Is Pennsylvania just...lame??

[northnorthwest]

I've been on here before lamenting the fact that there is only one train between PHL and PGH.

I was just struck by the fact that there are 4 trains a day that can get you from NYP to Buffalo, while, again, just one across my own state (with a shorter travel time).

Are there really millions clamoring to get to Buffalo and none to Pittsburgh? Is this just due to some state politics and funding? Are there other, perhaps historic, reasons?

I just find this, well…lame.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

About transportation spending pa is very dumb. Not just trains- even roads suck.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Pennsylvania could have as many trains as it wants, it would just have to pay for them (and probably supply equipment). Since the state has a hard time funding SEPTA and PAT adequately every year, the chances of such a thing happening are slim

 

[Trogdor]

Historically, Amtrak paid the full cost of the New York-Buffalo service, and it was only recently that that service be me. State responsibility. I can't remember for certain, but I think Amtrak also paid for he Pennsylvanian until the recent funding law change as well. So, neither state really had much of anything to do with the existing service levels to Buffalo/Pittsburgh, respectively, until the last year or so.

Meanwhile, PA was subsidizing the Keystones while NY got most of the ALB service "for free" (they subsidized the Adirondack, and I can't remember if they shared part of the Ethan Allen's costs or if that was all Vermont), so I think it's rather unfair to blame PA for the difference in rail service vs New York.

 

[SubwayNut]

The Ethan Allen was all Vermont, all New York State had to fund was the Adirondack north of ALB/SDY (can't remember which stop). The Ethan Allen was on the chopping block by Vermont during the recession. Now both states are funding it.

 

[afigg]

Pennsylvania could have as many trains as it wants, it would just have to pay for them (and probably supply equipment). Since the state has a hard time funding SEPTA and PAT adequately every year, the chances of such a thing happening are slim

However the state funding for SEPTA and PAT underwent a huge change last November with the passage of the gas tax increase bill that is expected to raise an additional $2.3 billion a year for transportation funding once the tax increase is ramped up in 4 years. SEPTA will get around $340 million more a year for capital funding which will allow the agency to maintain and modernize their system to get it to a state of good repair. The increase in direct funding is not enough to pay for SEPTA expansion projects, but the addition of $2.3 billion a year to the total state transportation pot provides funds to draw on to help pay for transit expansion projects when there is a more receptive administration in Harrisburg.
As for service to Pittsburgh, there is a study on improvement to the western Keystone corridor and adding service, but I have not heard anything about that study in a while. There are 2 issues that have resulted in only 1 train a day between Philly and Pittsburgh. The slow trip times between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh. The second is PA state politics which is sharply divided between the Philly & Pittsburgh metro regions and the rest of the state.

NY state politics has a upstate versus downstate/NYC power play where upstate NY gets some things they want such as the Adirondack and trains to Buffalo in exchange for funding projects in the NYC metro area. The politics in rural areas in PA are more hostile to Philly and Pittsburgh, so they are less interested in supporting better train service between the two cities.

With the increase in transportation funds, PennDOT now has more money to spend on upgrading the eastern Keystone stations and tracks, so those projects will advance. If a Democrat wins the Governor's race this fall, that may put upgrades to the western Keystone and increasing PHL-PGH service back on the agenda. Heck, NJT service over the Lackawanna cutoff to Scranton may get traction after years of going nowhere. PA has been in a ever worsening transportation funding crisis for many years. That changed with the gas tax increase. Which, BTW, is effectively a wholesale tax increase so if the price of oil and gas goes up, the state gets more revenue.

 

[jis]

Lackawanna Cutoff to Scranton will first require NJT to find the political will and money to complete restoring rails on that ROW upto Slateford. Without that the Pennsylvanians can keep running all the trains they want between Slateford and Scranton, but no access to NJ or NY. Incidentally, it is the dumb-heads in Trenton who are the standouts in being unable raise one of the lowest gas taxes in the nation.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[benjibear]

I am from PA and have argued many times that there needs to be at least two trains a day across the state with timing that you can go to Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, or Philly from any of those cities and be able to return the same day.

Also, there is a strong divide in the state. Pittsburgh and Philly really don't get along and are always trying to leverage more finding for their respective cities. In between there is vast rural areas especially west of Harrisburg that don't want to see any train funding and are happy just getting in their cars and driving.

 

[WICT106]

PA lame? No. Imagine: you could be living in WI. I mean, Harrisburg has train service, while Madison doesn't.

Also, there is a strong divide in the state. Pittsburgh and Philly really don't get along and are always trying to leverage more finding for their respective cities. In between there is vast rural areas especially west of Harrisburg that don't want to see any train funding and are happy just getting in their cars and driving.

One can make a similar statement about Madison and Milwaukee.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

PA is not lame. I used to live in Reading, and I will probably retire there because I just love the city because it is a) completely awesome and b) awesomely cheap. PennDOT's HQ, however, is probably pictured in the dictionary next to 'Lame'.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

Pittsburgh and Philadelphia also have very little to do with each other anyhow. There's not a whole lot of back and forth between the two cities. Here's an anecdote: I was born in 1982. From 1986-2003, I lived in the Pittsburgh area, 2003-2004 Erie, 2004-2007 State College, and 2007 to 2010 back in Pittsburgh. I have never been to Philadelphia. Closed I've been was switching from the Pennsylvanian to a NER to get back to DC. None of my friends back home have ever been to Philadelphia. Until last year, no one in my family had ever been to Philadelphia (one of my parents had a business trip because of a trade show or something). You name a city on the East Coast with a population over a million people and I've been there. Most of them in the last five years even. There was literally no reason to go to Philadelphia. Not a one. We stayed on our side and they stayed on theirs.

There's also not a whole lot of back and forth with the Western half of the Pennsylvanian's route to make a Western Keystone particularly useful. Pittsburgh is more up and down the I-79 corridor and few people ever really have a reason to go past New Stanton. And the Turnpike assures that the car wins the time battle on that one. Johnstown is out there in the wilderness and anything east of State College might as well be another planet. Pittsburghers do not look to the east, unless it's to fling insults at Harrisburg or the Flyers. Its a very inward looking city. Doesn't look west either. That's Ohio, the hated enemy.

Plus Pittsburgh doesn't really like mass transit or commuter trains anyhow. Look at how wildly unpopular the tunnel to get the T on the North Shore was. I take the CL two or three times a year and when I tell people, they almost always respond "that's a thing you can do?" Amtrak barely exists as a concept around there.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Inscription of W.C. Fields Tombstone in LA: "On the Whole I'd Rather Be in Philadelphia!" ^_^

 

[fairviewroad]

Are there really millions clamoring to get to Buffalo

There are not even hundreds of thousands clamoring to get to Buffalo. Its two stations together added up to 161,000 in FY13 ridership.

Even if you add in NFL you're still under 200,000.

 

[jis]

While it may be a historical accident that NY state has as many trains as it does running between New York and Buffalo, it is also a fact that when the time came New York State stepped up to the plate with the necessary funding to continue running them, and in addition has funded the first step in a long term project to improve service to run at 110 or 125 mph with more frequent service.

Pennsylvania at present does not have any significant activity int he area of seriously considering improvements to west of PA service AFAICT. They have on the other hand done a very decent job with Amtrak in reviving the eastern PA Keystone Service.

One feature that both NY and PA share now is that there is no food service in either the Eastern NY Empire Service or the Eastern PA Keystone Service.

 

[northnorthwest]

Pittsburgh and Philadelphia also have very little to do with each other anyhow. There's not a whole lot of back and forth between the two cities. Here's an anecdote: I was born in 1982. From 1986-2003, I lived in the Pittsburgh area, 2003-2004 Erie, 2004-2007 State College, and 2007 to 2010 back in Pittsburgh. I have never been to Philadelphia. Closed I've been was switching from the Pennsylvanian to a NER to get back to DC. None of my friends back home have ever been to Philadelphia. Until last year, no one in my family had ever been to Philadelphia (one of my parents had a business trip because of a trade show or something). You name a city on the East Coast with a population over a million people and I've been there. Most of them in the last five years even. There was literally no reason to go to Philadelphia. Not a one. We stayed on our side and they stayed on theirs.

There's also not a whole lot of back and forth with the Western half of the Pennsylvanian's route to make a Western Keystone particularly useful. Pittsburgh is more up and down the I-79 corridor and few people ever really have a reason to go past New Stanton. And the Turnpike assures that the car wins the time battle on that one. Johnstown is out there in the wilderness and anything east of State College might as well be another planet. Pittsburghers do not look to the east, unless it's to fling insults at Harrisburg or the Flyers. Its a very inward looking city. Doesn't look west either. That's Ohio, the hated enemy.

Plus Pittsburgh doesn't really like mass transit or commuter trains anyhow. Look at how wildly unpopular the tunnel to get the T on the North Shore was. I take the CL two or three times a year and when I tell people, they almost always respond "that's a thing you can do?" Amtrak barely exists as a concept around there.

I know all this.

And all that being said…you *should* visit Philly sometime!

And you should have more than one train to choose from!

 

[afigg]

Pittsburgh and Philadelphia also have very little to do with each other anyhow. There's not a whole lot of back and forth between the two cities. Here's an anecdote: I was born in 1982. From 1986-2003, I lived in the Pittsburgh area, 2003-2004 Erie, 2004-2007 State College, and 2007 to 2010 back in Pittsburgh. I have never been to Philadelphia. Closed I've been was switching from the Pennsylvanian to a NER to get back to DC. None of my friends back home have ever been to Philadelphia. Until last year, no one in my family had ever been to Philadelphia (one of my parents had a business trip because of a trade show or something). You name a city on the East Coast with a population over a million people and I've been there. Most of them in the last five years even. There was literally no reason to go to Philadelphia. Not a one. We stayed on our side and they stayed on theirs.

Yours is a rather extreme example. I grew up on the Main Line near Philly and people from there traveled to Pittsburgh. My nephew went to Univ of Pittsburgh from SE PA a few years ago. I would say that while people in the Philly region are mostly east coast travel oriented, trips to NYC, DC, up and down the coast are much more common than trips to Pittsburgh, it is not as if no one ever traveled to Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh was just on the other side of the state, not the other side of the planet.

The metro regions are connected by the winding PA Turnpike which as a toll road, and an ever more expensive toll road in recent years, helps to hold down road travel across the state. On the other hand, since Philly has an extensive transit system, those traveling from Pittsburgh to Philly for trips can take the train and reach many places in the Philly region without a car. I think someday there will be an HSR corridor connecting Pittsburgh to Philly, but before that can happen, there needs to be years of incremental improvements reducing trip times and by adding a 2nd daily train. Then a 3rd daily train when demand grows enough to support it.

 

[Nathanael]

The natural route for a passenger train across Pennsylvania, nowadays, goes through State College, which attracts people from both sides of the state.

Unfortunately that's a real project requiring real money. It's quite feasible (there's old ROW).

 

[RRUserious]

I guess this is a "westerner question" How long to drive between the cities?

 

[PRR 60]

I guess this is a "westerner question" How long to drive between the cities?

I've done it in under six hours including a stop.

 

[JoeZeppy412]

Turnpike tolls round trip are almost $70. Plus gas has to be another $60 at least. You'd think that would make the train more attractive. My friends son goes to Temple from Pittsburgh and they ride him there and back. I suggested Amtrak, and they said it wasn't a convenient schedule. So more convenient to drive 12 hours than to drop him off downtown at 6 am. Go figure.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

I've read over and over that when NS was asked about another train Harrisburg-Pitsburgh, the answer was, "Another train for you and another track for us." Well, there's room for another track -- the route used to carry four tracks, now only two. But on top of that, some of the stations are "on the wrong side" and some spurs to big users often cross the main lines.

Of course, if anyone wants to get serious, Amtrak has the study up on its site, under "About Amtrak" click "Reports & Documents," or maybe this link will work: http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/96/928/PennsylvaniaServiceStudies.pdf.

 

[RRUserious]

With all the things this country "affords" (*cough* bank bailout*cough) why can't we afford things that are so useful to so many?

 

[Bob Dylan]

With all the things this country "affords" (*cough* bank bailout*cough) why can't we afford things that are so useful to so many?

Cause the 1% and Corporations are Getting all the Money! The rest of us poor slubs can eat cake! :angry:

(For Example: Who can be against raising the Minimum Wage to $10.10 an Hour? The Greedy Old Party Can! (Thats a little over $20,000 a year! Most people couldn't live on that in the Cities!)

 

[Anderson]

I've read over and over that when NS was asked about another train Harrisburg-Pitsburgh, the answer was, "Another train for you and another track for us." Well, there's room for another track -- the route used to carry four tracks, now only two. But on top of that, some of the stations are "on the wrong side" and some spurs to big users often cross the main lines.

Of course, if anyone wants to get serious, Amtrak has the study up on its site, under "About Amtrak" click "Reports & Documents," or maybe this link will work: http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/96/928/PennsylvaniaServiceStudies.pdf.

On the one hand, it sounds like there would be issues with having trains cross over to stop at those stations. On the other hand, NS is probably over-bidding for one additional train...but that deal might be worthwhile if PA could get slots for another pair of round trips on top of the second Pennsylvanian, to be added later.

 

[afigg]

On the one hand, it sounds like there would be issues with having trains cross over to stop at those stations. On the other hand, NS is probably over-bidding for one additional train...but that deal might be worthwhile if PA could get slots for another pair of round trips on top of the second Pennsylvanian, to be added later.

Would Amtrak have retained the operating rights when the Three Rivers was discontinued? There were 2 daily trains running between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh as recently as 2005. If PA is willing to spend some money, they could upgrade the stations to have platforms on both sides or just the optimum side and build a pedestrian bridge over the tracks. However, the small passenger count at the stations between HAR-PGH other than Altoona and Johnstown make it difficult to justify the investment in significant station upgrades.

PennDOT is supposed to working on a funded Western Keystone corridor service study, but there has been no word on that study in some time.

Ah, just dug up the planthekeystone.com webpage for the Keystone Corridor West Study. The study was due to be completed in the summer of 2013. Ok, so its a little late.