Increased Prices Have Shut Me Down, Again.

[Nathanael]

We've ridden the Crescent many times ATL or ATN-NOL, and it never seemed very full.

That's because it wasn't. Ridership on the Crescent drops off sharply south of Atlanta. Amtrak wants to cut off cars at Atlanta, but doesn't have a place to put them.

When we say that a train fills up, we mean that on the *peak segment*, on *peak days*, a given train is full.

As someone else pointed out, the Silver Service peaks in the winter, and the Chicago-West Coast trains (also the Coast Starlight) peak in the summer. The train I've been on which was actually full (for part of the trip) was in August from Denver to Chicago. The trains look a lot emptier in the off-season. The Chicago-East Coast trains also peak in the summer but are busy year-round.

Only on a few peak days in the peak season will the train actually sell out, even in the peak segment.

Each train also has a peak segment. In the case of the California Zephyr, it's somewhere between Denver-Chicago, because traffic drops off west of there. It will actually often be from some random station in the middle to some other random station in the middle, since the combination of a Lincoln, NE - Chicago trip and an Omaha, NE - Denver trip would fill the train up between Lincoln and Omaha.

Even on the peak day, the train will only be sold out for the peak segment. If you're asleep during the peak segment, you won't even notice. (My habit of waking up every time the train stops is the only reason I know that large groups got on and off in the middle of the night.)

Now, I have been told that Amtrak has legal (though large) limits on how much it can vary the price for the same city pair on the same train in the same accomodations. So, if the train is selling out on Tuesday, and unpopular on Wednesday, Amtrak can't slash the Wednesday price by 99% from the Tuesday price. Even if Amtrak can, it's hard for them to predict exactly which days are going to be popular to that degree.

Could Amtrak fill the trains up more often by cutting prices? Yeah, but unless they knew exactly which days to cut prices on, that would probably reduce revenue, as a previous poster noted. If the average load factor is 70%, this means the trains are filling up at peak, using an old rule of thumb. This is very likely to be the maximum revenue point as well.

FWIW, it's a bit simpler to spot how full the train is on the Auto Train, which is end-to-end traffic only. It actually has had declining ridership in recent years.

 

[Nathanael]

I've never once seen an LD train where every single coach seat was occupied or otherwise spoken for.

I have. And I don't travel that often. If you watch Amsnag trying to get end-to-end tickets, you'll see sold-out trains happen occasionally. I saw it in August on the California Zephyr between Denver and Chicago.

In most cases there are large blocks of seats cordoned off with nobody in them. According to the staff this is for large groups that will be boarding later, even though in many cases they simply remain empty until the end of the line.

That's weird; you clearly saw something strange happen. When I've seen the group blocks cordoned off -- which I've only seen on the LSL -- I've always seen those seats fill up. (In the *oddest* places -- why was a large group boarding in rural Ohio in the middle of the night?)

 

[AlanB]

FWIW, it's a bit simpler to spot how full the train is on the Auto Train, which is end-to-end traffic only. It actually has had declining ridership in recent years.

Huh? :unsure:

AT Ridership:

2003 - 199,804

2004 - 197,483 Decrease

2005 - 204,698 Increase

2006 - 207,544 Increase

2007 - 217,822 Increase

2008 - 234,839 Increase

2009 - 232,955 Decrease

2010 - 244,252 Increase

2011 - 259,944 Increase

2012 - 264,096 Increase

So from start to finish, the overall trend is up, not down.

 

[Nathanael]

Thanks for the correction. Clearly I last looked at the Auto Train numbers in 2009. :embarassed:

 

[Texan Eagle]

That's weird; you clearly saw something strange happen. When I've seen the group blocks cordoned off -- which I've only seen on the LSL -- I've always seen those seats fill up. (In the *oddest* places -- why was a large group boarding in rural Ohio in the middle of the night?)

No, not weird. Happens more than you'd think. I was on SWC last year with one half of a coach completely blocked off for "groups that might board later" and as a result I was not given a window seat, instead asked to share an aisle seat with someone else. We start from LA, I wait until all California stops are done hoping someone will board, no, so I ask if I can take one of those window seats. Reply- "no, its for groups that might board later", entire night spent, early morning Flagstaff, I ask if I can take up one vacant window, nope "they are for groups that might board later", all the way into ABQ where I got off, still cordoned off, no "groups" ever boarded. :|

 

[Texan Eagle]

Today's episode of "Amtrak Is Too Expensive For Me To Use". A friend and me wanted to go from San Jose to Sacramento to see the Railroad Museum. Being railfans we thought we'll take Capitol Corridor, but the price was way too high- $39 per person one way, so between two of us it would cost us $156 Instead we went to San Jose Diridon station in the morning, saw the Capitol Corridor train depart with around 20-25 passengers total in the train, started driving, reached Sacramento in 2 hours flat, roamed the Amtrak station, then saw the same Corridor train roll in finally, again no more than couple dozen passengers alighted, but hey, I am told Amtrak trains run full so there is no need to reduce fares to attract more crowds. Fine, whatever floats their boat (train?)

Eventually it cost us $23.77 in fuel, $9 in parking, and add whatever additional amount you'd think about wear and tear my car underwent, it still cost us significantly less than half of what Amtrak would have cost!

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Today's episode of "Amtrak Is Too Expensive For Me To Use". A friend and me wanted to go from San Jose to Sacramento to see the Railroad Museum. Being railfans we thought we'll take Capitol Corridor, but the price was way too high- $39 per person one way, so between two of us it would cost us $156 Instead we went to San Jose Diridon station in the morning, saw the Capitol Corridor train depart with around 20-25 passengers total in the train, started driving, reached Sacramento in 2 hours flat, roamed the Amtrak station, then saw the same Corridor train roll in finally, again no more than couple dozen passengers alighted, but hey, I am told Amtrak trains run full so there is no need to reduce fares to attract more crowds. Fine, whatever floats their boat (train?)
Eventually it cost us $23.77 in fuel, $9 in parking, and add whatever additional amount you'd think about wear and tear my car underwent, it still cost us significantly less than half of what Amtrak would have cost!

According to Google, the round trip from San Jose to Sacramento is 240 miles.

According to the government's 2013 Standard Mileage Rates for 2013, you'd be reimbursed 56.5 cents per mile.

So, that would cost $135 for mileage + $9 for parking = $144 total, or only $12 less than Amtrak.

After 4 pages of discussion, I think the only thing we've established is that Amtrak's "value" is relative. It totally depends on what's important in the mind of the person making the decision.

 

[roadman3313]

That's when you go on the weekend and use the 50% off coupon!

But I understand... I take the train and commute on the train with a 10-ride to catch a few more zzz's and avoid the traffic as it is rush hour... but driving takes a little less time in the off-peak and saves money overall since I don't pay for parking and get 30+ MPH on the freeway for the trip from the East Bay to Sac.

Weekend ridership is low which is why they have 50% off on the weekends now. But yeah... tell that to me on the San Joaquin train I took today to see the detour route through Franklin Canyon... beautiful... although I think the first car were just railfans looking out the front of the cab car since the engineer, pilot, and conductors were kind enough to leave the door open so you could see straight out the front window given all the cameras everyone had.

$17.10 per ride on the Capitol Corridor during rush hour with a 10-ride seems much more appealing to me than $26 during the off-peak with no traffic on I-80... probably why I still stick to the train... although at this point, even though I'd miss relaxing on the train, napping, and doing work using the wi-fi... just looking at moving closer to work (despite the much higher cost of living).

An as mentioned above it all is relative to personal preference... some feel time is money... others like to not deal with the traffic or be able to relax a bit more... I drive about 100+ miles a day at work already so driving another 150 miles roundtrip to/from home before/after work is just a bit much for me...

 

[June the Coach Rider]

There are also people who cannot drive long distance and need to get up and walk around every hour or so. Driving 150+ miles which would normally take just under 3 hours if you were able to drive straight thru at the speed limit. Disabled people cannot always drive somewhere and flying can also be out of the question because of health issues. The train even though it can take much longer is a necessity for people who need it. Also I consider the train ride as part of the vacation, being able to see everything without having to drive myself and being able to nap when I want, eat when I want is so worth it.

I know some people swear they cannot do coach for LD trains, but I just finished the 62 hour TE and would jump right back on it again, all in coach. Some people can sleep in coach seats, some cannot. I am lucky to be able to and would not pay the high price for a roomette. If a roomette was really inexpensive, then I might treat myself to it, but I am not so sure I would even do it then. I cannot justify the price, you are isolated in your roomette or have to go into the SSL in order to interact with other passengers. In coach, you interact right from your seat. Coach is a little community and friends can be made. Only having the SSL or the diner to interact is not what I travel the train for. But that is my opinion, I will get off my coach soap box now.

 

[Texan Eagle]

That's when you go on the weekend and use the 50% off coupon!
But I understand... I take the train and commute on the train with a 10-ride to catch a few more zzz's and avoid the traffic as it is rush hour... but driving takes a little less time in the off-peak and saves money overall since I don't pay for parking and get 30+ MPH on the freeway for the trip from the East Bay to Sac.

Weekend ridership is low which is why they have 50% off on the weekends now.

Wait, where is 50% off on weekends for Capitol Corridor? I tried booking tickets for yesterday (Saturday) and did not see any mention of it on the site, nor did the fare reflect 50% off fare. If it is $19.50 instead of $39 per person, we would have definitely taken Amtrak to Sac!

 

[chakk]

I don't think its right to compare sleeper to coach just because the train takes longer.

Takes longer to get where you are going in sleeper than coach if the sleepers are on the rear end of the train.

 

[roadman3313]

http://www.amtrak.com/50-off-weekend-travel-capitol-corridor-train?WT.mc_t=CapCorweekendtravel_HP3_WSP&WT.mc_n=CapCorWkndpage&WT.mc_r=365&tiid=54250&audienceId=0&rtTracking=1

I do believe it is 3-day advance purchase though so it wouldn't work for a last minute trip. But if you know by the Wednesday ahead of time then you are good to go... and another tip is it is also good on associated Thruways as well... so if you decide to take a trip south to LAX you can book the CC to SJC, Coastal Bus to SLO, and PS to LAX and it will still allow for the 50% off. Works only on the southbound taking the CC first but that's still a secret added benefit beyond just the CC route!

 

[JayPea]

It is very true that it's clear that the advantages over one mode of transportation over the other depends entirely on the person and the circumstances under which they are traveling. Just for the heck of it, I figured times and approximate prices for me if I were to travel from my home to Seattle, 270 miles away, on a randomly chosen date (April 1st):

Driving, it is 270 miles, right down to the 1/10th of a mile. Driving time for me, as I've done this several times, is about 4 1/2 hrs (or less, depending on how many cops are patrolling the route) :lol:

Cost for gas: about $31.50, based on current prices and gas mileage.

Bus: I can catch a Thruway bus right in front of my house for $66.

Time: 9 hrs, 15 minutes total, including a layover in Spokane

Amtrak: with AAA discount, it's $47.70 from Spokane, coach fare Even though it's a wee-hours-of -the-morning boarding in Spokane, I don't see the point of getting a room for that short a distance. Factoring in gas used to drive the 55 miles or so to Spokane and parking at Spokane's station, it's about $59.

Time: 7 hrs, 40 minutes.

Plane: Fare from Spokane to Seattle is $146.90!!!!! Add in gas and parking at a lot near that I found which offers great service and is much cheaper to use near Spokane International Airport (GEG, for those who like codes ) and it's about $160.

Time: 1hr, and about 20 minutes of that is ground time in Spokane and Seattle.

Which method of transportation is best: whichever method suits your needs!!!

For longer distances, I'm limited by vacation time. My long-distance Amtrak trips have always been shared with my uncle, who lives in Illinois. I don't have time to take the train there, and get any kind of an Amtrak trip in, so I fly there and take Amtrak back. And on long-distance train trips, I won't travel by coach unless forced into it. Been there, done that, and don't want to do it again. I have to have a sleeper. That means AGR, for the most part. But YMMV, as they say.

 

[Nathanael]

That's weird; you clearly saw something strange happen. When I've seen the group blocks cordoned off -- which I've only seen on the LSL -- I've always seen those seats fill up. (In the *oddest* places -- why was a large group boarding in rural Ohio in the middle of the night?)

No, not weird. Happens more than you'd think. I was on SWC last year with one half of a coach completely blocked off for "groups that might board later" and as a result I was not given a window seat, instead asked to share an aisle seat with someone else. We start from LA, I wait until all California stops are done hoping someone will board, no, so I ask if I can take one of those window seats. Reply- "no, its for groups that might board later", entire night spent, early morning Flagstaff, I ask if I can take up one vacant window, nope "they are for groups that might board later", all the way into ABQ where I got off, still cordoned off, no "groups" ever boarded. :|

Ah. So you DIDN'T ride the whole way. The group undoubtedly showed up later (sometime before Chicago).

The large group is most likely to have boarded at Raton, probably coming from Philmont Boy Scout Ranch.

Now, the conductors were, to be fair to you, being sloppy. Accordingly, *passengers getting off west of Raton* could have been allowed to sit in those seats. But I understand why the conductors were trying to "keep it simple".

 

[Ryan]

Not only did you not ride all the way, you rode less than half of the way.

Even if there wasn't a large group being explicitly planned for, a handful of families of 4 or 5 that may be boarding in the middle of the night certainly appreciate being able to board and gets seats together and not end up scattered all over the coach (or multiple coaches) so some people can get a window seat or a seat pair all to themselves.

The practice makes perfect sense, even if you find it personally inconvienent.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Ah. So you DIDN'T ride the whole way.

If he wasn't riding the whole way and the group wasn't boarding until later in the trip then why couldn't they allow him to have a window seat? Seems like a reasonable request to me. If Amtrak weren't so indifferent about these sorts of things they might be able to win over more long term customers who remain active passengers even when the cost of petrol drops and/or airfares become cheaper.

The group undoubtedly showed up later (sometime before Chicago).

It's certainly possible that a group showed up later in the trip, but I've ridden trains all the way to the terminus when no group boarded. I consider myself to be pretty familiar with Amtrak at this point and either outcome seems equally plausible to me.

 

[Anderson]

Based on my experience on the Zephyr, they try to keep the O/D folks for the first 8-10 stops out of CHI in some sort of order. They do something similar on the Meteor, too, grouping folks for RVR and other early stops together...and then just dumping all the FL passengers into a couple of coaches together.

 

[Ryan]

Ah. So you DIDN'T ride the whole way.

If he wasn't riding the whole way and the group wasn't boarding until later in the trip then why couldn't they allow him to have a window seat? Seems like a reasonable request to me. If Amtrak weren't so indifferent about these sorts of things they might be able to win over more long term customers who remain active passengers even when the cost of petrol drops and/or airfares become cheaper.

Because neither the conductor nor I are all that interested in waking you up in the middle of the night to move when I board with my 3 (hypothetical) kids so that we can all sit together?

Of course the whole problem goes away if we can develop a system where seats can be pre-selected in advance.

 

[Ispolkom]

I have been on trains (the Cardinal, and the City of New Orleans south of Memphis) where entire coaches were closed, seemingly for crew convenience. In any case, in both cases it was during the day, there weren't any large groups boarding, and I did ride those trains from the beginning of the route to either the end (the City of New Orleans) or the point at which passengers could no longer board (the Cardinal).

On the latter train I spent a few hours riding in the empty coach, as my sister was taking a nap in our bedroom and the coach seats are more comfortable than those in the Sightseer Lounge. An assistant conductor asked me rather sharply what I was doing sitting there, but was mollified when he learned that I wasn't a coach passenger, but rather from the sleeper.

I assume that higher prices mean that Amtrak is enjoying higher utilization. But is that true? Are passenger-miles (especially sleeper passenger miles) increasing on long-distance trains?

 

[SarahZ]

I know some people swear they cannot do coach for LD trains, but I just finished the 62 hour TE and would jump right back on it again, all in coach. Some people can sleep in coach seats, some cannot. I am lucky to be able to and would not pay the high price for a roomette. If a roomette was really inexpensive, then I might treat myself to it, but I am not so sure I would even do it then. I cannot justify the price, you are isolated in your roomette or have to go into the SSL in order to interact with other passengers. In coach, you interact right from your seat. Coach is a little community and friends can be made. Only having the SSL or the diner to interact is not what I travel the train for. But that is my opinion, I will get off my coach soap box now.

I'm speaking from personal experience when I say I cannot travel in Coach for an overnight trip. I can't sleep in the seats, and I can't stand the noise. I also don't enjoy interacting with strangers and making small talk because I am extremely shy. Plus, I talk to strangers, solve their problems, and make nicey-nice small talk on the phone all day; when I'm on vacation, all I want is peace and quiet and to be left alone. So, in my case, Coach isn't an option.

I wish it were, though, since it's cheaper, and I do like that the seats have more space to spread out. I'm not knocking Coach at all. I think it's a great option for a lot of people. It's just not an option for me.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Ah. So you DIDN'T ride the whole way.

If he wasn't riding the whole way and the group wasn't boarding until later in the trip then why couldn't they allow him to have a window seat? Seems like a reasonable request to me. If Amtrak weren't so indifferent about these sorts of things they might be able to win over more long term customers who remain active passengers even when the cost of petrol drops and/or airfares become cheaper.

Because neither the conductor nor I are all that interested in waking you up in the middle of the night to move when I board with my 3 (hypothetical) kids so that we can all sit together?

Of course the whole problem goes away if we can develop a system where seats can be pre-selected in advance.

Even with the current system the conductor has no idea how many seats are free or when the next big family is boarding? Unless I'm missing something if you're a group and want to be seated together isn't in incumbent upon you to book your trip as a group? If you're a group in the reservation system then it should be easy enough to check if anyone will need to be bothered in the middle of the night. I'm not saying that conductors need to read minds. However if someone takes the time to personally request to be moved in order to have a more desirable seat or to get away from someone they don't want to be seated with does that really need to be treated as an impossible request? Offer to look at the manifest and if things look workable then why not? So many of Amtrak's policies seem to be a product of indifference and inertia. If I'm unhappy with my compartment and want to move nobody seems to mind looking into it, even to the point of asking folks in the middle of the night to take a room they were not originally booked in, but if I want another coach seat suddenly it's a huge problem to resolve? That seems completely backwards to me.

 

[Ryan]

Unless I'm missing something if you're a group and want to be seated together isn't in incumbent upon you to book your trip as a group? If you're a group in the reservation system then it should be easy enough to check if anyone will need to be bothered in the middle of the night.

I wasn't aware that Amtrak would give my family of 4 a group rate. According to their website, they do groups over 20, so that really isn't a solution for most:http://www.amtrak.com/group-travel-requests

If I'm unhappy with my compartment and want to move nobody seems to mind looking into it, even to the point of asking folks in the middle of the night to take a room they were not originally booked in

When has this ever happened?

but if I want another coach seat suddenly it's a huge problem to resolve? That seems completely backwards to me.

Coach seats aren't booked the same way. You can look at a manifest and see if a particular room is booked down the line. That's obviously impossible if you don't assign seats before boarding.

 

[rusty spike]

It's certainly possible that a group showed up later in the trip, but I've ridden trains all the way to the terminus when no group boarded. I consider myself to be pretty familiar with Amtrak at this point and either outcome seems equally plausible to me.

An empty coach at the end of the train could also mean it is "bad-ordered" or for some reason dead-heading somewhere and revenue passengers are not permitted to occupy it. I was on an MRR when this occurred.

 

[AlanB]

Ah. So you DIDN'T ride the whole way.

If he wasn't riding the whole way and the group wasn't boarding until later in the trip then why couldn't they allow him to have a window seat? Seems like a reasonable request to me. If Amtrak weren't so indifferent about these sorts of things they might be able to win over more long term customers who remain active passengers even when the cost of petrol drops and/or airfares become cheaper.

It's not a matter of being indifferent. It's a matter of me-too-ism. If they let him sit there, then someone who is going all the way will want the same privilege. And they won't want to hear the explanation that he gets to sit there because he gets off before the group gets on and they don't. All they'll see is him getting special privileges.

Yes, there are some reasonable folks who will understand that reasoning. But some won't and its just easier not to setup the circumstances for confrontation.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Unless I'm missing something if you're a group and want to be seated together isn't in incumbent upon you to book your trip as a group? If you're a group in the reservation system then it should be easy enough to check if anyone will need to be bothered in the middle of the night.

I wasn't aware that Amtrak would give my family of 4 a group rate.

Where did I refer to a discounted group rate? Do you really go out of your way to create separate tickets for each individual member of your family just for the heck of it? I must admit I didn't realize that a family which expects to sit together would go through that much trouble just to needlessly complicate matters for everyone else. No wonder the conductors are so grouchy about it.

If I'm unhappy with my compartment and want to move nobody seems to mind looking into it, even to the point of asking folks in the middle of the night to take a room they were not originally booked in

When has this ever happened?

I have requested a change of rooms for my benefit and had my room changed for the benefit of others on the Sunset Limited and Texas Eagle. I didn't record specific dates, times, and names because I didn't realize it would be a controversial claim. I just assumed it was SOP. So long as it was the same size on the same floor I had originally selected I didn't really care which room I got unless something was broken or disgusting.

It's not a matter of being indifferent. It's a matter of me-too-ism. If they let him sit there, then someone who is going all the way will want the same privilege. And they won't want to hear the explanation that he gets to sit there because he gets off before the group gets on and they don't. All they'll see is him getting special privileges.

You sound like you have some examples of when previously calm customers saw one person move to another seat and immediately went crazy with chair envy and turned the train into a moving mosh pit. Should be interesting to hear about it.