Sunset Limited east of New Orleans

The Sunset Limited east of New Orleans has been suspended for over 5 years! The Amtrak annual report says the current Sunset Limited has the lowest number of passengers per year among the long distance trains. I think the routing is a big problem. When will the line east of New Orleans be restored?

Right or wrong, whenever the states in question (FL, AL, MS) kick in some money, or Congress mandates "Thou shalt restore service".

hboy: Somewhere the corpse of a horse is feeling a few more thuds against its side.

Seriously though, everyone wants the Sunset East back, I think even Amtrak, they just want the states involved to pay for the restart costs and maybe a bit of the operating costs. So far I have not heard anything from those states about putting up the money.

The SL also has the worst return ratio of any line, I know many would argue that has a lot to do with the fact it's tri-weekly, but the fact remains it's hard to argue restarting such a line without better revenue projections and backup funding to boot.

If you really support the Sunset East starting up again, please contact your representatives and tell them how important it is for your area.

Ryan said:

Right or wrong, whenever the states in question (FL, AL, MS) kick in some money, or Congress mandates "Thou shalt restore service".

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I had a visit to Lake City, FL earlier this year. The tiny Amtrak depot was in completely abandoned condition, as well as the parking lots around. To restore the line, large sums of money might be needed.

AC4400 said:

Ryan said:

Right or wrong, whenever the states in question (FL, AL, MS) kick in some money, or Congress mandates "Thou shalt restore service".

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I had a visit to Lake City, FL earlier this year. The tiny Amtrak depot was in completely abandoned condition, as well as the parking lots around. To restore the line, large sums of money might be needed.

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I'm assuming there would also be a cost to the host railroad for using their tracks.

Gratt said:

hboy: Somewhere the corpse of a horse is feeling a few more thuds against its side.

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^^hahaha :giggle:

To OP, don't hold your breath, though. Amtrak's more concerned with getting the rest of the train daily (which, thanks to UP, isn't going all that well itself), and they don't have enough money or equpment to do both daily service and east of New Orleans service. Hell, they don't even have enough money to do daily service over part of the route.

Personally, I think the better option is a day train from Florida to New Orleans. Connections wouldn't be good at New Orleans, but I think it'd be worth it, since you get more on-line traffic (the way the Limited would be scheduled, it's pass through a lot of the Eastern section overnight.) It'd also be a better candidate for state funding, assuming any of the states along the line get smart and start thinking about that, since it'd be seperate of a national system train, which states aren't expected to fund.

The third, and maybe the most likely option, is extending the City of New Orleans eastwards from New Orleans to Florida--this would kill two birds with one stone by both restoring service along the old Sunset route, and getting a direct(ish) Chicago-Florida train, one of the more gaping holes in the system.

Pastor Dave said:

AC4400 said:

Ryan said:

Right or wrong, whenever the states in question (FL, AL, MS) kick in some money, or Congress mandates "Thou shalt restore service".

Click to expand...

I had a visit to Lake City, FL earlier this year. The tiny Amtrak depot was in completely abandoned condition, as well as the parking lots around. To restore the line, large sums of money might be needed.

Click to expand...

I'm assuming there would also be a cost to the host railroad for using their tracks.

Click to expand...

That's a very small amount, since that part of the run is still grandfathered into the original agreement that setup Amtrak. So CSX cannot demand huge sums of money like UP is trying to do right now because Amtrak want's daily service instead of the grandfathered in tri-weekly service. Only if they try to run daily, east of NOL, would things change.

Well one of two things will most likely happen for sure. Which one its hard to say.

1. A plan will be developed to fix and restore some form of service along that line. (When and how that remains to be seen.)

2. The once was route line will finally be removed from the Amtrak timetable magazine until further notice.

My guess is number 1. Eventually some sort of solution will have to be developed. Something like that can't sit on idle indefinitely.

AlanB said:

Pastor Dave said:

AC4400 said:

Ryan said:

Right or wrong, whenever the states in question (FL, AL, MS) kick in some money, or Congress mandates "Thou shalt restore service".

Click to expand...

I had a visit to Lake City, FL earlier this year. The tiny Amtrak depot was in completely abandoned condition, as well as the parking lots around. To restore the line, large sums of money might be needed.

Click to expand...

I'm assuming there would also be a cost to the host railroad for using their tracks.

Click to expand...

That's a very small amount, since that part of the run is still grandfathered into the original agreement that setup Amtrak. So CSX cannot demand huge sums of money like UP is trying to do right now because Amtrak want's daily service instead of the grandfathered in tri-weekly service. Only if they try to run daily, east of NOL, would things change.

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Can you tell me more about the "grandfathered" agreement? I've always thought that host railroads could charge what they wanted. At one point I heard that CSX was demanding in the hundres of millions of dollars to reactivate the route.

The Sunset Limited will only offer the level of service that the citizens along its route demand from their government. Right now we're not demanding any more service so we're not getting any more. Discussing the particulars of the truncated route on here is all well and good, but it won't actually change anything. Call your Senators and Congressmen and tell them how disappointed you are. Store their phone numbers and their addresses in your contact list and remind them about your concerns every single time a transportation related bill is on the way. Get other folks enlisted in your cause by writing an op-ed for your local paper or speaking at your local university. Show up at your local city council meetings and make your concerns known. Network with the people you meet and help promote and elect candidates who will share your pro-rail values. The answer for restoring and improving service is right in front of you, all you have to do is pick up a pen and a phone and put in the effort to make it happen.

Pastor Dave said:

AlanB said:

Pastor Dave said:

AC4400 said:

Ryan said:

Right or wrong, whenever the states in question (FL, AL, MS) kick in some money, or Congress mandates "Thou shalt restore service".

Click to expand...

I had a visit to Lake City, FL earlier this year. The tiny Amtrak depot was in completely abandoned condition, as well as the parking lots around. To restore the line, large sums of money might be needed.

Click to expand...

I'm assuming there would also be a cost to the host railroad for using their tracks.

Click to expand...

That's a very small amount, since that part of the run is still grandfathered into the original agreement that setup Amtrak. So CSX cannot demand huge sums of money like UP is trying to do right now because Amtrak want's daily service instead of the grandfathered in tri-weekly service. Only if they try to run daily, east of NOL, would things change.

Click to expand...

Can you tell me more about the "grandfathered" agreement? I've always thought that host railroads could charge what they wanted. At one point I heard that CSX was demanding in the hundres of millions of dollars to reactivate the route.

Click to expand...

When Amtrak was created, they were given the right to continue existing trains on their existing routes for cheap (I forget the exact details). For new routes (or increased frequencies), the RR's can negotiate whatever price they can (much more expensive).

CSX doesn't have anything to do with the current situation. They're running trains on that route today. It all falls on Amtrak and their unwillingness/inability (that differs, depending on who you talk to) to return to running the route.

AC4400 said:

The Sunset Limited east of New Orleans has been suspended for over 5 years! The Amtrak annual report says the current Sunset Limited has the lowest number of passengers per year among the long distance trains. I think the routing is a big problem. When will the line east of New Orleans be restored?

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Here we go again: One of our members, Long Train Running, who is a teenaged College Student might see a train on this route in his lifetime! The rest of us can post rumours, (internet posts that appeared on the various sites, OBS heard discussing this fantasy etc. forever), but just aint gonna happen unless Congress and the various State politicos get together and mandate it! :help: The chances of this happening are less than winning the Lottery!

Dont try to book any trips on this route in the next millenium for sure!

Apparently the freight railroads can demand any fee they can think up, including fees that have zero chance of actually being payable by Amtrak or would require the discontinuation of multiple other routes and the liquidation of all assets associated with those routes in order to cover a slight increase in service for one single route. Amtrak can't play hardball with new service as they risk annoying the very corporations who still own most of the infrastructure.

jimhudson said:

One of our members, Long Train Running, who is a teenaged College Student might see a train on this route in his lifetime!

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Or he might live to see the cessation and dismantling of all passenger rail in America.

daxomni said:

Apparently the freight railroads can demand any fee they can think up, including fees have zero chance of actually being payable by Amtrak or would require the discontinuation of multiple other routes and the liquidation of all assets associated with those routes in order to cover a slight increase in service for one single route. Amtrak can't play hardball with new service as they risk annoying the very corporations who still own most of the infrastructure.

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What exactly does this have to do with the Sunset East?

Ryan said:

What exactly does this have to do with the Sunset East?

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I has to do with the Sunset Limited, which is in service today and may even be in service tomorrow. The "Sunset East" is more of a hypothetical construct than an actual train, so I don't see what your problem is. Of the initiatives that Amtrak has actually backed, daily operation of the Sunset Limited is one of them. Operation east of New Orleans is not. That's just the reality of the situation. So if service east of NOLA ever resumes in the future (unlikely) it would presumably happen after daily service west of New Orleans had already been paid for and could then require negotiating for new service in the form of a daily schedule over the tracks east of New Orleans in order to keep the route in sync. Although that would assume we'll see increased funding for passenger rail from deep-south states like Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia. And I really don't think we'll ever see that happen in our lifetimes.

daxomni said:

The Sunset Limited will only offer the level of service that the citizens along its route demand from their government. Right now we're not demanding any more service so we're not getting any more. Discussing the particulars of the truncated route on here is all well and good, but it won't actually change anything. Call your Senators and Congressmen and tell them how disappointed you are. Store their phone numbers and their addresses in your contact list and remind them about your concerns every single time a transportation related bill is on the way. Get other folks enlisted in your cause by writing an op-ed for your local paper or speaking at your local university. Show up at your local city council meetings and make your concerns known. Network with the people you meet and help promote and elect candidates who will share your pro-rail values. The answer for restoring and improving service is right in front of you, all you have to do is pick up a pen and a phone and put in the effort to make it happen.

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Good point!

In general, Amtrak and host railroads negotiate the costs involved to start passenger service. If a negotiated price cannot be agreed upon, the issue goes to the Surface Transportation Board for resolution.

In the case of the Sunset Limited between New Orleans and Jacksonville, CSX upgraded the line for the start of service in 1993. The CSX upgrades involved primarily signaling and grade crossing improvements. Since the service east of New Orleans is "suspended", Amtrak retains the right to operate over the route under the prior agreement. If Amtrak throws in the towel and cancels the service, the prior agreement with CSX ends and any new service would require a new operating agreements. That could require additional costs for capacity improvements.

When I see Dax do as he says instead of just complaining about how people do nothing but complain I will boil my hat and eat it.

That aside the ideas of op-Ed pieces and calling your representative is pointless. They don't care, they have bigger things on their plate right now, at least in their opinion.

Anybody who has been living in the last five years knows that the political conversation is driven by people who are mad and vocal, not a small collection of rail fans, but thousands of people willing to go to rallies and buy books and stage protests. The people who have the power to influence politicians have money or a voice, or both. It is driven by money in the end.

Amtrak makes no money. Amtrak is not a popular issue. Get off your high horse and settle for mediocrity it is better than nothing.

The people of Wisconsin and Ohio are finding this out the hard way.

Change is slow, always has been, always will be.

ALC, the only reason I suggest these things is because I've done them all myself at one time or another. I may be new to promoting passenger rail but I'm learning what I can about the specific impediments and complications that are preventing the sort of network I believe our country is still capable of building. So far as I can tell the primary issues are related to political considerations and since none of us are obscenely wealthy that means we need lots of citizen involvement to tip the scales in our favor. This specific route segment isn't my primary issue at the moment but if the folks who live along it want me to join them in working toward resumption of service I would be more than happy to put some of my own time toward that end. I would never doubt that you also practice exactly what you preach. Which I suppose is to sit on your breeches and rail against those who refuse to sit on theirs. It's your own choice to accept or even promote mediocrity from the richest and most powerful country the world has ever known, but I can't fathom why anyone ever would.

PRR 60 said:

In the case of the Sunset Limited between New Orleans and Jacksonville, CSX upgraded the line for the start of service in 1993. The CSX upgrades involved primarily signaling and grade crossing improvements. Since the service east of New Orleans is "suspended", Amtrak retains the right to operate over the route under the prior agreement. If Amtrak throws in the towel and cancels the service, the prior agreement with CSX ends and any new service would require a new operating agreements. That could require additional costs for capacity improvements.

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I don't know what signaling improvements were made. The signal system with the Sunset East was the same as it was when the pre-Amtrak Gulf Wind (which ran right up to A-day) was running: CTC between New Orleans and Flomaton AL (as part of the ex L&N main line from Cincinatti to New Orleans, unsignaled between there and Tallahassee, and CTC the rest of the way to Jacksonville. I think the form of operation between Flomaton and Tallah. changed from Timetable and Train Orders to Manual Block, and there were a few CTC "Islands" at passing sidings for the sake of having powered switches, but that last was more for the benfit of the increased freight traffic on the line. There was some improvement in speed limits. The pre-Amtrak L&N had speed limits of 70 mph NO - Flom. and 55 mph Flom. to Chattahoochie. I do not know what the speed limit was on the ex-SAL portion east of Tallahassee. Wtih the start of the Sunset East, the speed limts were 79 mph on the signaled portions and 59 mph on the unsignaled portions.

I would guess that the Sunset Limited has the most changes in milepost systems of any train Amtrak operates. For the Sunset East, starting in Orland: Mileposts decreasing Orlando th Jacksonville, base on the ACL numbering. Mileposts increasing from Jacksonville to Chattahochee, based on the SAL systems. Mileposts decreasing from Chattahoochee to Flomaton, based on the L&N system, that is zero at Louisville KY. Mileposts increasing from Flomaton to junction with the New Orleans Public Belt in New Orleans, base on the same L&N zero. Have no idea how NOPB is mileposted. So: We have four reversals of milepost directions with three different zero points all on a route now owned by one company (CSX).

Going on west: Again skipping the NOPB: Increasing from New Orleans to Houston West Belt Jct., zero at NO, skipping the use of KCS milepost on teh Neches River bridge and approach at Beaumont and the use of the ex-MoPac line for one of the Baumont-Houston lines. Increasing from Houston to El Paso, zero at Houston. Decreasing from El Paso to New Orleans, zero at San Francisco, skipping who knows what scramble in mileposts and directions of same in Los Angeles amd its approaches.

It was said in this post that Amtrak lacked the resources and the equipment to restore the Sunset Limited service East of New Orleans to Florida.

First off lets look at equipment. The Eastern route would not require any new equipment as its just a continuance of the existing train eastward. You might need a crew change but the same train just keeps rolling.

The funding necessary would be only for reopening the railroad stations, some that are in good shape and others that need some repair. Heck you don't even need a station to start out. All you would need is a loading platform and some stations in Florida are already being used by other routes. Compared to what it would cost to start a totally new service, the cost to restore service would be minimal .

IMO, the real reason that Amtrak hasn't restored Sunset Limited service eastbound is revenue. The train isn't a money maker but its a catch 22. The queston is that if service is restored to Florida do you extend the route to increase revenue or do you wait until revenue increases before you restore the route?

The Sunset Limited was the only coast to coast route that Amtrak had so they decide to cut the route 33%, run only three days a week and expect it to be successful. I have no idea what Amtrak is thinking.

dlagrua said:

I have no idea what Amtrak is thinking.

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LOL, I completely agree with this statement.

dlagrua said:

It was said in this post that Amtrak lacked the resources and the equipment to restore the Sunset Limited service East of New Orleans to Florida.

First off lets look at equipment. The Eastern route would not require any new equipment as its just a continuance of the existing train eastward. You might need a crew change but the same train just keeps rolling.

The funding necessary would be only for reopening the railroad stations, some that are in good shape and others that need some repair. Heck you don't even need a station to start out. All you would need is a loading platform and some stations in Florida are already being used by other routes. Compared to what it would cost to start a totally new service, the cost to restore service would be minimal .

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These are just the "dog ate my homework" excuses that Amtrak is using to shadow the real reason.

dlagrua said:

IMO, the real reason that Amtrak hasn't restored Sunset Limited service eastbound is revenue. The train isn't a money maker but its a catch 22. The queston is that if service is restored to Florida do you extend the route to increase revenue or do you wait until revenue increases before you restore the route?

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The real reason is that Amtrak wants to force the state's hands into funding the train. So far the states haven't blinked and I don't think that they ever will. And they shouldn't, this is part of the National network and therefore is Amtrak's responsibility.

dlagrua said:

The Sunset Limited was the only coast to coast route that Amtrak had so they decide to cut the route 33%, run only three days a week and expect it to be successful. I have no idea what Amtrak is thinking.

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Just to be clear, it only ever ran 3 days a week.

If rich is twelve trillion in invisible debt, then sure, were a rich country. It's actually kind of funny, restoring SL would be a drop in the bucket of the debt, but our representatives argue about the drop that is extension of unemployment benefits, or a settlement for discrimination against farmers, then the SL is nothing to them.

And if you read the Performance Improvement Initiative for the Capitol Limited (titled Pennsylvanian on here) they are stealing the Sunset's equipment to enhance the Capitol. So not only is the Sunset never going back to Florida, the New Orleans to San Antonio leg is destined to become coach only. But hey, we get daily service. West of San Antonio the train will only be seven cars, one sleeper, one transition dorm, two coaches and a coach baggage,diner/lounge and lounge. No baggage car. All the full diners, four sleepers and all the baggage cars go to the Capitol. Texas is the second largest state by population....24 million people. If amtrak doesn't want to provide service down here and across the south and southwest then just give us back our money and we will provide our own train service. Lets see, 24 million out of 281 million equals something like 8.5% of Amtrak's 2 billion budget equals 170 million a year. Population across from Florida to California is something like 126 million or 45% equals 896 million. We can probably implement some pretty good rail service for that. Let the NEC founder on it's own.