Amtrak should be dismantled response.

[TVRM610]

Hello Guest Guest...

Thanks for clearing that up. Your response seems very clear and accurate. It also sounds like you were taken care of by your sleeping car attendant. Your brother failed to mention this. Your brother also failed to mention that you WERE served lunch. These are pretty important details.

I really do try to see both sides of the coin at all times. I've ridden Amtrak for years and years and there was a time (notably when Amtrak's priority was mail and express freight) when I agreed the only people who would take Amtrak were railfans like myself, and people who really couldn't travel any other way. But I've seen Amtrak improve remarkably so it's hard for me to hear such negative things from a company who I've personally rooted for and really been impressed with. The refurbished equipment, improved customer service, and greatly improved on time performance has to mean SOMETHING.

Yes.. Amtrak is not perfect... but it's not a luxury train, it's public transportation. It's moving people across the country like no other transit system does.

Anyways. thanks for the reply and it would be great to hear more of your thoughts as well. Hopefully your brother will be able to give more details in a reasonable way after the trip too.

 

[AlanB]

I realize that Amtrak Blue, but there was no reasonable reason to lock the original thread, and there are now 2 threads locked for no reason except they are about toilets.
Said mod. Will probably ban me for speaking against his actions.

Mod's can't ban members, only Admin's can do that.

And if you disagree or have questions about why a mod did something, the best course of action is to simply PM or email an Admin; not post about it publicly. Even if I took the action, I'm always open to further private discussion of the matter. I of course make no promises regarding undoing said action, but I do promise to always try to be fair in my decisions. And most times I do discuss the issue with the other Admin's, and sometimes the entire staff, before rendering any further decisions.

 

[Guest]

TVR- I think my biggest complaints are around the security. I know this has been discussed before, and everyone has their opinion of TSA versus the ability to train and detrain without the hassle, but I have some serious concerns after our trip.

I never had to show my ID once to anyone. Nobody validated that the name on the ticket was really who was on the train. I don't have anything to hide, but it is disconcerning to know that if I wasn't being checked out, I have to assume nobody else was being checked out either.

There were plenty of unattended bags that nobody knew who they belonged to, so it would be very easy for someone to board, leave a bag and de-train at a station only to leave a terrible encounter for those still on the train.

Also, we had a man in the sleeper next to us that de-trained and then another individual boarded at the same stop. When our attendant came to set our seats, I said "wow, you really turned that room over quickly" and he proceeded to tell me that flips like that are common and makes his job very high energy and he needed to stay organized, but it was for nothing because the passenger that was supposed to board didn't. I looked puzzled at him, because I saw a different man go into the room than was in there previously, and I said "you know someone is in there, right?". At which time, he said no, and knocked on the door to check the man's ticket. So, someone was able to board without the sleeper attendant even knowing.

To each their own, but I didn't feel comfortable without any oversight. I think that would be my biggest complaint with the trip.

 

[AlanB]

Train speed was a factor, the train was late so amtrak proceeded to break speed limits to catch up time (clocked at over 100 mph).

Well this so-called "freakishly uneducated" person is going to educate you. The problem is with your GPS!

In addition to the other reasons provided by many of the educated people here as to why the train wouldn't violate the speed limits; the simple reality is that the train cannot violate the speed limits. At least not for very long and not 10 MPH over the posted speed limit.

The engine's computers are pre-programmed with the maximum authorized speed for that route, in this case 90 MPH. In most cases, 79 MPH. Because the engineer, just like a driver cannot maintain a steady 55 MPH, the computer gives the engineer a leeway of 3 to 4 MPH over the speed limit for a minute or two at most. If the engineer remains above that speed limit for longer, or if he/she tries to go above that 3 to 4 MPH leeway, the computer will immediately apply the train's emergency brakes and bring it to an immediate halt.

At that point, the engineer would have to explain why the train stopped, and he/she would be relived immediately from duty.

Since that didn't happen, clearly the problem lies with either your reading the GPS or the GPS itself. And GPS isn't 100% accurate in the first place. Angle to the satellites, how many satellites, and other factors influence the speed readings of a GPS. And I'm sorry, but I do have to wonder if a bit of exaggeration is in play on your part too.

But regardless, this educated person can guarantee you that your train never hit 100 MPH!

Now that you posted this I will tell you that we smelled burning and "brakes". Two people stuck their heads out and asked what was going on as we had then stopped in the middle of the tracks. The announcement that came over the loud speaker is that they were waiting for "a favorable signal to continue".
Have no idea if it is related, but interesting....

While an emergency stop wouldn't have been hard enough to knock you off your feet, unless you were already unbalanced, it would have been noticeably more abrupt than a station stop or pulling off into a siding would be. However, the key point here is that had the engineer exceeded the speed so badly that the computer shut him/her down, then you would have sat there for several hours awaiting the replacement.

 

[TVRM610]

Now that you posted this I will tell you that we smelled burning and "brakes". Two people stuck their heads out and asked what was going on as we had then stopped in the middle of the tracks. The announcement that came over the loud speaker is that they were waiting for "a favorable signal to continue".

Have no idea if it is related, but interesting....

Not related. You would know if the train went into emergency.. it's a FAST stop. The smell of burning brakes is very common on Amtrak. Especially on routes with crazy terrain like the Chief.

You may think the engineer was being reckless, maybe you think that people who work for Railroads are uneducated too. But trust me, you have no idea the skill that it takes to run a train up and down crazy terrains all the while monitoring signals, speed restrictions (both permanent and temporary) and adjusting the trains operations to that unique day.

 

[greatcats]

I am still curious. Were you on the Southeest Chief that left LAX. May 6? I was on that train from Williams Jct. AZ.

 

[Guest]

Train speed was a factor, the train was late so amtrak proceeded to break speed limits to catch up time (clocked at over 100 mph).

Well this so-called "freakishly uneducated" person is going to educate you. The problem is with your GPS!

In addition to the other reasons provided by many of the educated people here as to why the train wouldn't violate the speed limits; the simple reality is that the train cannot violate the speed limits. At least not for very long and not 10 MPH over the posted speed limit.

The engine's computers are pre-programmed with the maximum authorized speed for that route, in this case 90 MPH. In most cases, 79 MPH. Because the engineer, just like a driver cannot maintain a steady 55 MPH, the computer gives the engineer a leeway of 3 to 4 MPH over the speed limit for a minute or two at most. If the engineer remains above that speed limit for longer, or if he/she tries to go above that 3 to 4 MPH leeway, the computer will immediately apply the train's emergency brakes and bring it to an immediate halt.

At that point, the engineer would have to explain why the train stopped, and he/she would be relived immediately from duty.

Since that didn't happen, clearly the problem lies with either your reading the GPS or the GPS itself. And GPS isn't 100% accurate in the first place. Angle to the satellites, how many satellites, and other factors influence the speed readings of a GPS. And I'm sorry, but I do have to wonder if a bit of exaggeration is in play on your part too.

But regardless, this educated person can guarantee you that your train never hit 100 MPH!

Now that you posted this I will tell you that we smelled burning and "brakes". Two people stuck their heads out and asked what was going on as we had then stopped in the middle of the tracks. The announcement that came over the loud speaker is that they were waiting for "a favorable signal to continue".
Have no idea if it is related, but interesting....

While an emergency stop wouldn't have been hard enough to knock you off your feet, unless you were already unbalanced, it would have been noticeably more abrupt than a station stop or pulling off into a siding would be. However, the key point here is that had the engineer exceeded the speed so badly that the computer shut him/her down, then you would have sat there for several hours awaiting the replacement.

That didn't happen, it was only 10 minutes or so. Our sleeper attendant said there were some unruly passengers in coach and that one had refused to not smoke on the train when the other sleeper occupants were inquiring to the smell and the stop... Apparently this person was left off at the next stop, but we did have some burning brakes smell. Who knows, maybe we hit a deer!

 

[Ispolkom]

To each their own, but I didn't feel comfortable without any oversight. I think that would be my biggest complaint with the trip.

Indeed, to each their own. I don't see the point of such oversight, when there are literally (and I do mean literally) thousands of grade crossings on the routes of any western Amtrak train. Why bother to bring a bomb on when you could run a much bigger one, nicely packaged in a truck, in a thousand places? It's just silly.

Heck, why hit an Amtrak train, when you could do much better with a freight train? I was in Minot on January 17, 2002.

 

[Guest]

I am still curious. Were you on the Southeest Chief that left LAX. May 6? I was on that train from Williams Jct. AZ.

No, we left 5/5 out of Chi and 5/10 out of LAX

 

[Guest]

To each their own, but I didn't feel comfortable without any oversight. I think that would be my biggest complaint with the trip.

Indeed, to each their own. I don't see the point of such oversight, when there are literally (and I do mean literally) thousands of grade crossings on the routes of any western Amtrak train. Why bother to bring a bomb on when you could run a much bigger one, nicely packaged in a truck, in a thousand places? It's just silly.

Heck, why hit an Amtrak train, when you could do much better with a freight train? I was in Minot on January 17, 2002.

Yea I agree there are much bigger targets, but it just seems so soft that it made me nervous. Not saying you are wrong, just giving my thoughts..

 

[AlanB]

I am getting very frustrated by locked threads, too. Unless there is a violation of the rules posted, I don't care if the thread is about potties, or started by a troll, or resurrected from 15 years ago. THREADS SHOULDN'T BE JUST ARBITRARILY LOCKED. The ONLY two reasons why a thread should be locked is because A) It violates the rules of the forum and is beginning to create HIGH tension and anxiety (ie: Politics, Religion, Sex), or B) There is another thread that was already started on the same topic and it's within the first 2 pages, in which case lock it if it's one post, merge it if there is dicussion.

VentureForth,

Threads are rarely "arbitrarily" locked. And in fact, most times if they are locked it is either after the entire staff has discussed the issue or it is locked by one pending the further discussion of the staff. The same thing can also happen via hiding either specific posts or the entire topic. Hidden posts may or may not be restored, depending on the issue. Hidden topics are almost always restored, once the issues that caused it to be hidden have been dealt with.

That said, I do regret to inform you that we have slightly different standards than the ones that you outlined. Sorry! However, as a few other people have noted and I have personally seen myself, by comparison to some other railfan forums, we lock very few threads here. And I can promise you, like I did TVM, that I will always be happy to discuss things further in private if someone disagrees with a locking. I make no promises other than to discuss things, but I am willing to discuss.

I tried to do that once on another forum that I won't mention, even pointing out to the Admin who locked the thread because he thought it some railfan's fantasy that it was actually true and I provided a link to the source, and the Admin basically told me "he didn't realize that it was true, but he couldn't be bothered to reopen the topic either." And it wasn't my thread, I was defending another person. That left a really bad taste in my mouth, which is one reason that I rarely go there anymore. And again, why I promise to discuss and seriously consider the other side.

 

[Guest]

Now that you posted this I will tell you that we smelled burning and "brakes". Two people stuck their heads out and asked what was going on as we had then stopped in the middle of the tracks. The announcement that came over the loud speaker is that they were waiting for "a favorable signal to continue".

Have no idea if it is related, but interesting....

Not related. You would know if the train went into emergency.. it's a FAST stop. The smell of burning brakes is very common on Amtrak. Especially on routes with crazy terrain like the Chief.

You may think the engineer was being reckless, maybe you think that people who work for Railroads are uneducated too. But trust me, you have no idea the skill that it takes to run a train up and down crazy terrains all the while monitoring signals, speed restrictions (both permanent and temporary) and adjusting the trains operations to that unique day.

I have called nobody a name or uneducated. Only reason I followed up with that instance is that your response had me recall that moment, and I have no idea how long a "computer lock up" would be in those instances. If it were only 10 minutes, it seemed plausible that it could have happened, but I will take your understanding of hours and say that it didn't happen. No arguments here...

 

[TVRM610]

Thanks Alan... I still think there were too many threads locked at the same time (the one bathroom thread was getting a little crazy but the other 2 had nothing wrong). But it seems like things are "back on track."

Guest_Guest... I see your point on safety. But it's really scary to me that an American is "scared" that ID's aren't checked etc. That's how America used to be! We have gotten into this crazy fear culture that unless everyone's ID is checked, and the TSA pats you down then things aren't safe.

My question is.. when does it end? Do you feel nervous in the grocery store because there is a guy with a backpack? Oh no what's in there?

Have you ever ridden a subway or public bus? Lots of businessmen with briefcases... should they all be inspected? Should everyone riding a NYC subway have ID's checked before the ride?

Well what is the difference between a subway ride and an Amtrak train?

Trust me.. I get what you are saying. I'm just trying to flip the coin around and say why does that ID check make you feel safer when flying?

 

[AlanB]

The only thing I disagree with is guest postings. I understand why they allow guest postings - it undoubtedly brings in more traffic. However, I still think that the negatives outweigh the positives - registering is free, requires very little time, and would clear up a lot of confusion about what this board is and what you can expect here. But that's just my opinion.

Actually it's not about traffic at all.

The AmtrakTrains static website was created by a very young Anthony many years ago now. He saw a void in the amount of information available on the net about Amtrak; Amtrak itself only had a booking engine on the net at that time basically. So he created a site to try to provide some answers to questions that people would be likely to ask. The forum was added a few years later as forum software started to become available, as that allowed people to ask questions directly and get answers from Anthony and a few others. I probably came along about a year after he started that forum and started posting.

Over the years the static website more or less disappeared except for a home page that basically says, visit the forum.

But it is because of that original desire to answer questions of those wondering about things related to Amtrak that this site exists, and to honor that original intent that we continue to allow guest postings. Not everyone wants to join an online forum for various reasons, which may or may not seem valid to us. But many also only want to ask a question or two, and then know that they will most likely never return, so they don't want the hassle of signing up to do that.

So for as long as we can continue to adequately manage the spammers who would love to take advantage of the guest posting feature, we will continue to allow guest postings to continue to honor the original intent to help that inspired Anthony so many years ago to create AmtrakTrains.com.

 

[oldtimer]

As a life long railroader I am able to tell you that I personally saw a letter of reprimand that was issued to an engineer for exceeding the 79 mph speed limit on a downhill section of the railroad. He was offered a letter of reprimand or face a formal investigation for operating an Amtrak train at the breakneck speed of 80 mph where the maximum operating speed was 79 mph.

 

[AlanB]

Trust me.. I get what you are saying. I'm just trying to flip the coin around and say why does that ID check make you feel safer when flying?

Building upon this point; let me point out that at least 2 of the terrorists that died when their planes hit the Twin Towers were carrying valid NJ Driver Licenses. ID checks didn't stop that from happening!

Furthermore, the reason that we American's can no longer drive over the border with Canada with nothing more than a birth cert and a Driver License is because the heavily trained border agents couldn't always spot a fake one. With 50 states, each having multiple types of licenses, it was simply a monumental task for them to spot one. Amtrak personnel have never received any training on how to spot a fake one.

So any check of ID's is really nothing more than security theater, its a feel good measure. It makes us feel good, but it does nothing to deter those intent on harm. Again, it certainly didn't stop 9/11.

 

[Guest]

The only thing I disagree with is guest postings. I understand why they allow guest postings - it undoubtedly brings in more traffic. However, I still think that the negatives outweigh the positives - registering is free, requires very little time, and would clear up a lot of confusion about what this board is and what you can expect here. But that's just my opinion.

Actually it's not about traffic at all.

The AmtrakTrains static website was created by a very young Anthony many years ago now. He saw a void in the amount of information available on the net about Amtrak; Amtrak itself only had a booking engine on the net at that time basically. So he created a site to try to provide some answers to questions that people would be likely to ask. The forum was added a few years later as forum software started to become available, as that allowed people to ask questions directly and get answers from Anthony and a few others. I probably came along about a year after he started that forum and started posting.

Over the years the static website more or less disappeared except for a home page that basically says, visit the forum.

But it is because of that original desire to answer questions of those wondering about things related to Amtrak that this site exists, and to honor that original intent that we continue to allow guest postings. Not everyone wants to join an online forum for various reasons, which may or may not seem valid to us. But many also only want to ask a question or two, and then know that they will most likely never return, so they don't want the hassle of signing up to do that.

So for as long as we can continue to adequately manage the spammers who would love to take advantage of the guest posting feature, we will continue to allow guest postings to continue to honor the original intent to help that inspired Anthony so many years ago to create AmtrakTrains.com.

It is sad, but there are more of me. Most of my peer group had just graduated high school when 9/11 occurred.

So we know two types of security oversight. Pre 9/11- Parental Oversight and Post 9/11- Government Oversight. We don't remember ever not having oversight in our lives. As young parents, we talk about this often. As sad as I am for my generation, it is even sadder for my sons, who might not be able to go to school or a movie without fear. Sad state all around.

 

[Guest]

Trust me.. I get what you are saying. I'm just trying to flip the coin around and say why does that ID check make you feel safer when flying?

Building upon this point; let me point out that at least 2 of the terrorists that died when their planes hit the Twin Towers were carrying valid NJ Driver Licenses. ID checks didn't stop that from happening!

Furthermore, the reason that we American's can no longer drive over the border with Canada with nothing more than a birth cert and a Driver License is because the heavily trained border agents couldn't always spot a fake one. With 50 states, each having multiple types of licenses, it was simply a monumental task for them to spot one. Amtrak personnel have never received any training on how to spot a fake one.

So any check of ID's is really nothing more than security theater, its a feel good measure. It makes us feel good, but it does nothing to deter those intent on harm. Again, it certainly didn't stop 9/11.

I know that it doesn't stop EVERYTHING. I just think that more visible security, might be good to prevent some things.

To validate my complaint further (even taking a legal thought at it), the Amtrak website says that you need a valid ID to board. So in my opinion, they did not offer the oversight/safety that they disclosed to me when I purchased a ticket. Whether or not that safety/oversight works is another discussion, but if I bought the ticket with the understanding that was their policy and they didn't execute that policy, I think I have a valid complaint.

 

[jimhudson]

Good thing that no-one can Fake an ID!! More So called Security, we seem to be Copying the Worst Aspects of the Undesirable Places to Live and Visit what with Homeland Security Departments, Passports to visit anywhere outside the US including our NAFTA

Neighbors Mexico and Canada! :blink:

"Papers Please" used to be Chilling Words in the Dictatorships of the World! Big Brother Loves Security Theater like this! :help:

 

[D.P. Roberts]

The only thing I disagree with is guest postings. I understand why they allow guest postings - it undoubtedly brings in more traffic. However, I still think that the negatives outweigh the positives - registering is free, requires very little time, and would clear up a lot of confusion about what this board is and what you can expect here. But that's just my opinion.

Actually it's not about traffic at all.... But it is because of that original desire to answer questions of those wondering about things related to Amtrak that this site exists, and to honor that original intent that we continue to allow guest postings. Not everyone wants to join an online forum for various reasons, which may or may not seem valid to us. But many also only want to ask a question or two, and then know that they will most likely never return, so they don't want the hassle of signing up to do that.

Alan, I apologize if my remark sounded disparaging, I did not intend that. By "traffic" I meant exactly what you said - allowing more people access to this forum and answering their questions. I think we just disagree on how best to do that - which is perfectly okay, as you're an admin & it's your hard work that keeps this site running! I agree that a lot of people post here with just a quick question and little desire to return. I just think a lot of people with quick questions probably have 10 other questions that they OUGHT to have asked, and didn't. Perhaps some of those people might have poked around a little more & learned more if they had invested the time to register.

In summary, is it better to help 100 people with 1 question each, or 20 people with 5 questions? I dunno, it's your site, and I get the point. You're helping Amtrak passengers in the best way you can.

However, I think the OP in this thread is a good example of someone who would have benefited from more research before his first trip. He and his guest brother expected an airline-level of security, and didn't see it. There have been dozens (if not hundreds) of posts here about security, and how it's different from the airlines. If he would have done a little research into Amtrak security, he wouldn't have been so disappointed. Of course, he was a member, (but his guest brother wasn't), so simply becoming a member doesn't fix everything, but perhaps it helps...

I have an idea - perhaps we should have a sticky at the top of the forum (to go with the other 4 stickies) called "Amtrak 101", which could educate new passengers on the ins-and-outs of Amtrak travel? Many forums have a thread like that with a "please read this before posting!" message with it. If it covered basics - coach vs sleepers, restrooms, the dining car, ticketing & security, etc. - perhaps many of these problems could be avoided.

 

[AlanB]

To validate my complaint further (even taking a legal thought at it), the Amtrak website says that you need a valid ID to board. So in my opinion, they did not offer the oversight/safety that they disclosed to me when I purchased a ticket. Whether or not that safety/oversight works is another discussion, but if I bought the ticket with the understanding that was their policy and they didn't execute that policy, I think I have a valid complaint.

If you visit with a ticket agent for any reason, you will be asked for ID.

And on board the train, Amtrak's policy worked out in cooperation with the TSA, is that random ID checks are performed. The current method since the start of eTicketing is that as the conductor is checking tickets, his/her iPhone will pop up a special message based upon random computer selection that requires him/her to check ID's. Because you were in a sleeper, the odds are good that you might not ever see/hear that happen. However, had you been riding in coach and paying attention (IE. not wearing headphones) you would have heard and possibly seen it as it would be impossible for the conductor to get through the entire car without their phone requiring one or two checks at least.

And that is why the Amtrak website, published materials, etc., all state that one must have valid ID.

 

[AlanB]

Alan, I apologize if my remark sounded disparaging, I did not intend that.

No worries, I didn't think that.

By "traffic" I meant exactly what you said - allowing more people access to this forum and answering their questions. I think we just disagree on how best to do that - which is perfectly okay, as you're an admin & it's your hard work that keeps this site running! I agree that a lot of people post here with just a quick question and little desire to return. I just think a lot of people with quick questions probably have 10 other questions that they OUGHT to have asked, and didn't. Perhaps some of those people might have poked around a little more & learned more if they had invested the time to register.

I rather doubt that forcing them to join will make them ask more questions. In fact, I suspect that they simply won't bother to ask any questions.

I have an idea - perhaps we should have a sticky at the top of the forum (to go with the other 4 stickies) called "Amtrak 101", which could educate new passengers on the ins-and-outs of Amtrak travel? Many forums have a thread like that with a "please read this before posting!" message with it. If it covered basics - coach vs sleepers, restrooms, the dining car, ticketing & security, etc. - perhaps many of these problems could be avoided.

We've got an entire forum devoted to Amtrak 101.

 

[Ispolkom]

I know that it doesn't stop EVERYTHING. I just think that more visible security, might be good to prevent some things.

Or it might be (will be) a complete waste of time, and a wretched coarsening of our society. Look at what has gotten Amtrak passengers killed. It isn't squinty-eyed miscreants on the train. It's gravel trucks at grade crossings, barges at bridges, and the odd act of track sabotage.

Personally, living in the Soviet Union gave me a great aversion to having my papers demanded by internal security officers, and think it loopy to think more ID checks and more bag checks will make us safer. They are like the guy who looks for his missing keys under the street lamp, because it's so much easier to see there than down the street, where he actually dropped them.

And I write this as a guy who's about the least likely to get hassled by the man: a middle-aged, balding, overweight white guy in khakis traveling with his wife. The more security theater you have, in my experience, the more people who are younger, browner-skinned, more tattooed get profiled, and that isn't right.

But now we're into politics, so this is my last comment in this thread.

 

[SarahZ]

As sad as I am for my generation, it is even sadder for my sons, who might not be able to go to school or a movie without fear. Sad state all around.

Children learn fear if they're taught to be fearful. There is nothing wrong with teaching a child to be mindful of their surroundings, but it does no good to instill fear. Things like this happened when I was a child, but the news wasn't as in-your-face-24-hours as it is today (thank goodness). My parents simply told us there were bad people out there and left it at that.

As such, I am aware that I could die at any moment, but I don't worry about it. If I did, I'd be wasting my life worrying when I should be enjoying things. I'd be scared to fly, or take a train, or drive on the freeway. I'd be scared to go to a movie, send my kids to school, or sit in a lecture hall at a university. Why waste the precious years we DO have on this planet worrying about when those years will be cut short?

I'm not trying to lecture you. Please don't take it that way. I simply don't think that fear is worth it. Vigilance, yes. Fear, no.

 

[SarahZ]

As an example, my mom was freaking out about my upcoming trip to SF. She thinks the plane will crash, we'll get lost, we'll get mugged, there will be an earthquake, I'll get eaten by a shark on my way to Alcatraz, all kinds of stuff.

I told her that we could stay home, but what's to say our gas stove won't explode, we won't get hit by a deadly tornado, we won't get into a car accident on the way to the grocery store, etc. That didn't make her feel better (she yelled at me ^_^ ), but it got my point across.