New Orleans tri weekly Gulf Wind carried one and the UP Butte Special from Butte to Salt Lake City carried one.
Indeed, 29 of those cars, named after pine trees, were built for the Nashville Chattanooga and St.Louis RR, the Louisville and Nashville RR and the Chicago and Eastern Illinois RR in 1953.

And there were a few more such as that mentioned on the UP.

These were some of the few lightweight streamlined cars which had sections, as I alluded to in earlier posts.
The California Zephyr had some all section (16?) lightweight, streamlined Budd sleepers built. They were not popular as most Pullman patrons by then were demanding private room accomodations. They were converted to flattop coaches in the early 1960s (1964?). Up until they were converted, the CZ had no flattop coaches, all the coaches were dome coaches. Two examples of those were the Silver Pine and Silver Aspen, which were in the D&RGW contribution to the pool, and ran on the RGZ after the CZ discontinuation.
 
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IIRC, Amtrak converted some 10 and 6's to accomodate ADA patrons by pulling the wall out between two roomettes at the end of the car; this was shortly before the Viewliners showed up. Does anyone remember this or am I in a fog bank again? :eek:hboy:
 
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That is correct, old roomettes only slept one.
But the remarkable thing is that when the duplex (or slumbercoach) design came about, a remarkable 40 single roomettes were put into one sleeper car. Due to the high number of sleepers the prices were very affordble and each roomette had a sink and a toilet. I believe those cars also had two double bedrooms. I understand that this design was dropped as Amtrak didn't want steps in the hall that led to the upper level roomettes.

I have explored quite a few "Heritage" sleepers of all different types but only in museums. Some of the heritge sleepers have bedrooms that look like todays Amtrak bedroom. The double roomette may be an Amtrak invention. The Pullman open section was discontinued many years ago.
As Bill mentioned, the Slumbercoaches has 24 roommettes and 8 Double Bedrooms with a capacity of 40. 6 section, 6 Roomette, 4DBR sleepers lasted until Amtrak started. The SCL- L&N Jacksonville - New Orleans tri weekly Gulf Wind carried one and the UP Butte Special from Butte to Salt Lake City carried one.

I remember enjoying slumbercoach accommodations on the California Zephyr (Amtrak) between Denver and Chicago, on the Broadway Limited (Amtrak), and the Lake Shore Limited. If memory serves me correctly, the extra fare for a slumbercoach in the 70s was only around $8 to $9 more than coach from Chicago to New York. So it was a great buy and although the rooms were small and the beds narrow, because the beds were so narrow, you could use the toilet without putting up the bed..

I think that slumbercoaches ran on Amtrak's Crescent and Montrealer for a time (and I think I may even have been on a Montrealer slumbercoach), but I'm not sure about that.

I also recall that there were a handful of 16/10 slumbercoaches (16 singles, 10 doubles) in addition to the more "common" 24/8 slumbercoaches. The quirky 16/10 cars I think were rebuilt NYC cars with an odd look to them and if you had one of the middle 2 or 4 rooms, they were larger than the other ones.
 
That is correct, old roomettes only slept one.
But the remarkable thing is that when the duplex (or slumbercoach) design came about, a remarkable 40 single roomettes were put into one sleeper car. Due to the high number of sleepers the prices were very affordble and each roomette had a sink and a toilet. I believe those cars also had two double bedrooms. I understand that this design was dropped as Amtrak didn't want steps in the hall that led to the upper level roomettes.

I have explored quite a few "Heritage" sleepers of all different types but only in museums. Some of the heritge sleepers have bedrooms that look like todays Amtrak bedroom. The double roomette may be an Amtrak invention. The Pullman open section was discontinued many years ago.
Functionally, the Superliner roomette is not much more than the old "section" (upper and lower berths) with steel and glass doors instead of curtains. Via still has sections on the Canadian and the few other trains using Budd sleepers.

IIRC, Avalon Railcar is rebuilding many of Via's Budd sleepers to eliminate the berths to provide more private accomodation land cruise customers expect.

The Viewliner roomette has the amenities of the old roomette with an upper bunk added so to that extent, it is a newer development.

Gord
 
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