Dining Car removed on Silver Star

[Anderson]

I will be taking my first overnight trip on a diner-less Star in a couple of weeks, from ORL-WAS. I plan to eat dinner before the approximately 7:30pm departure and bring food for breakfast and lunch for the next day. My savings was about $80. On my return trip, I was lucky to snag a low bucket Meteor fare (when the Star was medium bucket). My timing was perfect that day.

Yeah, but you've got a damned good Turkish restaurant across the street from your station;-)

For me, northbound I tend to prefer the Star out of central Florida: The timing is good and gives me basically a full day in Florida (Aquatica or WDW until about 1700 is doable); late enough that I can, for example, viably grab dinner somewhere (even a mid-afternoon supper at Disney isn't unreasonable to try and pull off); I'd usually just lay in during the morning anyway (the OBS generally knows this about me by now) so no diner at breakfast isn't a horrid downside. Being able to sleep until 1130 or so and then get up in time to disembark at RVR is nice. The Meteor's NB timings are a mixed bag as well (leaving before 1400 basically kills the day in FL, while arriving at 0430 in RVR is...well, arriving at 0430 at RVR).

Southbound, I'm in an annoying predicament: Boarding at RVR the Star hits at about 1700 while the Meteor hits at about 2140. So I can either be on the Star, which has no dining car at dinnertime (the one time I really want a dining car) or I can be on the Meteor, dodge being on the train at dinner, but still pay for the dining car.

FWIW the Star has become basically a two-day-corridors-with-overnight-in-the-middle train. The sleeper turnover at RVR is astounding, and apparently there's much the same at RGH.

I will say that if they roll out the meals now available on the Cardinal it isn't the end of the world...and I'll also be bold and suggest that there are a lot of trains which are presently hemmed in by the lack of sleepers on key segments more than anything (the LSL leaps to mind here...it's sold out of roomettes for 16 of the next 30 days with all the others on $535+seat charge, or $641 before any discounts). I'm prepared to argue that if you can sell a substantial number of roomettes (at present prices) for more than $0.50/mile [1] you're probably to the point you should be adding capacity rather than pushing prices up further. Regrettably Amtrak can't/won't do this [2]. The topic of additional frequencies on some of the higher-yielding routes (LSL, I'm looking at you) on an "A-train"/"B-train" model is also worth looking into (e.g. one frequency has the diner, the other has the enhanced cafe) is also worth broaching; so, too, is the idea of using the enhanced cafe in the vein of the PPC to "stretch" food service capacity.

[1] The threshold is probably a bit lower; the LSL, at $641 NYP-CHI, is yielding 66.8 cents/mile on those rooms presuming single occupancy or 77.8 cents/mile for double occupancy.

[2] There is a deeply complicated discussion which could swallow about five other threads involving viable supplementary equipment and the CAF fiasco.

 

[jis]

Instead of merely massaging the LSL, shouldn't we perhaps be taking a look at Amtrak actually instituting the through cars through PGH per their own PIP? Perhaps it is time for NARP to crank up a reinstate through service from NJ/PA to Chicago via PGH campaign.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Instead of merely massaging the LSL, shouldn't we perhaps be taking a look at Amtrak actually instituting the through cars through PGH per their own PIP? Perhaps it is time for NARP to crank up a reinstate through service from NJ/PA to Chicago via PGH campaign.

Someone else here is speaking my language!

Well NARP is busy with another campaign but luckily AAO is pushing for the train we want: http://allaboardohio.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Keystone-Wolverine_linkup.pdf

Hopefully this train will take some demand from the LSL between CHI-NYP and spaces will free up/fares will go down.

 

[jis]

Philly, do you have the name of a specific person at AAO that we can get in touch with?

BTW, before Phase One I think we need a Phase Zero which would be institution of the Amtrak PIP.

Let us focus on getting service to Chicago before worrying about Detroit, which throws in an entirely new set of issues that are difficult to deal with.

Of course, if AAO's position is Detroit o bust, then I guess there will not be an opportunity to collaborate on shorter term plans. Some of us don;t want to wait for the perfection in ten years to miss out on more immediate service in the nearer future.

 

[afigg]

If Amtrak takes delivery of 25 Viewliner II diner cars, I can't see 8 to 10 of them being placed into low use or dead storage. My guess is that the Star will eventually get the new diner car, but will only offer pre-cooked or packaged meals sold at the counter. No table service, just buy the meal and drinks at the counter and either grab a seat in the diner car or take the food back to a room or a seat. With the big windows, the Viewliner II car becomes the closest single level equivalent to a sight-seer lounge car.

Since the staff is easily the largest expense of operating the diner cars, what would the food and beverage revenue and operating cost numbers be with only 2 OBS for the diner car?

 

[afigg]

Instead of merely massaging the LSL, shouldn't we perhaps be taking a look at Amtrak actually instituting the through cars through PGH per their own PIP? Perhaps it is time for NARP to crank up a reinstate through service from NJ/PA to Chicago via PGH campaign.

Someone else here is speaking my language!

Well NARP is busy with another campaign but luckily AAO is pushing for the train we want: http://allaboardohio.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Keystone-Wolverine_linkup.pdf

Hopefully this train will take some demand from the LSL between CHI-NYP and spaces will free up/fares will go down.

Lots of good proposals and ideas in the AAO viewgraphs. But shouldn't any discussion of it be in a Michigan, Pittsburgh, Three Rivers/BL thread? The one small silver lining for any new service through Ohio is that Gov. Kasich is term limited in 2018. So in 2019, Ohio will have a new Governor. Who may be hostile or indifferent to supporting intercity passenger train efforts in Ohio, but it is unlikely that any successor will be as hostile as Kasich has been to transit and passenger train service initiatives.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Philly, do you have the name of a specific person at AAO that we can get in touch with?

BTW, before Phase One I think we need a Phase Zero which would be institution of the Amtrak PIP.

Let us focus on getting service to Chicago before worrying about Detroit, which throws in an entirely new set of issues that are difficult to deal with.

Of course, if AAO's position is Detroit o bust, then I guess there will not be an opportunity to collaborate on shorter term plans. Some of us don;t want to wait for the perfection in ten years to miss out on more immediate service in the nearer future.

I would say Ken Prendergast (216) 288-4883 [email protected]

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I think he's talking about a new "at seat" menu for coach passengers. It was first tried on the CS and has expanded to a few others. Not sure if all LD trains have it yet.

Thinking of the obvious, doesn't the Acela do "at seat" menu and food for FC?

Just giving an example that Amtrak does have experience in the intricacies of such a service.

 

[zepherdude]

I have not kept up on this subject as I have little need for the Silver Star. However, I remembered as a family, we took the train a lot always to Miami. Illinois Central, The City of Miami and my mother always packed snacks of either fried chicken or chicken sandwiches on a onion roll, plus snacks, chips, cookies. We did buy drinks and ice. We ate breakfast, but nothing else on the train. We had a great time and I suppose it was a cost issue.

Now it really seems like to much trouble to carry food on board. I eat 2-3 meals a day on the train. I would miss the Dining Car. I like the experience of eating on the train. One hot dog or frozen pizza would really be enough for me on any trip. Health issues are an issue as well. I might as well eat fried bologna on bread. Better yet, a bread on bread sandwich, like the airlines pack out. I have not fried chicken in many, many years. So I can not see any reason for removing the food service car.

 

[niemi24s]

The last time I did a cost comparison between roomettes on the Star vs. Meteor, the Meteor was $60 more.

The last time I did one, the minimum difference was $72 when comparing low bucket to low bucket. But as the bucket levels increase, the difference rises to about $325 when comparing the high buckets. And because there's no reason to expect bucket levels on the Star and Meteor are linked in any way, the difference between the Meteor high bucket and the Star low bucket might be as much as $405. That's all based on this 9 Apr 2016 data:

 

[Anderson]

The reason I keep bringing up the LSL is:
(1) While I will grant that the Cap-Pennsylvanian through cars would have a not-insubstantial market, the LSL gets an added boost from heavy turnover in NY state; and
(2) Having some sort of "flipped" LSL offers a serious prospect of daylight service west of Buffalo (e.g. Cleveland/Toledo-Chicago) as well as some connectivity boons in New York state (e.g. at least a Thruway to Toronto becomes believable, a connection to the Adirondack actually happens, the Detroit bus suddenly doesn't have as awful a set of times, and you get connectivity on the eastern end "both ways"). If you could convince me that some sort of "Broadway variant" with similar timings in OH was a foreseeable outgrowth of those through cars then there would be more room to talk.

Basically, my view is that the "system effects" of a second LSL likely exceed that of the through cars or a third daily, "direct" NEC-to-CHI train with similar times to the LSL and Cap WB (especially given the time lost with the padding needed at PGH)...but this is back to the depth vs breadth argument.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

And because there's no reason to expect bucket levels on the Star and Meteor are linked in any way, the difference between the Meteor high bucket and the Star low bucket might be as much as $405.

I think you are missing the point, and with that, misapplying your data.

While the difference between the Meteor high bucket and the Star low bucket might be as much as $405, that $405 difference can't be attributed to only the dining car and meals.

Just pulling yet another example, for 10/19, I find the prices for coach seats to be identical for the Meteor and the Star. However, for a roomette, the Meteor is $389 and the Star is $339. A difference of $50, not $405.

Again, what's trying to be obtained here, is the cost due to meals, not price flux due to unsold inventory and the buckets. The latter always results in large price differences.

 

[Ryan]

The problem with that is that while interesting, it's not terribly relevant. Since the lack of a Diner also impacts demand, and demand impacts what fare class is available for purchase, comparing bucket for bucket doesn't really tell you much. Nor does comparing what the hypothetical differences are based on niemi24's table above.

What actually matters is the cost difference between the two trains for a given day of travel. Fortunately we have Amsnag for that, and with that and a little bit of Excel magic, we can get data that's actually useful to someone that is interested in buying a ticket and trying to decide between the two trains.

Assumptions:

1. Travel NYP-MIA.

2. The traveller is schedule agnostic, having no preference over one train or the other.

That said, for the next 30 days, there are 19 days for which there are roomettes are available on both 91 and 97. Of those 19 days, the upcharge to have the Diner (and the included meals that go along with it) break out as follows [$upcharge(number of days that upcharge applies)]: $12(1), $71(1), $72(1), $88(1), $164(12), $181(2), $257(1).

Bedrooms only have 15 days where there is a room available on both trains: $23(1), $118(3), $150(1), $283(5), $410(2), $448(2), $602(1).

After that, it's up to the traveller to make their decision - if I'm in a roomette, and traveling on this coming Monday, it's a no-brainer to pay the extra bucks to take 97 and get a full slate of meals for $12. If I'm in a bedroom, and traveling on one of the 10 days in the coming month where I can save over $250 by taking the train without the diner, I'm probably going to jump all over that (unless I've got a pile of money and the diner is that important to me).

 

[jis]

That is a very good point. I tend to give times and convenience in terms of fitting into the rest of the plan higher priority than the Diner.

 

[andersone]

We really need a sarcasm font

 

[jis]

Actually my comment was not a sarcastic one

 

[KmH]

So it looks like myself, and some others, disagree.

Such is life.

 

[Anderson]

The problem with that is that while interesting, it's not terribly relevant. Since the lack of a Diner also impacts demand, and demand impacts what fare class is available for purchase, comparing bucket for bucket doesn't really tell you much. Nor does comparing what the hypothetical differences are based on niemi24's table above.

What actually matters is the cost difference between the two trains for a given day of travel. Fortunately we have Amsnag for that, and with that and a little bit of Excel magic, we can get data that's actually useful to someone that is interested in buying a ticket and trying to decide between the two trains.

Assumptions:

1. Travel NYP-MIA.

2. The traveller is schedule agnostic, having no preference over one train or the other.

That said, for the next 30 days, there are 19 days for which there are roomettes are available on both 91 and 97. Of those 19 days, the upcharge to have the Diner (and the included meals that go along with it) break out as follows [$upcharge(number of days that upcharge applies)]: $12(1), $71(1), $72(1), $88(1), $164(12), $181(2), $257(1).

Bedrooms only have 15 days where there is a room available on both trains: $23(1), $118(3), $150(1), $283(5), $410(2), $448(2), $602(1).

After that, it's up to the traveller to make their decision - if I'm in a roomette, and traveling on this coming Monday, it's a no-brainer to pay the extra bucks to take 97 and get a full slate of meals for $12. If I'm in a bedroom, and traveling on one of the 10 days in the coming month where I can save over $250 by taking the train without the diner, I'm probably going to jump all over that (unless I've got a pile of money and the diner is that important to me).

With note to your assumptions, the numbers aren't all that different [NYP-WAS]-[ORL-MIA] from what I recall. Maybe a bit different if there's a space squeeze ORL-MIA but that's about it. I'm pulling NYP-MIA, WAS-MIA, NYP-ORL, WAS-ORL, NYP-JAX, and WAS-JAX. I'm using 06/06/16 as my "day of choice". Here's what I have:

NYP-MIA:

Base coach: $118

Star: $239/$452

Meteor: $310/$862

NYP-ORL:

Base coach: $111

Star: $230/$452

Meteor: $310/$862

NYP-JAX:

Base coach: $110

Star: $239/$452

Meteor: $310/$862

WAS-MIA:

Base coach: $114

Star: $239/$452

Meteor: $310/$862

WAS-ORL:

Base coach: $101

Star: $227/$452

Meteor: $293/$862

WAS-JAX:

Base coach: $93

Star: $203/$422

Meteor: $263/$806

Net difference:

NYP-MIA vs NYP-JAX: $8 coach base, $0 bedroom or roomette (though oddly there's a small drop for NYP-ORL on the Star)

NYP-MIA vs WAS-MIA: $4 coach base, $0 bedroom or roomette

WAS-MIA vs WAS-JAX: $21 coach base, $36/$30 Star, $57/$60 Meteor

TL;DR: New York to Florida is basically the same price on a given day regardless of destination (JAX is the northernmost station in the state for both trains, MIA the southernmost). New York to Miami versus Washington to Miami is basically the same price as well. There's a minor difference in New York-Orlando versus Washington-Orlando ($10 coach and a little more for a room) and a more noticeable one for New York-Jacksonville versus Miami-Jacksonville. Of note, under normal/on-time circumstances a passenger traveling NYP-JAX is going to get one less meal than a NYP-MIA passenger (lunch), as will an NB MIA-WAS vs MIA-JAX passenger on the Meteor (breakfast; dinner was dropped on the Star as well when it had a diner) though an SB passenger on the Meteor can get dinner either way. So if the system were sane there would arguably be a modest upcharge on the ends either way (since there is a net cost to having a sleeper passenger travel all the way through FL and/or all the way up the NEC on the food side).

(This is reminiscent of my observation that it is occasionally cheaper to book a coach ticket NYP-MIA than NYP-RVR on the Silvers owing to using Regional bucketing to RVR so as to avoid the train getting flooded with local pax)

 

[niemi24s]

for 10/19, I find the prices for coach seats to be identical for the Meteor and the Star. However, for a roomette, the Meteor is $389 and the Star is $339. A difference of $50, not $405.

For 07/28, I find prices for coach seats to be identical for the Meteor and the the Star. However, for a Roomette, the Meteor is $251 and the Star is $239. A difference of $12, not $50.

And if High Bucket Roomette on the Star is actually $251 instead of my estimate of $259 - and is actually charged the same date - the difference would be $0 on a day when and if the Meteor Roomette is at its low bucket of $251. Goofy stuff we're dealing with here, eh?

 

[peconicstation]

I wonder if the Silver Star would consider a CONO diner lite option as a compromise? Or the at your seat menu options that I saw last summer on the SWC (do they still have those?)

Be careful what you wish for there, the CONO menus, updated about 1 month ago saw a further downgrade in offerings.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/538/691/City-of-New-Orleans-Southbound-Train-59-Dining-Car-Menu-0416.pdf

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/386/868/City-of-New-Orleans-Northbound-Train-58-Dining-Car-Menu-0316.pdf

Ken

 

[Ryan]

for 10/19, I find the prices for coach seats to be identical for the Meteor and the Star. However, for a roomette, the Meteor is $389 and the Star is $339. A difference of $50, not $405.

For 07/28, I find prices for coach seats to be identical for the Meteor and the the Star. However, for a Roomette, the Meteor is $251 and the Star is $239. A difference of $12, not $50.
And if High Bucket Roomette on the Star is actually $251 instead of my estimate of $259 - and is actually charged the same date - the difference would be $0 on a day when and if the Meteor Roomette is at its low bucket of $251. Goofy stuff we're dealing with here, eh?

Cherry picked dates and wild hypotheticals. Awesome base on which to draw conclusions.

 

[jis]

Also looking at NYP - MIA fare is meaningless. The Star is a much more local turn train than the Meteor. Unfortunately Amtrak has it more right than the latter day cherry picking analysts here apparently.

 

[niemi24s]

Cherry picked dates and wild hypotheticals. Awesome base on which to draw conclusions.

Cherry picked as you had previously done and no wilder than within the realm of possibilities. So other than "goofy stuff", what conclusion drew your customary sarcasm?:

 

[WoodyinNYC]

If Amtrak takes delivery of 25 Viewliner II diner cars ...

Since the staff is easily the largest expense of operating the diners, what would the food and beverage revenue and operating cost numbers be with only 2 OBS for the diner cars?

... annual ticket and food & beverage revenue ... $11.96 million on the City of New Orleans extension.

• Potential cost reductions of $654,000 annually are possible if the chef position in the Cross-Country Café is removed from the proposal, and food is instead prepared and served by the Lead Service Attendant and Service Attendant. A trial of this staffing plan is currently underway on the City of New Orleans.

The above is from (and cut-and-paste sometimes ain't worth the effort LOL) pages 25 and 26 of Amtrak's recent Report for the Southern Railroad Commission on Gulf Coast service.

That mini-train would usually consist of a locomotive, sleeper, coach, coach baggage, and Cross Country Cafe.

Having a chef aboard adds $654,000 to the costs of this or any train?!?!

I'm laying heavy bets there'll be no chef when the CONO/Gulf Coaster heads to Orlando.

 

[Ryan]

Cherry picked dates and wild hypotheticals. Awesome base on which to draw conclusions.

Cherry picked as you had previously done and no wilder than within the realm of possibilities. So other than "goofy stuff", what conclusion drew your customary sarcasm?:

Actually, I looked at an entire month - that's pretty much the exact opposite of cherry picking.

I'm happy to look at the other 11 months if it'll calm your nerves.