Derailment of Cascades #501, DuPont WA, 2017-12-18

[jis]

Latest (12/20 morning) from NTSB says that no brake application was initiated at the approach to the curve. The first brake application happened automatically. So everyone is pretty puzzled about why.

Looking more and more like situational awareness. "Where am I?"

Situational awareness when it comes to trains means, to me, missing where you are located by a distance, which can happen, and results in things like 188 where the air is dumped too late for avoiding a derailment.

This seems to me to be something else. The air was dumped automatically, as designed by Westinghouse over 100 years ago, when the attitude of the derailing train caused one of the brake lines to disconnect, engaging a fast dump protocol. That means nobody applied the brakes.

To me this means that either the engineer was non compis mentis, or the controls werent responding. Even if he had his head turned in conversation with the conductor trainee his peripheral vision should have picked up the turn at some point and he should have slammed the ebrake button. Even Sanchez at Chatsworth, who was texting, applied the brake uselessly at the last second.

I dont knoe how the voice recorder, if there is one, works, but one would at least expect an expletive.

The lack of brake application indeed is a huge mystery. The event recorder actually records control inputs, so it is lack of control input that is the mystery. There is a chance it could be a failure of the control system. We'll just have to wait until NTSB completes its analysis.

I don't think it could be a failure of the control system. If the engineer was aware of where s/he was, and s/he tried to apply the brakes and they failed, then s/he would have known that. At that point s/he would have put the brake into emergency using the normal brake control handle. Failing that, there should have been another emergency brake valve in the cab. If that failed, s/he could have radioed the conductor to put the train into emergency from back in the train. Since the train would have needed to slow down well before the curve, an engineer who was aware of where the train was, and who was not disabled in some way, should have been able to have the brakes applied before they got to the curve.

jb

Yep. All reasonable conjectures. Now we await the facts from NTSB.

 

[VentureForth]

I was considering trying to take this train to be part of the inaugural run. My last flight on the 17th (IST-SNN-ATL) was delayed multiple times, and had I stayed on time I most likely would have gotten stuck in the Atlanta fiasco anyway. This is definitely a black eye for the Cascades.

IST-SNN-ATL?

What airline flies that?

Turkish Air flight 6551 originates in Istanbul - Sharon - Atlanta - Chicago, though the IATA designation for Sharon, Ireland is EINN... Nice 747-400 route, which, by the way, DID arrive without a hitch in ATL on the 17th and managed to depart on the 18th to Chicago only 3 hours late.

 

[jis]

Turkish Air flight 6551 originates in Istanbul - Sharon - Atlanta - Chicago, though the IATA designation for Sharon, Ireland is EINN...

You meant to say that the ICAO code for Shannon, Ireland is EINN, I suppose.

The IATA code is SNN.

But in general this is quite an odd thread to be discussing this IMHO.

 

[SARGuy]

Gents (and Ladies too, I reckon)

I'm not a train enthusiast, but I am local to this event and have been following this thread with great interest.
A tremendous amount of data and detail, I must say.
Thank you for that.

Re: the folks who were discussing transporting engine 1402 from the scene, these pics came across this AM and I thought you might find it interesting.

Cheers,

Ron

 

[VentureForth]

Turkish Air flight 6551 originates in Istanbul - Sharon - Atlanta - Chicago, though the IATA designation for Sharon, Ireland is EINN...

You meant to say that the ICAO code for Shannon, Ireland is EINN, I suppose.
The IATA code is SNN.

But in general this is quite an odd thread to be discussing this IMHO.

Yeah, that.

 

[VentureForth]

Gents (and Ladies too, I reckon)

I'm not a train enthusiast, but I am local to this event and have been following this thread with great interest.

A tremendous amount of data and detail, I must say.

Thank you for that.

Re: the folks who were discussing transporting engine 1402 from the scene, these pics came across this AM and I thought you might find it interesting.

Cheers,

Ron

I have never seen a contraption like that.

 

[nsaspook]

Gents (and Ladies too, I reckon)

I'm not a train enthusiast, but I am local to this event and have been following this thread with great interest.

A tremendous amount of data and detail, I must say.

Thank you for that.

Re: the folks who were discussing transporting engine 1402 from the scene, these pics came across this AM and I thought you might find it interesting.

Cheers,

Ron

I have never seen a contraption like that.

It's a superload trailer.

http://www.diamondheavyhaul.com/equipment.htm

 

[jis]

Looks like the engine frame has survived intact, which is quite remarkable.

 

[VentureForth]

Maybe a stupid question - but a moot point now anyway - why not load it onto a flat rail car? Or replace the trucks and trailer it?

 

[railiner]

Probably because the railway around it is too torn up? Don't know....

Anyway, that is some rig! 48 wheels not even counting the additional 10 on the tractor...have to, to distribute all that locomotive weight on a highway not built to handle it....

 

[John Bobinyec]

Maybe a stupid question - but a moot point now anyway - why not load it onto a flat rail car? Or replace the trucks and trailer it?

They would've had to lift it way back up to the right of way. Easier to lift it a couple of feet onto a lowboy.

jb

 

[Blackwolf]

I find it extremely difficult to comprehend any chance of 1402 ever being repaired and placed back in service. A parts unit, at best, in the very distant future. Much like 601.

That is a considerable amount of visible damage. Not to mention 132 tons of complex machinery took Mr. Toad's Wild Ride of 25 or so vertical feet at 80 MPH through the woods and onto an interstate. There's so many things shook up in there; a Martini would only be able to relate to the experience.

All that being said, I'd say the Sprinter/Charger line has proven itself to be exceptionally safe for crew survivability when in an incident. I pray there are no further "tests" to this statement.

 

[greatcats]

For what this may be worth - a previous poster mentioned that the engine derailed at the point where the concrete ties ended and wooden ties continued. This can clearly be seen in the preceding Lowboy pictures. I was just discussing this with my former railroad co-worker friend and he said until fairly recently there was a spot like that near Dover, NJ, from where concrete ties changed to wooden, and apparently due to the lack of flexibility in the concrete ties, and changing to the wooden, a severe bump would be felt on the rather new dual purpose locomotives and the trucks would hit the ground. It was a problem that he believes was rectified. This could very well have been the case in Washington, but of course it seems that excessive speed is also a factor.

 

[OBS]

I find it extremely difficult to comprehend any chance of 1402 ever being repaired and placed back in service. A parts unit, at best, in the very distant future. Much like 601.

That is a considerable amount of visible damage. Not to mention 132 tons of complex machinery took Mr. Toad's Wild Ride of 25 or so vertical feet at 80 MPH through the woods and onto an interstate. There's so many things shook up in there; a Martini would only be able to relate to the experience.

All that being said, I'd say the Sprinter/Charger line has proven itself to be exceptionally safe for crew suitability when in an incident. I pray there are no further "tests" to this statement.

Nonsense, it will be repaired and back in service before New Year's.......

 

[greatcats]

I find it extremely difficult to comprehend any chance of 1402 ever being repaired and placed back in service. A parts unit, at best, in the very distant future. Much like 601.

That is a considerable amount of visible damage. Not to mention 132 tons of complex machinery took Mr. Toad's Wild Ride of 25 or so vertical feet at 80 MPH through the woods and onto an interstate. There's so many things shook up in there; a Martini would only be able to relate to the experience.

All that being said, I'd say the Sprinter/Charger line has proven itself to be exceptionally safe for crew suitability when in an incident. I pray there are no further "tests" to this statement.

Nonsense, it will be repaired and back in service before New Year's.......

Not humorous.

To clarify, it was not my comment ( greatcats ) saying the locomotive would be back in service by New Year's, which appears might be the case. I commented that the remark was not humorous and I feel that it is in poor taste.

 

[greatcats]

SARGuy - Thank you for posting the pictures, which are difficult to study.

 

[SARGuy]

it might be nothing, but I saw that there is an orange box spray painted around the rail joint on the east (right?) track rail. (circled in red, lower left corner of pic.)
This is almost exactly where 1402 left the track. There appears to be a slight misalignment/height difference there, perhaps 5mm.
That wouldn't be enough to cause a derailment, would it?

 

[Hotblack Desiato]

For what this may be worth - a previous poster mentioned that the engine derailed at the point where the concrete ties ended and wooden ties continued. This can clearly be seen in the preceding Lowboy pictures. I was just discussing this with my former railroad co-worker friend and he said until fairly recently there was a spot like that near Dover, NJ, from where concrete ties changed to wooden, and apparently due to the lack of flexibility in the concrete ties, and changing to the wooden, a severe bump would be felt on the rather new dual purpose locomotives and the trucks would hit the ground. It was a problem that he believes was rectified. This could very well have been the case in Washington, but of course it seems that excessive speed is also a factor.

I don't think that's the case. Look at the image in post 263. You can see the concrete ties end well before the point where the train actually left the rails.

 

[greatcats]

Hotblack - perhaps your point may have validity, although i tend to see the point made by my co-worker. There are various ifs ands and buts here, and none of us should try to be the investigators.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Much like 601.

I believe 601 is still “under wraps’ for litigation purposes. I don’t think it’s been scrapped yet - if it will be scrapped.


Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Blackwolf]

Much like 601.

I believe 601 is still “under wraps’ for litigation purposes. I don’t think it’s been scrapped yet - if it will be scrapped.


Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

That's my point.

 

[frequentflyer]

it might be nothing, but I saw that there is an orange box spray painted around the rail joint on the east (right?) track rail. (circled in red, lower left corner of pic.)

This is almost exactly where 1402 left the track. There appears to be a slight misalignment/height difference there, perhaps 5mm.

That wouldn't be enough to cause a derailment, would it?

tracks.JPG

How can this train leave the tracks like that and there not be much damage to the rails?

 

[KmH]

This is almost exactly where 1402 left the track.

tracks.JPG

What official (and where), in their official capacity, has said that is about where 1402 left the tracks?

 

[SARGuy]

Just because it's not been officially stated to the media doesn't mean that "officials" aren't saying it.
I'm sure you didn't mean to come across as aggressive as you did.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

it might be nothing, but I saw that there is an orange box spray painted around the rail joint on the east (right?) track rail. (circled in red, lower left corner of pic.)

This is almost exactly where 1402 left the track. There appears to be a slight misalignment/height difference there, perhaps 5mm.

That wouldn't be enough to cause a derailment, would it?

I don't think that's the case. Look at the image in post 263. You can see the concrete ties end well before the point where the train actually left the rails.

Speculative uninformed theory: Engineer is somehow incapacitated; the train continues at 80mph in a 30 mph zone. Train then hits bump at the switch between concrete and wooden ties. Already destabilized, the train hits a slight vertical kink in the rail- a bump under normal circumstances, but the final blow to an already destabilized and very overspeed train. These factors combine to vertically move the fast moving locomotive just enough that it leaves the rails without much lateral force, or tearing up the tracks as it leaves.

Any if ANYONE runs with this as anything other than random speculation, I will have you FLAYED.