Hoosier State in Jeopardy

[TML]

It has been reported that due to funding disagreements between Amtrak and the State of Indiana, the Hoosier State could be eliminated as early as next October.

I just hope that this will somehow serve as a "wake up call" to pave the way for increased frequencies on the Cardinal...

 

[Shanghai]

I assume that when you say next October, that means October 2013.

I'm booked on the Hoosier State this October!!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Reallyt, the Hoosier State is pretty useless other than for shunting cars between CHI and IND. Daily Cardinal service would be far better.

 

[afigg]

I assume that when you say next October, that means October 2013.

I'm booked on the Hoosier State this October!!

Yes, the deadline is October 1, 2013. This is not coming as a surprise because Indiana has shown no to little interest in providing the soon to be required operating subsidy for the 4 day a week service.

There is an IndyStar newspaper article on the funding situation: Lafayette may lose daily Amtrak service next year. Excerpts:

LAFAYETTE, Ind. -- The northern Indiana city of Lafayette could lose its daily Amtrak passenger service next year unless a funding dispute between state and federal officials is resolved.
The Journal & Courier reports Amtrak has confirmed that it plans to end the Hoosier State route that runs from Lafayette to Chicago effective Oct. 1, 2013.

IN DOT surprisingly appears to be confused about the situation because the requirement for state support of trains was set in the 2008 PRIIA act. Amtrak is working out the operating support amounts with all the other states.

As for the dispute itself, Amtrak maintains that states are responsible for fully funding routes shorter than 750 miles and that the funding methodology was established by Congress in 2008.
The Indiana Department of Transportation doesn't agree.

"Our understanding is that the methodology was a discussion and was not a commitment to subsidize the Hoosier State," Will Wingfield, INDOT spokesman, told the Journal & Courier. "There was no money provided along with the federal mandate. It is still not entirely known what Amtrak is requesting of Indiana."

The best near term solution is a daily Cardinal service but there are track capacity issues with CSX and the Buckingham Branch Railroad. The longer term solution would be for Indiana to support a multiple daily frequency corridor service between CHI and Indianapolis with major track upgrades, but that won't happen anytime soon.

 

[Gratt]

Honestly, the Hoosier state in its current incarnation is a waste of a train set.

I "get" why its schedule is tied with the Card but it does not make the timing any better. Either create a real daily Hoosier independent of the Card or use the train set to increase service where there is demand.

 

[zephyr17]

Well, PRIIA is pretty clear in my book and as a resident of state with state supported trains, while I wish there was more federal support, it at least levels the playing field. If ID(i)OT didn't understand it, my thought is they weren't paying attention until they got the official notification.

With that said, if Indiana has to pay for it, they ought to get better times at Indiana points, a quicker schedule navigating through Chicago, and separate it from the Cardinal. And a cafe car. The present incarnation of the Hoosier State is pretty pathetic.

 

[Amtrak George]

I'm confused (I hate it when that happens): I didn't think the Hoosier State was ever one of those state supported trains. It is not listed thus in the timetable although many others are.

I guess Amtrak is looking at this situation saying, well, the law says states are supposed to support shorter runs within those states. But has Indiana ever paid for this train, or is this a new request? If this is a new request, maybe it would have been better for Amtrak and Indiana to discuss things before releasing this to the media (unless they already did). :blink:

Most of us know the main reason Amtrak needs the Hoosier State is to shuttle cars back and forth between Chicago and Beech Grove shops near Indianapolis. What will they do about that if they discontinue the Hoosier State? :help:

Well, if the state pays for it the train needs a better schedule and some kind of food service. OR Amtrak just needs to run the Cardinal daily IF they can get host RR permission.

 

[AlanB]

I'm confused (I hate it when that happens): I didn't think the Hoosier State was ever one of those state supported trains. It is not listed thus in the timetable although many others are.

The HS is not currently a State supported train. It came into being when Amtrak cancelled the Kentucky Cardinal. Amtrak was willing to take the losses on the train because they wanted two things. One, they wanted to hang onto the daily time slot that the K-Card had given them. This is helpful towards eventually running daily the whole way to NY.

Second they wanted the daily ability to shuttle cars to/from Beech Grove.

PRIIA rules say that the HS cannot continue to exist anymore, unless Indiana or by some odd miracle Illinois suddenly steps up to cover the losses. There is nothing Amtrak can do at this point as it's been taken out of their hands by the law. I'm not even sure if restoring the K-Card would get them over the 750 mile mark, at which point they could keep it running.

 

[Amtrak George]

Thanks, Alan. I'm unconfused now!

 

[MrFSS]

I'm not even sure if restoring the K-Card would get them over the 750 mile mark, at which point they could keep it running.

If you are talking about the train that ran between Chicago and Louisville (actually just across the river in Indiana) then that is about 300 miles as the highway runs. Maybe a little longer the way the train ran.

 

[Anderson]

I'm not even sure if restoring the K-Card would get them over the 750 mile mark, at which point they could keep it running.

If you are talking about the train that ran between Chicago and Louisville (actually just across the river in Indiana) then that is about 300 miles as the highway runs. Maybe a little longer the way the train ran.

It looks like the only way to stitch that together would be to run all the way to Nashville (or something like that). That's not happening...Amtrak just doesn't have the cars for such an operation, and a dead-end run into Nashville would (IMHO) be a thinly-patronized run given both likely track speeds and the lack of anything to connect to outside of CHI.

One thing I do wonder about, though...where does the Card hit the BBRR? I can't help but wonder if there's not some way to get a full service that "pairs" with the existing Card (say, a resurrected Hilltopper or something on the Powhatan Arrow's old route) so that something can be preserved in that slot.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I'm not even sure if restoring the K-Card would get them over the 750 mile mark, at which point they could keep it running.

If you are talking about the train that ran between Chicago and Louisville (actually just across the river in Indiana) then that is about 300 miles as the highway runs. Maybe a little longer the way the train ran.

It looks like the only way to stitch that together would be to run all the way to Nashville (or something like that). That's not happening...Amtrak just doesn't have the cars for such an operation, and a dead-end run into Nashville would (IMHO) be a thinly-patronized run given both likely track speeds and the lack of anything to connect to outside of CHI.

One thing I do wonder about, though...where does the Card hit the BBRR? I can't help but wonder if there's not some way to get a full service that "pairs" with the existing Card (say, a resurrected Hilltopper or something on the Powhatan Arrow's old route) so that something can be preserved in that slot.

hits BB at Clifton Forge

 

[AlanB]

I'm not even sure if restoring the K-Card would get them over the 750 mile mark, at which point they could keep it running.

If you are talking about the train that ran between Chicago and Louisville (actually just across the river in Indiana) then that is about 300 miles as the highway runs. Maybe a little longer the way the train ran.

It looks like the only way to stitch that together would be to run all the way to Nashville (or something like that). That's not happening...Amtrak just doesn't have the cars for such an operation, and a dead-end run into Nashville would (IMHO) be a thinly-patronized run given both likely track speeds and the lack of anything to connect to outside of CHI.

One thing I do wonder about, though...where does the Card hit the BBRR? I can't help but wonder if there's not some way to get a full service that "pairs" with the existing Card (say, a resurrected Hilltopper or something on the Powhatan Arrow's old route) so that something can be preserved in that slot.

hits BB at Clifton Forge

And that's 710 miles from Chicago. So that doesn't help, even if it made sense to terminate there.

 

[Amtrak Cajun]

It would be easier to make the Cardinal daily than to keep the HS going at this point.

If the HS does terminate, the extra cars *and engines* could be used as spares on other routes that would need *or could use* the capacity. Not sure what those routes are, but the opportunity is there. If the Cardinal *even at current schedule* can manage to serve adequately then great, I know we would all love to see the Cardinal go daily, myself included.

As the old saying goes, when one door closes, another one opens, there could be better opportunities ahead, daily Cardinal being one of them. Just my opinion.

 

[afigg]

One thing I do wonder about, though...where does the Card hit the BBRR? I can't help but wonder if there's not some way to get a full service that "pairs" with the existing Card (say, a resurrected Hilltopper or something on the Powhatan Arrow's old route) so that something can be preserved in that slot.

hits BB at Clifton Forge

The Cardinal route branches off from NS to the BB RR at Orange, then to Gordonsville to Charlottesville to Staunton to Clifton Forge. BBRR's website has a handy system map. As I have noted before, Virginia is providing a respectable amount of funding for track maintenance and signal system replacement to the BBRR via the state Shortline Railway Preservation and Development program in increment through FY2015 for the BB North Mountain and Orange subdivisions. So the BB tracks should be getting in better shape in the coming years.

Virginia would benefit from a daily Cardinal service because it would mean a daily CVS to WAS/NYP service with afternoon arrival/departure times. Daily service from VA to WV should attract a much larger customer base than a 3 day a week schedule oddity. How CSX feels about daily service through WV and on the BB is another matter.

 

[Anderson]

Honestly, I think the "easy" option might be to look at a reroute via LYH, ROA, and Bluefield, at least for the "other" days. If you could run that daily, I'd be inclined to keep the existing Cardinal as a connecting "day train" and run the other as an overnight train that connects with it in Cincy (potentially with through cars). Basically, you'd have daily service over the CIN-CHI section of the Card's route, and over the NYP-CVS portion. NYP-CIN is a long enough run to be an LD train; likewise, you could set things up whereby the CVS-CIN section breaks off, runs through WV, and rejoins the "main" train at CIN with whatever hold is needed to make that work while implicitly forcing the CIN-CHI times later by a few hours (and potentially offering decent times for CIN, something that the current route is probably too short to manage).

What this would do for losses on the resulting tangle of trains is anyone's guess. On the one hand, I suspect you'd get a modest increase; on the other hand, having a spaced-out NYP-LYH/ROA connection should increment a lot of revenue to the route (and give the Lynchburger a modest bump as well by offering the "backwards frequency" talked up at times). Better CIN-CHI times WB would also likely help (as might an earlier EB arrival in Indianapolis...sorry, but 11:50 PM is going to register as "no sale" for a lot of people). On the other hand, the CVS-CIN section may end up going to hell in a handbasket in terms of ridership (though it would presumably still have the EB traffic from CIN and points east).

Mind you, this has always been a problem for the Cardinal (and its predecessors)...the route is an awkward merger of two routes that end up being too long for good one-night service while keeping connections in CHI, and far too short to do anything else. In general, I can't help but ponder whether it might not simply be more effective to treat each end (CHI-CIN and CVS-NYP) as a corridor and time it to offer service to those cities while stretching out the middle as needed.

 

[Amtrak George]

I agree that adding routes would be great, but right now with Amtrak hanging on for dear life financially, it is more feasible to change to daily operation on the Cardinal. The crews, facilities, etc. are already in place. I have tried several times to get sleeper space on the Card and it is ALWAYS sold out. I used to ride it in Superliner days when you could get sleeper space on reasonable notice.

I sure hope CSX and the Buckingham Branch RR will agree to daily frequency. The Cardinal will do even better if so, in spite of the slow times and weird hours.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Just out of curiosity since I have not ridden either train are Hoosier State pax able to access the Cardinal Lounge Car? And I guess on non-Cardinal days it is Coaches only with no service.

 

[jis]

CSX does not agree to daily service on BBRR until considerable amount of siding lengthening and other work is completed. There is absolutely zero chance of the Cardinal going daily even if the equipment was readily available to achieve that before 2015.

 

[OBS]

Just out of curiosity since I have not ridden either train are Hoosier State pax able to access the Cardinal Lounge Car? And I guess on non-Cardinal days it is Coaches only with no service.

Just to be clear, these are two separate trains that operate on separate days. On days the Cardinal is running, local pax. are booked into LD coaches and have use of the Cafe/Dinette. The other days are as you suggested w/o food svc.

 

[Paulus]

Why not see instead if Indiana would be willing to support it if the Cardinal were cancelled instead and its sets used for rather more frequent service between Indianapolis and Chicago?

 

[zephyr17]

Why not see instead if Indiana would be willing to support it if the Cardinal were cancelled instead and its sets used for rather more frequent service between Indianapolis and Chicago?

Indiana state government historically is fairly hostile to supporting passenger rail, so probably not. Their bureaucracy clearly was not aware of the PRIIA requirements until they got notified so they are far from pro-active on the subject, too.

 

[jphjaxfl]

When Amtrak first started, Indiana has fairly decent service. Indianpolis has 6 through trains daily; the National LTD from Washington to St. Louis and Kansas City, the South Wind/Floridian from Chicago to Florida and The James Whitcomb Riley/George Washington from Chicago to Cincinnati to Washington and Newport News. The Penn Central was in terrible finacial shape and deferred maintenance on most of their lines through Indiana which was resulting in very late trains, temporary re-routes followed by permanant re-routes. After Conrail took over, many lines that Amtrak used were abandoned. The state of Indiana should have stepped in with some sort of subsidy to maintain the lines. Some of the lines had had respectable speed limits and reasonable schedules before the Penn Central problems. I rode Pennsylvania's South Wind in the mid 1960s when it left Chicago at 8:45AM CT and arrived in Louisville at 4:00PM ET so 6 hours and 15 min to cover 313 miles at an average speed of 50 MPH with stops at Englewood, Logansport Van Station and Indianapolis with flag stops at Seymour and Columbus and a back up move into Louisville Union Station. While going to college in those years, I worked as a desk clerk at a motel between Sellersburg and Jeffersonville, IN in the afternoon when the south bound South Wind thundered by accross the road. You could almost set your watch by time every other day timing. The north bound left Louisville at 12;55PM so I wasn't usually at work when it went by, however, the L&N was more likely to bring the northbound into Louisville late than the Pennsylvania was with the south bound. I think the trackage deterioration in Indiana had a lot to do with the present attitude of the politicians.

 

[Nickrapak]

Question: How often does the Hoosier State run without any additional cars from Beech Grove? I'm thinking that Amtrak might be able to argue before Congress that the Hoosier State serves as a "revenue deadhead" in that the train would have to run anyway to move cars from Chicago to Beech Grove, and opening a car up to passengers serves as an offset to some of the cost of moving the cars. It might not be entirely true, but it's also not entirely a lie: just the way people in DC like it!

 

[Donctor]

Just out of curiosity since I have not ridden either train are Hoosier State pax able to access the Cardinal Lounge Car? And I guess on non-Cardinal days it is Coaches only with no service.

Just to be clear, these are two separate trains that operate on separate days. On days the Cardinal is running, local pax. are booked into LD coaches and have use of the Cafe/Dinette. The other days are as you suggested w/o food svc.

Are the IND cars no longer running on Cardinal days?