suggestions to alleviate equipment shortages?

[MIrailfan]

Mine would be a retooling of closed factories and rehiring of unemployed workers in a jobs program.

 

[MrFSS]

Mine would be a retooling of closed factories and rehiring of unemployed workers in a jobs program.

Are you paying for this? There isn't any money elsewhere to do it.

 

[the_traveler]

Money is the big thing. It is MUCH more likely that the Amtrak subsidy will be reduced that it will be increased just so they can reopen factories to retrofit the extra cars needed.

 

[MIrailfan]

Lobby Congress.

 

[afigg]

Mine would be a retooling of closed factories and rehiring of unemployed workers in a jobs program.

Money or funding is the issue. There are 2 components of dealing with equipment shortages and reliability.

The first is more capital funds for rolling stock and locomotive overhauls. A rebuild program for the Superliner IIs would also probably be worthwhile as the Superliner IIs would be the last current LD equipment to be replaced.

The second component is sufficient funding to buy new equipment. There is no need to re-tool closed factories as the stimulus funds and influx of money from circa 2009 have resulted in production contracts and the development of facilities for building single level, bi-level cars, and diesel locomotives.

For single levels, CAF is building 130 Viewliner IIs in Elmira NY. The production was reportedly delayed in part because CAF had difficulty in finding qualified workers and welders to hire. Can't just hire unemployed assembly line workers, have to hire people with the right skill sets for building steel frame passenger rail cars. If Amtrak is satisfied with CAF production quality and performance, and there is no assurance given the long delays that they are, Amtrak could follow up with a multi-year contract for Amfleet II and then Amfleet I replacements. If Amtrak is not satisfied with CAF, then put out an open RFP for 700 single level cars. There will be intense competition for that contract. Just need to line up several billion dollars in funds over a 7 to 8 year period.

For Superliner replacements, Nippon-Sharyo is upgrading their facility to produce 130 corridor bi-level cars with an option for 300 more. If Amtrak had the funds, they could tap the options for coach cars and place a follow-on order under a new contract for sleeper, diner, lounge, trans-dorm cars to replace the Superliner Is.

With the award of the contract to Siemens with options for 225 additional diesel locomotives, the path to replacing the P-42 and P-40s is straight forward. Just add money.

 

[FriskyFL]

It's a sad, sorry state of affairs in this country when a manufacturer has to curtail production due to a lack of skilled welders. No wonder we're well on our way to becoming the world's largest banana republic.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Finding builders does not seem to be a problem. It's all about money, folks, finding enough to offer orders that are big enough to make it worthwhile for the manufacturers.

 

[XHRTSP]

So when the Superliner IIIs start coming off the line, can we expect the normal Amtrak coaches on the Pacific Surfliner to go back to more traditional Amtrak trains?

Also, could there be any possibility of using an additional order of new Viewliners to replace one of the long distances like CONO and use it's Superliners to add to other western trains, or bring back a discontinued route like the Pioneer?

 

[afigg]

So when the Superliner IIIs start coming off the line, can we expect the normal Amtrak coaches on the Pacific Surfliner to go back to more traditional Amtrak trains?

Also, could there be any possibility of using an additional order of new Viewliners to replace one of the long distances like CONO and use it's Superliners to add to other western trains, or bring back a discontinued route like the Pioneer?

The corridor bi-level cars have not been called Superliners, so they will likely have a different label. Once the lease with Amtrak is up, it would make sense for CalTrains to return the Superliner coach cars to Amtrak so CA can have a more uniform fleet of coach cars. But it likely will be later 2016 or 2017 before enough of the new bi-levels are delivered to free up the Superliner coach cars.

Yes, Amtrak could order more Viewliner sleepers, diner, bag-dorm cars under the option with CAF, but the current production won't produce LD coach and cafe/lounge cars. As for restoring the Pioneer, that requires a fair amount of equipment and UP wanted circa $300 million in track improvements in 2009 to run the train. Until Congress provides funds for the Pioneer, is not going to happen.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

So when the Superliner IIIs start coming off the line, can we expect the normal Amtrak coaches on the Pacific Surfliner to go back to more traditional Amtrak trains?

Also, could there be any possibility of using an additional order of new Viewliners to replace one of the long distances like CONO and use it's Superliners to add to other western trains, or bring back a discontinued route like the Pioneer?

If we can't get a serious multi-year funding conduit out of Congress, then we'll have to "make do". Ugh.

But in that case, I like the concept of replacing the two Eastern bi-level trains with single-level cars. That would be the City of New Orleans and the Capitol Ltd (and maybe the proposed Sunset Ltd shuttle New Orleans-San Antonio while we're at it).

That's what to do only if Amtrak can't get enuff long-term funding to place an order for the hundreds of Superliners needed. And that continues to time-disgraced tradition of just barely getting by, robbing Peter to pay Paul, and by using chewing gum and baling wire to keep the operation going.

But if in desperation you went to expand the number of single-level trains, you'd still need more Viewliner diners, bag dorms, sleepers, and baggage cars than the current 130-car order, of course. The 70-car option could get you all or most of that. The big appeal of this notion is that the assembly line is open; there's never going to be a better time to buy this stuff.

At the same time you'd need a big order for coaches, just to add capacity on the existing single-level trains. If you had to do it the time-disgraced way so often used in the past 40 years, you'd order a batch of 25 or so Viewliner II coaches from CAF, as many as one year's budget would pay for. Then after more money was authorized, you'd order another small batch. Prices would be higher for boutique-sized orders when you really need big-box-store-sized orders,. Sadly Congress knows well how to waste money that way.

But if Amtrak could order hundreds of cars at a time to get the volume discount pricing, they could be Viewliner coaches, or Amfleet coaches, whatever. You'd need plenty of them to replace worn out equipment, augment the existing trains, and replace bi-levels on two or three routes to allow the old bi-level equipment to be shifted west.

Even so I doubt if there'd be enuff to restart one of the dropped lines, like the Pioneer. Just adding another car or two to the trains on the current Western LD trains would soak up that modest supply in a minute. The best we could hope for would be to take the Sunset Limited daily and make it a real train.

And not to forget, you'd need more -- meaning new -- diesels to replace aging equipment and very modestly expand the pool.

So the choices are clear for Amtrak. Continue designed-to-fail shortages of funding and equipment, or invest enuff to achieve real progress. If I look at Amtrak, I'm optimistic. If I look at Congress, I almost despair for my country.

 

[neroden]

The production was reportedly delayed in part because CAF had difficulty in finding qualified workers and welders to hire.

Back in the 19th century, companies did on-the-job training. And they're going to have to do it again.
Currently, many companies seem to think that it's "someone else's problem" to train workers, while many of them also lobby to cut taxes and cut government funding for education.

I think the result is predictable. Depressing, but predictable. If the company doesn't train the workers and taxes don't pay to train the workers, who's gonna train the workers? Nobody.

 

[neroden]

The corridor bi-level cars have not been called Superliners, so they will likely have a different label.

I've heard them nicknamed "Surfliner IIs" because they seem to be an evolution of the Surfliner design. The Midwest may not like that name, though.

Once the lease with Amtrak is up, it would make sense for CalTrains to return the Superliner coach cars to Amtrak so CA can have a more uniform fleet of coach cars. But it likely will be later 2016 or 2017 before enough of the new bi-levels are delivered to free up the Superliner coach cars.

Even if they come earlier, there aren't that many Superliner coaches on the short corridors in California. Only seven, I believe? There are more Amfleets and Horizons (though still not very many) and California will want to return those first.

 

[neroden]

No wonder we're well on our way to becoming the world's largest banana republic.

Naw, Russia's still larger by land mass.

If I look at Amtrak, I'm optimistic. If I look at Congress, I almost despair for my country.

I think I despaired sometime back in late 2000, early 2001. Now I'm just trying to figure out how we rebuild -- what bits we can save and build on.

 

[afigg]

The corridor bi-level cars have not been called Superliners, so they will likely have a different label.

I've heard them nicknamed "Surfliner IIs" because they seem to be an evolution of the Surfliner design. The Midwest may not like that name, though.

Once the lease with Amtrak is up, it would make sense for CalTrains to return the Superliner coach cars to Amtrak so CA can have a more uniform fleet of coach cars. But it likely will be later 2016 or 2017 before enough of the new bi-levels are delivered to free up the Superliner coach cars.

Even if they come earlier, there aren't that many Superliner coaches on the short corridors in California. Only seven, I believe? There are more Amfleets and Horizons (though still not very many) and California will want to return those first.

Surfliner IIs would make sense for California. But, yes, Surfliners does not exactly work for the Midwest. Especially during a blizzard. My guess is that Amtrak and the states will come up with a new name, something bland and safe but also vaguely patriotic sounding.

The bi-levels would free up the Amfleets used on the one Pacific Surfliner consist, but they will also free up the refurbished Amfleets used on the Lincoln service trains. Both sets of Amfleets may get freed up and head back east before the 7 Superliners are freed up in CA. We should also keep in mind that Superliner coach cars have been used on the Cascades to replace Talgos undergoing service and in the Midwest in winter to fill in for frozen Horizons. The new Talgos and the Midwest bi-levels will mean that those cars can be kept available for the LD trains and overhauls when needed.

 

[afigg]

But in that case, I like the concept of replacing the two Eastern bi-level trains with single-level cars. That would be the City of New Orleans and the Capitol Ltd (and maybe the proposed Sunset Ltd shuttle New Orleans-San Antonio while we're at it).

That's what to do only if Amtrak can't get enuff long-term funding to place an order for the hundreds of Superliners needed. And that continues to time-disgraced tradition of just barely getting by, robbing Peter to pay Paul, and by using chewing gum and baling wire to keep the operation going

You are awfully eager to yank the Superliners away from routes that can use them and people that ride them. As noted, Amtrak will have more Superliner coach cars to draw on for the LD trains once the 130 corridor bi-levels are delivered. The sleepers are reportedly are the critical item. The 2012 PIP report did propose to rebuild the Superliner trans-dorms to add more rooms for revenue sale. That may a more effective use of limited capital funds to bump up sleeper room capacity on the Superliner trains while waiting for the capital funding for a major Superliner replacement order.

 

[MIrailfan]

that's why we need to also do national retraining of workers. its a win win.

 

[MikefromCrete]

But in that case, I like the concept of replacing the two Eastern bi-level trains with single-level cars. That would be the City of New Orleans and the Capitol Ltd (and maybe the proposed Sunset Ltd shuttle New Orleans-San Antonio while we're at it).

That's what to do only if Amtrak can't get enuff long-term funding to place an order for the hundreds of Superliners needed. And that continues to time-disgraced tradition of just barely getting by, robbing Peter to pay Paul, and by using chewing gum and baling wire to keep the operation going

You are awfully eager to yank the Superliners away from routes that can use them and people that ride them. As noted, Amtrak will have more Superliner coach cars to draw on for the LD trains once the 130 corridor bi-levels are delivered. The sleepers are reportedly are the critical item. The 2012 PIP report did propose to rebuild the Superliner trans-dorms to add more rooms for revenue sale. That may a more effective use of limited capital funds to bump up sleeper room capacity on the Superliner trains while waiting for the capital funding for a major Superliner replacement order.

I always flinch when I see these suggestions to "single level" the CONO and the CL. In my opinion that would downgrade these trains. The Superliners are far superior to any Amtrak single-level equipment. Any train that doesn't use the Corridor or enter NYP should be Superliner equipped. The next step for Amtrak is to order a bunch of single level coaches and lounges (from CAF if the Viewliner II's are ever delivered and are up to snuff) and then tack a Superliner LD order to the Midwest/California bi-level order from Nippon-Sharyo.

 

[me_little_me]

It's a sad, sorry state of affairs in this country when a manufacturer has to curtail production due to a lack of skilled welders. No wonder we're well on our way to becoming the world's largest banana republic.

It's having the skilled workers where the jobs are. And once this contract is done, if there is no more job in a city with what then would be excess welders.

Better to keep your welding job in a city where there is more chance of keeping a long-term job. And who wants to work in Elmira? And for a company that only opened there for the one contract. Obviously, no long-term training opportunities, pension, etc?

Then again, how good is the pay that is being offered? What are the benefits?

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

After reading the budget request issued by Amtrak where they are threatening to cut all the western long distance trains I don't think we will see superliners. I think Amtrak will go all single level in case congress doesn't bite and fund them adequately. Superliners aren't compatible in the northeast and eastern LD trains so they would be useless in the long run if Amtrak holds true to that demand.

I see it as an ultimatum from Amtrak... fund it or lose what we can't make money at and we'll close the 12% gap and be profitable by focusing on the NEC and single night LDs in the east along with state funded trains.

Amtrak has incompatible demands from congress and breaking even and reaching self sufficiency seems to be winning out.

 

[jis]

I've heard them nicknamed "Surfliner IIs" because they seem to be an evolution of the Surfliner design. The Midwest may not like that name, though.

Midwest would probably like to call them Cornfield Liners or some such :giggle:

 

[jis]

I always flinch when I see these suggestions to "single level" the CONO and the CL. In my opinion that would downgrade these trains. The Superliners are far superior to any Amtrak single-level equipment. Any train that doesn't use the Corridor or enter NYP should be Superliner equipped. The next step for Amtrak is to order a bunch of single level coaches and lounges (from CAF if the Viewliner II's are ever delivered and are up to snuff) and then tack a Superliner LD order to the Midwest/California bi-level order from Nippon-Sharyo.

I beg to disagree about Sleepers, specially when it comes to Roomettes. I think the Superliners are far inferior to Viewliners when it comes to those accommodations. If I had my druthers I'd stop Amtrak from ordering any further Superliner Sleepers. Additionally I'd like them to go back to short domes in lieu of Superliner Lounges so that we get back to having some forward view too.

 

[TWA904]

Why not approach International Lease Finance Corporation(IFLC) about leasing equipment.

Yes, maybe IFLC is better known for leasing commercial airliners. But then maybe they have

never been approached about rail equipment.

If I we ordering equiment for Amtrak, I'd order 1000 pieces of equipment. Yes we'd have to figure

out the proper combination of coaches, sleepers, diners, etc.

Then we add equipment to existing trains, bring the SL and Cardinal to daily service then

start expanding with new routes.

 

[nferr]

Why not approach International Lease Finance Corporation(IFLC) about leasing equipment.

Yes, maybe IFLC is better known for leasing commercial airliners. But then maybe they have

never been approached about rail equipment.

If I we ordering equiment for Amtrak, I'd order 1000 pieces of equipment. Yes we'd have to figure

out the proper combination of coaches, sleepers, diners, etc.

Then we add equipment to existing trains, bring the SL and Cardinal to daily service then

start expanding with new routes.

Amtrak leased cars for quite a while. It turned out to be more expensive.

 

[neroden]

And who wants to work in Elmira?

Hey, Elmira's a pretty nice town, albeit kind of hollowed out due to previous business closures. And it's less than an hour's drive away from Ithaca.

 

[Trogdor]

Why not approach International Lease Finance Corporation(IFLC) about leasing equipment.

Yes, maybe IFLC is better known for leasing commercial airliners. But then maybe they have

never been approached about rail equipment.

If I we ordering equiment for Amtrak, I'd order 1000 pieces of equipment. Yes we'd have to figure

out the proper combination of coaches, sleepers, diners, etc.

Then we add equipment to existing trains, bring the SL and Cardinal to daily service then

start expanding with new routes.

ILFC has a business model based on there actually being a market for their equipment. If one airline gives up their fleet, they can send the planes to another airline somewhere else in the world.
What the hell are they supposed to do with 1000 diners, sleepers, lounges and coaches if Amtrak gets a funding cut and can no longer pay for them? Pretty much no other railroad in the world would be able to use them.

Plus, there is one thing that I think should be painfully obvious: there will likely never be another new long-distance route in Amtrak's future. I can't see any scenario in which the funding would be available for the hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars it would require in track upgrades, stations, etc., to create an all-new long-distance route. Smaller reroutes, or frequency increases perhaps. But even then, if UP can ask for $750 million to increase a train from 3x/week to 7x/week, who's going to pay? That money would be much better spent on creating a short-distance corridor with respectable speed and multiple frequencies.

As for the discussion about Viewliner vs. Superliner sleepers, One thing to note is that the Viewliner is the lowest capacity revenue car in Amtrak's fleet. Amtrak should run them where they need to due to clearance restrictions, but nowhere else. The extra capacity of a Superliner (2 roomettes, 3 deluxe bedrooms, plus a family room, not to mention additional restroom and luggage storage capacity) is worth far more than the price premium of a bi-level car vs a single-level, especially when you consider the ongoing maintenance costs, most of which is car-based and not capacity-based (e.g. trucks, brake systems, electrical systems, etc.). A Viewliner really isn't any cheaper to maintain than a Superliner when it comes down to it. If you stick with the policy of one attendant per sleeper, then they're not any cheaper to operate, either.