The AEM7 replacement

Ok, Amtrak can rehab the AEM7s for so long, what are the "real" plans for the NEC motive power needs for the future? We all know in Amtrak's wants to order more Acelas. There was talk of the new generation Acelas bumping the current Acelas to Regional, do not know if thats still the plan.

Will more HHPs be ordered or have Bombardier shredded the plans for the early problem prone beast?

Or is a fresh design being looked at? What about those new electric EMDs one of the New York /NJ commuter agencies received?

frequentflyer said:

Ok, Amtrak can rehab the AEM7s for so long, what are the "real" plans for the NEC motive power needs for the future? We all know in Amtrak's wants to order more Acelas. There was talk of the new generation Acelas bumping the current Acelas to Regional, do not know if thats still the plan.
Will more HHPs be ordered or have Bombardier shredded the plans for the early problem prone beast?

Or is a fresh design being looked at? What about those new electric EMDs one of the New York /NJ commuter agencies received?

Click to expand...

Moreover, what will we call them? The AEM7s are "toasters". Will they get replaced with "toaster ovens"? :lol: "Waffle irons"? :unsure: "Stand mixers"?

They've been looking at the ALP46s, but thats mainly because NJT plans on getting more lolos from there so it would be easier to order.

cpamtfan said:

They've been looking at the ALP46s, but thats mainly because NJT plans on getting more lolos from there so it would be easier to order.

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NJT is acquiring ALP-46As which internally are very different beasts from the ALP-46s, but externally look very similar.

Amtrak has new electric engines on its wish list for the next couple of years, but beyond that I am not aware of any specific decisions about what they may or may not get. I guess appropriation of money for the same by Congress is the gating factor at present.

Why wouldn't Amtrak stick to what it knows, order more HHPs? Acela, and HHPs, retire the AEM7s, and simplify the mx and parts logistics.

Between the fact that the HHP's have had their problems, coupled with the fact that they'd have to pay to set up the assembly line again, they'd probably look at something else instead. Like the NJT ALP's, which are currently in production and therefore could be gotten more cheaply than having Bombardier setup the HHP line again.

Not to mention that the HHP is now 10+ year old technology.

I thought there is a RFP for new electric Locos out on the street? Or Did I dream that?

According to a friend in the purchasing department of Amtrak. Amtrak has ruled out more HHP-8's due to the problems that have come up in the past 10 years.

Yes there is a RFP out for them. I will try to get some info for you guys and gals.

Stephen

AMTRAK RFP - found on APTA web site:




INTRODUCTION:

Amtrak intends to issue a competitive Request for Proposal for a qualified vendor to provide the design, manufacture and delivery of twenty (20) Electric Locomotives with AC Propulsion (IGBT) technology, with an option for Amtrak to purchase up to an additional forty (40) electric locomotives. The locomotives will operate at revenue service speeds of 125 MPH on Amtraks Northeast Corridor track between Boston and Washington, DC, as well as between Philadelphia and Harrisburg, using the existing traction power system and track infrastructure. (The maximum design speed is 135 MPH). The locomotives will be used as a general purpose passenger locomotive suitable for high speed, commuter, (including push-pull), and heavy long distance trains. The Electric Locomotives will provide sufficient horsepower to provide continuous 125 mph operation when used in a train consist of one (1) locomotive and eighteen (18) cars.

The anticipated dates for procurement and award of Request for Proposal #X-063-9168-001 are as follows:

TASKS: ANTICIPATED DATES:

Amtrak issues RFP Week of June 22, 2009

Mandatory Pre-Proposal Meeting July 20, 2009; 9:00 a.m., Amtrak, Philadelphia, PA

Due Date for submission of written proposals October 20, 2009

Oral Presentation from Short-Listed Companies Week of November 16, 2009

Contract Award Week of March 29, 2010

Notice to Proceed Week of May 3, 2010

Amtrak, at its sole discretion and without discussion, will determine which vendors are to be added to its bid list. ONLY vendors that can meet the minimum qualifications listed below should E-MAIL or MAIL a request for the Request for Proposal Package on company letterhead to:

Mr. Kevin Parkhurst

Principal Contracting Officer

National Railroad Passenger Corporation

30th & Market Streets, 5th Floor, Box 12

Philadelphia, PA 19104

E-Mail: (deleted fcor OTOL posting)

QUALIFICATIONS:

Qualification of vendors will be based on a demonstration of:

Relevant experience with design, manufacture and delivery of rail passenger electric locomotive projects which have already been successfully completed, or which are currently in progress.

Proven project management, quality assurance, warranty support, field support and rail industry innovation.

Financial resources/capability.

REQUESTS FOR THE RFP PACKAGE MUST BE RECEIVED BY AMTRAK NOT LATER THAN 2:00 P.M., JULY 10, 2009 AND COMPLETED RFP PACKAGE MUST BE SUBMITTED TO AMTRAK NOT LATER THAN THE TIME AND DATE ESTABLISHED AS THE DUE DATE WHICH IS TENTATIVELY SCHEDULED FOR 2:00 P.M., OCTOBER 20, 2009. ANY REQUEST NOT RECEIVED BY 2:00 P.M. ON JULY 10, 2009 MAY NOT BE GIVEN CONSIDERATION.

(DURHAM / BRUSS)

Interesting stuff. I mean I guess it's a good thing that Amtrak is starting to look towards the future while times are good. My concern though is that they've just poured a whole bunch of money into upgrading the AEM-7s. Is Amtrak looking for more fleet flexibility or to be able to put two ponies on more trains for reliability reasons. Is it possible that they may try to sell some of the AEM-7s off to operators like MARC and SLE? Or is this part of the push for downstate Virginia electric service?

battalion51 said:

Interesting stuff. I mean I guess it's a good thing that Amtrak is starting to look towards the future while times are good. My concern though is that they've just poured a whole bunch of money into upgrading the AEM-7s. Is Amtrak looking for more fleet flexibility or to be able to put two ponies on more trains for reliability reasons. Is it possible that they may try to sell some of the AEM-7s off to operators like MARC and SLE? Or is this part of the push for downstate Virginia electric service?

Click to expand...

I think they will put the DC AEM-7s (the originals) out to pasture. They have become too unreliable for use by anyone. I think the ACs (the ones that got upgraded with the AC propulsion pack) will last another 5 years or so. One has to realize that these engines are used extremely intensively.

The RFP looks like it describes the new NJT ALP46s to a tee. Though I do not believe the 1 ALP46 can pull 18 car trains such as the Silver service. They want HHP like pull in a more reliable platform. But why only 40 if Amtrak needs to replace some 50 AEM7s?

frequentflyer said:

The RFP looks like it describes the new NJT ALP46s to a tee. Though I do not believe the 1 ALP46 can pull 18 car trains such as the Silver service. They want HHP like pull in a more reliable platform. But why only 40 if Amtrak needs to replace some 50 AEM7s?

Click to expand...

20 + 40 means that if Amtrak execises all options, 50 AEM-7s will be replaced by 60 new electric locomotives. The HHP-8 is still runnable, although I would not care to guess for how long, and the AEM-7ACs are good enough to last a while. The AEM-7DCs will, according to an Amtrak report, become Cabbages.

Currently we have:

20 AEM-7DC

29 AEM-7AC

14 HHP-8

Total: 63 electric locomotives.

If all options are exercised, we will have:

20 NEC-compatible Cabbage cars,

60 new Electric Locomotives

29 AEM-7ACs

14 HHP-8s

Total: 103 electric locomotives.

This would produce an expansion of the fleet by 40 units. But its more then that. Those 20 AEM-7 DCs are extremely unreliable. According to Amtrak, the engine availibility of the AEM-7DC is only 58.6%, the AEM-7AC is 73.2%, and the HHP-8 is 71.8%.

That means that Amtrak has, realistically at any one time:

11 AEM-7DC

21 AEM-7AC

10 HHP-8AC

Or a total of 42 locomotives availible. Now, if we were to assume that Amtrak bought ALP-46s (not the As, since we don't know how reliable they are) and maintained them to NJ Transit standards, the ALP-46 locomtives would be availible 86.7% of the time, and 60 of them would create 52 availible locotmotives, a gain of 10 and that's with scrapping the entire fleet immediately. If they left the AEM-7AC and HHP-8 locomotives in there, they'd have 83 locomotives availible on a daily basis.

Translation: ordering 60 electrics and scrapping the DCs could potentially double Amtraks availaible electric locomotive fleet.

frequentflyer said:

The RFP looks like it describes the new NJT ALP46s to a tee. Though I do not believe the 1 ALP46 can pull 18 car trains such as the Silver service. They want HHP like pull in a more reliable platform. But why only 40 if Amtrak needs to replace some 50 AEM7s?

Click to expand...

How often do the existing NEC electrics pull 18 coaches?

Is it possible that the options have been put in there anticipating extension of electrification to Richmond in the next 5 years?

Neil_M said:

frequentflyer said:

The RFP looks like it describes the new NJT ALP46s to a tee. Though I do not believe the 1 ALP46 can pull 18 car trains such as the Silver service. They want HHP like pull in a more reliable platform. But why only 40 if Amtrak needs to replace some 50 AEM7s?

Click to expand...

How often do the existing NEC electrics pull 18 coaches?

Click to expand...

I would think rarely. BUT if they need to rescue a train, it might be needed.

AAARGH! said:

Neil_M said:

How often do the existing NEC electrics pull 18 coaches?

Click to expand...

I would think rarely. BUT if they need to rescue a train, it might be needed.

Click to expand...

I wonder where they will find platforms to hold all of those 18 coaches. Maybe a couple in New York and Washington?

Dates were pushed back due to confusion and many questions from bidders.

Stephen

AAARGH! said:

Neil_M said:

frequentflyer said:

The RFP looks like it describes the new NJT ALP46s to a tee. Though I do not believe the 1 ALP46 can pull 18 car trains such as the Silver service. They want HHP like pull in a more reliable platform. But why only 40 if Amtrak needs to replace some 50 AEM7s?

Click to expand...

How often do the existing NEC electrics pull 18 coaches?

Click to expand...

I would think rarely. BUT if they need to rescue a train, it might be needed.

Click to expand...

True, but pushing a failed train is unlikely to be at 125mph.

Neil_M said:

AAARGH! said:

Neil_M said:

frequentflyer said:

The RFP looks like it describes the new NJT ALP46s to a tee. Though I do not believe the 1 ALP46 can pull 18 car trains such as the Silver service. They want HHP like pull in a more reliable platform. But why only 40 if Amtrak needs to replace some 50 AEM7s?

Click to expand...

How often do the existing NEC electrics pull 18 coaches?

Click to expand...

I would think rarely. BUT if they need to rescue a train, it might be needed.

Click to expand...

True, but pushing a failed train is unlikely to be at 125mph.

Click to expand...

It was a thought....

AAARGH! said:

Neil_M said:

AAARGH! said:

Neil_M said:

frequentflyer said:

The RFP looks like it describes the new NJT ALP46s to a tee. Though I do not believe the 1 ALP46 can pull 18 car trains such as the Silver service. They want HHP like pull in a more reliable platform. But why only 40 if Amtrak needs to replace some 50 AEM7s?

Click to expand...

How often do the existing NEC electrics pull 18 coaches?

Click to expand...

I would think rarely. BUT if they need to rescue a train, it might be needed.

Click to expand...

True, but pushing a failed train is unlikely to be at 125mph.

Click to expand...

It was a thought....

Click to expand...

My guess would be they are just setting themselves up to have a little padding. They might never use an 18 car consist, but they would like to know they have it.

Only thing I can figure would be if some new Viewliner Equipment you could see the LD trains growing in length. Then they would loose the heritage equipment allowing them to go faster.

jis said:

AAARGH! said:

Neil_M said:

How often do the existing NEC electrics pull 18 coaches?

Click to expand...

I would think rarely. BUT if they need to rescue a train, it might be needed.

Click to expand...

I wonder where they will find platforms to hold all of those 18 coaches. Maybe a couple in New York and Washington?

Click to expand...

:lol: The new metropark platforms would come pretty close to holding an 18 car train I would think. Although it might just be deceptive since MET is on a curve.

Long Train Runnin said:

Only thing I can figure would be if some new Viewliner Equipment you could see the LD trains growing in length. Then they would loose the heritage equipment allowing them to go faster.

Click to expand...

Don't Viewliners also contribute to the speed restriction? They don't look very aerodynamic.

Murjax said:

Long Train Runnin said:

Only thing I can figure would be if some new Viewliner Equipment you could see the LD trains growing in length. Then they would loose the heritage equipment allowing them to go faster.

Click to expand...

Don't Viewliners also contribute to the speed restriction? They don't look very aerodynamic.

Click to expand...

Aerodynamics have nothing whatsoever to do with it. the issue is the trucks and the general structural integrity of the cars. The Viewliner trucks aren't rated for 125, although the same trucks can do 125 under the ex-metroliner cab-cars, so its probably simply a rating thing and could be dealt with easily. The Heritage diners are literally falling apart. Add 15 mph to the speed they are hauled at and it happens even faster.

It's got a lot more to do with the entire car, not just where steel meets steel. You've got structural integrity, crashworthiness, and a whole host of other issues.